Julian Dunn-Johnson

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Waterman is 28 and Zator will turn 30 this year, I think if Dunn is performing (big if- he missed two years), he should be prioritized. I think we have a much better understanding of both waterman and Zator (and the other guys’) ceilings, I think there’s a lot more to Dunn if he continues his delevopment

I get that and agree. We know what Waterman and Zator are. If Dunn is close enough to their level why not bring him in? His style of play and personality could mesh with what we already have, but we need to bring him in to find out. We expand the pool in the process as well.

My point of contention was that Dunn would be a better player after a single season starting, but I don't think that's what you meant when you said "clearly above". You're talking priority.

7 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

 I know Sweden is a better league than Norway and Malmo won the league, but Cornelius is close to our consensus best CB and a part of this is how well he played for Malmo. If Dunn can have a similar impact with HamKam, don’t see why he isn’t in the mix over the other guys we’ve called in and ultimately dropped when better options presented themselves.

I think Cornelius is starting to get overhyped based on his exploits for Malmo. For the national team I haven't seen a big leap forward, but rather a slight improvement. I'd still be interested to see him start over Miller, but I don't agree with the consensus he's our best CB. I don't really think we have a "best CB" at the moment. As for Dunn and HamKam, it just seems like a far cry from the level of Malmo that I don't see how you can say he should be in the mix over the other guys.

Based on potential? Then yes, but it's not as if Ham Kam are the same level of club as Malmo, Montreal, Portland, Nashville, etc. 

 

[Bigandy]

I think that we often compare all CB's but LCB and RCB are 2 different spots. Kennedy at RCB is alot different than at LCB. So Dunn is realistically competeing with bombito, ZMG, Vitoria, LMK, Waterman, LDF, JKL, Smith and zator OR if none are good enough, Cornelius/kennedy on their weak foot. 

Bombito is the only other CB of age from that group with an unknown and potentially higher ceiling. LDF,JKL, and Smith are in the running but a bit young still. 

Once Vitoria retires, I think Bombito and ZMG are the first call ups to bridge the gap between the LDF age group. Dunn could easily overtake either of those 2. I just dont see a world where zator, LMK, or waterman are a better selection than a young player with potential and/or playing a LCB ar RCB.  

Does anyone have an idea on dunns potential ceiling? Is he a bit like nelsons potential?

[InglewoodJack]

22 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I get that and agree. We know what Waterman and Zator are. If Dunn is close enough to their level why not bring him in? His style of play and personality could mesh with what we already have, but we need to bring him in to find out. We expand the pool in the process as well.

My point of contention was that Dunn would be a better player after a single season starting, but I don't think that's what you meant when you said "clearly above". You're talking priority.

I think Cornelius is starting to get overhyped based on his exploits for Malmo. For the national team I haven't seen a big leap forward, but rather a slight improvement. I'd still be interested to see him start over Miller, but I don't agree with the consensus he's our best CB. I don't really think we have a "best CB" at the moment. As for Dunn and HamKam, it just seems like a far cry from the level of Malmo that I don't see how you can say he should be in the mix over the other guys.

Based on potential? Then yes, but it's not as if Ham Kam are the same level of club as Malmo, Montreal, Portland, Nashville, etc. 

 

Yeah, I should've specified he's above in terms of priority. Won't say I've watched too much Dunn in the past, but watching Waterman quite a bit both on TV and in person, he's good because he plays a lot but doesn't particularly excite me as a player after you strip away the lore of clawing through the BC system, U-Sports, CPL, so on. I'm hard on Zator and the Polish league in general, I'm sure others rate him much higher (and I admit, seeing how excited his family was when he came on for his first cap made me develop a soft spot for him), but Poland is only so high of a level and Kielce are starting the second half of the season in a relegation spot as we speak (I also don't know if Fotmob is mistaken, but he may be playing RB for them?).

I should've specified that Cornelius being our consensus best CB is based on this forum mostly- he's taken a leap in our books because of Malmo, yes. Haven't seen enough of him on the NT to make that call, though I would like for him to get some starts soon.

HamKam may not be the level of some of those other clubs, but remember that Zator walked onto Kielce from the CPL. Waterman walked onto Montreal from the CPL. MacNaughton was like a year and a half removed from the CPL when he signed with Nashville. These players took leaps along the way, sure, but it's not like they became radically different players, so I don't think we should knock what it would mean for Dunn to play well for HamKam. It really comes back to how he does if/when he plays regularly for them. He's a bit of a question mark right now, but the potential is there, and if he plays well, I think he's a lot closer to some of these other names in terms of current value than you're giving him. The other CB that started for HamKam today, Ignarsson, is a regular Iceland international, and while I'd like to think it's harder to break into our team than theirs, he's trusted enough to start against teams like Portugal and Slovakia. And a CB that this player is often picked ahead of for Iceland? None other than CF Montreal's Robert Thorkelsson.

[El Hombre]

24 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

So Dunn is realistically competeing with bombito, ZMG, Vitoria, LMK, Waterman, LDF, JKL, Smith and zator OR if none are good enough, Cornelius/kennedy on their weak foot. 

We need a style guide and master key for abbreviations.

Took me awhile to figure out who ZMG is and I'm still racking my brain about LMK.

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

We need a style guide and master key for abbreviations.

Took me awhile to figure out who ZMG is and I'm still racking my brain about LMK.

LMK is a typo. He means JKL, as in Jamie Knight Label, who's been making the bench for Bristol City in the Championship all season long. Hasn't played yet, though. 

Wait....no that's not right.....I think he means Lucas MacNaughton.

Okay we do need that style guide.

Edited January 30 by Obinna

[Bigandy]

7 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

We need a style guide and master key for abbreviations.

Took me awhile to figure out who ZMG is and I'm still racking my brain about LMK.

lucas mcnaughton.... not sure where the K came from

[Bigandy]

Just now, Obinna said:

LMK is a typo. He means JKL, as in Jamie Knight Label, who's been making the bench for Bristol City in the Championship all season long. Hasn't played yet, though. 

The typo was the K for Lucas macnaughton. I also included JKL for jamie knight lebel. 

[VinceA]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

LMK is a typo. He means JKL, as in Jamie Knight Label, who's been making the bench for Bristol City in the Championship all season long. Hasn't played yet, though. 

Wait....no that's not right.....I think he means Lucas MacNaughton.

Okay we do need that style guide.

I think he did get onto the pitch in one game and then the manager who gave him his debut was promptly fired.

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, VinceA said:

I think he did get onto the pitch in one game and then the manager who gave him his debut was promptly fired.

He did vs cardiff. Roughly the same time period where LDF played the cup match. 

[Shway]

2 hours ago, toontownman said:

He just has to have a consistent period of time without injuries, preferably getting game time as well. That is the only thing he needs. 

Even if he ends up performing well, I don't know I'd want him getting called for a good year or so. He doesn't need the extra wear and tear after being out so long. I think he just needs to be cautious and protected. He had so much potential imo but torrid luck. 

You mean the 1-2 extra games he could play? We are not our Concacaf foes where we have B camps annually. 

The CB spotS are up for grabs, if one is healthy and showing promise then it's their opportunity for the taking. 

[Shway]

At 6'3, he's an imposing figure. Reminds me Doneil......let's hope he has the healthy story.

[costarg]

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

Above? I would say it puts him in the conversation with the Watermans and Zators of the pool, not above.

Now, if Ham Kam go on to win the league? Yeah then I could entertain that, hell even if they get into Europe I would consider it, but if they have a typical season with him starting, I am not sure that's enough for Dunn to leapfrog all those guys, at least for me. 

That said, I think we should invest in a player like that sooner than later, so it would be nice after a full season starting at that level to come into the national team, maybe in the fall if we have some games that allow us to reach deeper into our pool. Given his age, I wouldn't complain with us selecting him over a Waterman or a MacNaugton, all things being equal.

I am just not convinced he'll clearly be a better player than any of those names after a full season starting in Norway, but let's see. McGraw and Kennedy in particular strike me as have a role to play moving forward. MacNaugton, Waterman, and Zator less so, although I like each of them as players. 

I hesitate to put MacNaughton in the group with Waterman and Zator.  I think he's a little above at the moment, and can still develop more if he keeps playing beside Zimmerman.  He was raw, but there was something there, even when he was playing at a dysfunctional TFC.  His basic skills, floor and understanding seemed a level above the others.

[toontownman]

1 hour ago, Shway said:

You mean the 1-2 extra games he could play? We are not our Concacaf foes where we have B camps annually. 

The CB spotS are up for grabs, if one is healthy and showing promise then it's their opportunity for the taking. 

I'd be ecstatic at the call as I have been a fan of his for a while. 

I would still be nervous pushing anything too soon. In a year or so of proving fitness and getting games. Sure.

International football..It's a different game. Different pace, environments, different intensity training and in games, very different pitches and travel does take its toll too. Even if its 1-2 games. He has had such a horrific layoff, I'd take no risks.

They shouldn't clash either with fifa windows but we have seen some players in the past risk losing spots in the team by missing club games to go for an international game. That's an extreme and unlikely scenario but that would also be a disaster.

 

[costarg]

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

I think Cornelius is starting to get overhyped based on his exploits for Malmo. For the national team I haven't seen a big leap forward, but rather a slight improvement. I'd still be interested to see him start over Miller, but I don't agree with the consensus he's our best CB. I don't really think we have a "best CB" at the moment.

I feel we're being really hard on the "newer and/or unproven" guys.  Cornelius, like Miller, Shaf, Choiniere, MacGraw, etc... have hardly had a chance to integrate and we judge them far too quickly while turning a blind eye to some of the shit shows the veterans have given us.  It takes time to integrate, gotta give the guys a fair shot before judging.

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, costarg said:

I feel we're being really hard on the "newer and/or unproven" guys.  Cornelius, like Miller, Shaf, Choiniere, MacGraw, etc... have hardly had a chance to integrate and we judge them far too quickly while turning a blind eye to some of the shit shows the veterans have given us.  It takes time to integrate, gotta give the guys a fair shot before judging.

On the flipside, dont you think you are being unfair towards the vets?

Looking at vitoria's performances for CMNT in recent memory, he has been good. Ya he gets beaten for pace but he steady the ship in nations league final and was good in the semis. He did his job away to jamaica even though it wasnt flawless. 

Hoilett has been great every time he touches the field. A great super sub to have. 

Borjan hasnt really made any clear mistakes even if you dont like his juggling. Again, Id love to see more of max but borjans performances are not quite "shit show" level if you judge fairly. 

Oso has lost his starting spot so its hard to blame him for any "shit shows"

As for the new guys,

-Cornelius was part of the breakdown against jamaica (not single handedly at fault by any means).... it happens but it proves hes not top top quality yet.  
-Miller has been a starter forever so Im not sure what you mean - maybe you mean millar?
-Shaf isnt better than any of our regular wingers and is a bit one dimensional. I hope to see more of him but wearent dropping millar, buchanan, davies or hoilett for him yet. Add in laryea and adekugbe as well in a 3-5-2. 
-Choiniere hopefully gets more looks but he didnt take his opportunity when given to him. Obviously we all want to see more of him and one performance isnt a justifiable reason to drop him, but players need to take their chances and when they don't, its hard to call them the finished product who 100% deserves to start. 
- macgraw has the same limitations as vitoria but with less upside. It's difficult to call a vitoria performance a shit show for being slow but basically doing everything else correct, while then assuming mccgraw is the answer when hes slow too. 

I'm with you on blooding in new players and giving them time to adapt. And by no means am I advocating for the vets to start over newcomers. I just think its only fair to judge without bias. If we criticize the vets for mistakes and demand to axe them, but then justify the newcomers mistakes as a learning curve, it creates a very unclear standard. 

[kacbru]

3 hours ago, Bigandy said:

So Dunn is realistically competeing with bombito, ZMG, Vitoria, LMK, Waterman, LDF, JKL, Smith and zator OR if none are good enough, Cornelius/kennedy on their weak foot. 

Is there a reason no one has put Kyle Hiebert into the mix?  I see him as equal to Waterman, ZMG, Zator, etc.

[Bigandy]

6 minutes ago, kacbru said:

Is there a reason no one has put Kyle Hiebert into the mix?  I see him as equal to Waterman, ZMG, Zator, etc.

Just an oversight for me.... Good point and he should be on the list! 

[costarg]

6 hours ago, Bigandy said:

On the flipside, dont you think you are being unfair towards the vets?

No.    

We've seen the games and know where we stand.  Borjan, Vitoria and Osorio are not in my starting 11 and haven't been in a while.  We've been relying on them too much since the world cup.  We should have turned the page a long time ago, and now we still find ourselves here with no clear plan.

However, I don't have Hoilett on that list.  In my mind Hoilett has always been a level above Vitoria and Borjan and still is. 

Borjan has good experience in Champions League, and a lot of success in his club league, however it does not challenge him enough and I feel that's the main reason for the brain farts we've witnessed for years.  We were already complaining about not trusting him for big matches 6 years ago, yet some people seem to want to hold on to him more now than back then.

Vitoria has had some great moments with CANMNT and I love the guy, but the time has passed.  The field in Jamaica saved his ass, no one could run or pass on that field and yet he still looked vulnerable.  He is no longer the player he was 2-3 years ago, AND THAT IS OK, players retire every year, its normal, no need to get all nostalgic and be like "but he was amazing in WCQ".  Once again, holding on to that memory is not serving us well and is also a disservice to him, let him focus on his club career and keep that going.  He's 37 and was slow in his prime, Atiba Hutchinson he is not.

Osorio, I'm really hoping he gets his mojo back.  I haven't given up on him, but until he proves otherwise, like you say, he should not be in the 11.  Just hope Biello also sees that.

Miller, yes, I meant Millar, thanks.

6 hours ago, Bigandy said:

-Choiniere hopefully gets more looks but he didnt take his opportunity when given to him. Obviously we all want to see more of him and one performance isnt a justifiable reason to drop him, but players need to take their chances and when they don't, its hard to call them the finished product who 100% deserves to start. 

Choiniere: he had 29 minutes in a completely lopsided and out of reach match!  Come man, that is not an "opportunity".  

 

6 hours ago, Bigandy said:

-Cornelius was part of the breakdown against jamaica (not single handedly at fault by any means).... it happens but it proves hes not top top quality yet.  

As for Cornelius, you're doing it again.  Claiming he was part of the collapse at BMO, is exactly what started the conversation.  He was playing out of position and in a new team.  Just like everyone else.... they need time and we need to stop jumping to conclusions until they get those minutes.  

[InglewoodJack]

17 hours ago, kacbru said:

Is there a reason no one has put Kyle Hiebert into the mix?  I see him as equal to Waterman, ZMG, Zator, etc.

He lost his starting spot for St Louis down the stretch, no? Feel like he faded down the stretch. He started the season really well though. 

[narduch]

4 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

He lost his starting spot for St Louis down the stretch, no? Feel like he faded down the stretch. He started the season really well though. 

And I think when he did get starts later on they were as LB

[Bigandy]

12 hours ago, costarg said:

No.    

We've seen the games and know where we stand.  Borjan, Vitoria and Osorio are not in my starting 11 and haven't been in a while.  We've been relying on them too much since the world cup.  We should have turned the page a long time ago, and now we still find ourselves here with no clear plan.

However, I don't have Hoilett on that list.  In my mind Hoilett has always been a level above Vitoria and Borjan and still is. 

Borjan has good experience in Champions League, and a lot of success in his club league, however it does not challenge him enough and I feel that's the main reason for the brain farts we've witnessed for years.  We were already complaining about not trusting him for big matches 6 years ago, yet some people seem to want to hold on to him more now than back then.

Vitoria has had some great moments with CANMNT and I love the guy, but the time has passed.  The field in Jamaica saved his ass, no one could run or pass on that field and yet he still looked vulnerable.  He is no longer the player he was 2-3 years ago, AND THAT IS OK, players retire every year, its normal, no need to get all nostalgic and be like "but he was amazing in WCQ".  Once again, holding on to that memory is not serving us well and is also a disservice to him, let him focus on his club career and keep that going.  He's 37 and was slow in his prime, Atiba Hutchinson he is not.

Osorio, I'm really hoping he gets his mojo back.  I haven't given up on him, but until he proves otherwise, like you say, he should not be in the 11.  Just hope Biello also sees that.

Miller, yes, I meant Millar, thanks.

Choiniere: he had 29 minutes in a completely lopsided and out of reach match!  Come man, that is not an "opportunity".  

 

As for Cornelius, you're doing it again.  Claiming he was part of the collapse at BMO, is exactly what started the conversation.  He was playing out of position and in a new team.  Just like everyone else.... they need time and we need to stop jumping to conclusions until they get those minutes.  

I think you are missing the point. Vitoria's performances have been good, not flawless for CMNT. "looking" vulnerable in your eyes is alot different then a "shit show". I agree we should move on from him but can you point to one performance from vitoria that has been a "shit show". On the flipside, the game in toronto where he did not play was much more of a shit show. How come you call vitorias winning and good performances/results a shit show, but when our team actually collapses, theres all sorts of excuses. Its very clear theres bias.

I didnt say that oso should or should not be in the 11. Im stating a fact that he was not in the 11 against jamaica. How can he be responsible for the "shit show" if hes not even a starter. Again, theres so much bias to blame the jamaica shit show on a substitute. 

Millar is getting more and more trust with CMNT. He's likely to play a big role in the next couple years. 

Choiniere didnt look great in those 29 minutes. Paton looked better IMO. These sorts of minutes are 100% opportunities for players. It sucks but thats the reality of it. Buchanan is likely to get these minutes for inter and if he looks poor in them, he wont turn into a starter. Obviously we are not shutting the door on choineire by any means but Im pointing out the bias in saying "oso as a bench player caused a shit show" and "choiniere who looked poor last game would clearly have prevented a shit show".

Cornelius is the same age as miller and been part of CMNT for 6 years. Sure, he hasnt had the experience of vitoria and he was on his weaker foot. But again you miss the point. The shit show that happened for CMNT was the jamaica collapse. How can you blame vitoria and oso (bench guys) but not blame cornelius who was actually on the field? It's ludicrously bias. 

If your opinion is strictly to say, "its time to transition" then im with you. But to call our vets a shit show for being on the bench is just wild.  


 

[costarg]

5 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think you are missing the point. Vitoria's performances have been good, not flawless for CMNT. "looking" vulnerable in your eyes is alot different then a "shit show". I agree we should move on from him but can you point to one performance from vitoria that has been a "shit show". On the flipside, the game in toronto where he did not play was much more of a shit show. How come you call vitorias winning and good performances/results a shit show, but when our team actually collapses, theres all sorts of excuses. Its very clear theres bias.

I didnt say that oso should or should not be in the 11. Im stating a fact that he was not in the 11 against jamaica. How can he be responsible for the "shit show" if hes not even a starter. Again, theres so much bias to blame the jamaica shit show on a substitute. 

Millar is getting more and more trust with CMNT. He's likely to play a big role in the next couple years. 

Choiniere didnt look great in those 29 minutes. Paton looked better IMO. These sorts of minutes are 100% opportunities for players. It sucks but thats the reality of it. Buchanan is likely to get these minutes for inter and if he looks poor in them, he wont turn into a starter. Obviously we are not shutting the door on choineire by any means but Im pointing out the bias in saying "oso as a bench player caused a shit show" and "choiniere who looked poor last game would clearly have prevented a shit show".

Cornelius is the same age as miller and been part of CMNT for 6 years. Sure, he hasnt had the experience of vitoria and he was on his weaker foot. But again you miss the point. The shit show that happened for CMNT was the jamaica collapse. How can you blame vitoria and oso (bench guys) but not blame cornelius who was actually on the field? It's ludicrously bias. 

If your opinion is strictly to say, "its time to transition" then im with you. But to call our vets a shit show for being on the bench is just wild.  


 

Nah, dude, I don't agree, and that is ok!  No offence, but I won't keep explaining what I see. 

It's fine if you feel Vitoria and Borjan are still at the right level and playing well, or part of our best.  I don't see that, yet I agree that it is absolutely time to transition, so we agree there. 

Even if we consider it a little step back to try a Cornelius/MacGraw for 2 games, we still find ourselves ahead of where we are now, which is having no clue who our best combo is moving forward.  Vitoria can't and should not be starting anymore.  Borjan has already been surpassed by younger keepers.  Osorio has not had an ok game for CANMNT in a very long time.

[Bigandy]

20 minutes ago, costarg said:

Nah, dude, I don't agree, and that is ok!  No offence, but I won't keep explaining what I see. 

It's fine if you feel Vitoria and Borjan are still at the right level and playing well, or part of our best.  I don't see that, yet I agree that it is absolutely time to transition, so we agree there. 

Even if we consider it a little step back to try a Cornelius/MacGraw for 2 games, we still find ourselves ahead of where we are now, which is having no clue who our best combo is moving forward.  Vitoria can't and should not be starting anymore.  Borjan has already been surpassed by younger keepers.  Osorio has not had an ok game for CANMNT in a very long time.

I didnt say that vitoria and borjan are at the right level. I said that theres no evidence of them being responsible for any "shit show".

I agree with your sentiment but just find it a bit disrespectful to have these guys put so much into CMNT only for a fan to call them a shit show when they are not even starting. I think to say we should move on is fine, but to insult them for sitting on the bench is a step too far IMO. 

What I want is to see Cornelius and miller for LCB and LDF/JKL/Bombito (obviously this is a long term RCB pairing) fight it out for RCB. Max starts at GK and ali becomes our 3rd midfielder with some unknownish youngsters coming up to compete with him. 

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

I didnt say that vitoria and borjan are at the right level. I said that theres no evidence of them being responsible for any "shit show".

I agree with your sentiment but just find it a bit disrespectful to have these guys put so much into CMNT only for a fan to call them a shit show when they are not even starting. I think to say we should move on is fine, but to insult them for sitting on the bench is a step too far IMO. 

What I want is to see Cornelius and miller for LCB and LDF/JKL/Bombito (obviously this is a long term RCB pairing) fight it out for RCB. Max starts at GK and ali becomes our 3rd midfielder with some unknownish youngsters coming up to compete with him. 

Overall we're on the same page man.  By no means do i mean to be disrespectful to either of these guys.  Borjan is a CANMNT legend, Vitoria has been a loyal soldier that gave us some of his best work.  Using brainfarts and shit-show vs "bad game" is just slang and not meant to be disrespectful in anyway.  After all this is pro sports not afternoon tea.

About "no evidence of them being responsible for any shit show", you don't only disagree with me, but also pretty much all media outlets and podcasts concerning Borjan in the Jamaica game.  Everyone called him out in that game, and there have been lots of brainfarts over the years and we loved him through all of it.  He's still starting.

Vitoria: Once again, I don't feel he has looked good, solid or even average lately.  To me it's a blatant vulnerability and only a bad pitch saved him vs Jamaica. He has also started very recently.

Peace man

 

[Obinna]

I think we are stuck in a weird position where Vitoria has (naturally) declined...BUT at the same time we've yet to see a better, younger version emerge and replace him, hence we are stuck in limbo. 

The closest thing has been McGraw, but he seems to be more of a supportive CB, whereas Vitoria is a leader or anchor, however you want to put it. Both are great in the air, but I haven't seen anything from McGraw yet to suggest he can be that guy. And maybe he shouldn't have to be....

Part of the blame goes to the coaching staff for not moving away from the 3-5-2, which is tailor made for Vitoria as the anchor. They tried Kennedy in there for a different look, who offered speed and emergency defending, but he's not really an anchor, so to speak. Like Kennedy, Cornelius is more of a supportive CB, as is Miller.

To play in the way we did during qualifying, we'd need prime David Edgar back there. A commanding anchor with good feet, good communication, and positional awareness. 

I think we need LDF to hurry up and develop, so that he can be our RCB moving forward. Maybe Johnston can evolve into that role later in his career. That'd be two solid RCB options, assuming Johnston keeps up his level at Celtic and LDF carves out a Fulham career. 

On the left we are fine. Miller, Cornelius and Kennedy are all servicable. 

No middle CB, just 4 in the back. Let the guys figure it out by committee. 3 in the back is asking for trouble without a leader and Vitoria is already past his prime, even though he's the best we have in that configuration.