Canadian Premier League

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

They can still operate in MLS until CSA revoke that privilege. Will the CSA do so?

My point was more that the CSA shouldn't even be able to do that under normal FIFA rules, once a D1 level CPL exists. It's something that always needs special CONCACAF and FIFA permission and not something the CSA and USSF can do by themselves on a whim, because of the precedent it sets.

The exceptions that are made to playing in your own national league are clubs playing almost on a national border that play in one country but can be argued to be representing people in the other country, and clubs from countries that have no viable national pro league of their own. The latter is the Canadian scenario. If CPL ever did materialize as a standalone D1 level national pro league with no cross-border element to it then under FIFA rules there really is no scope for Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal teams to be playing in an American league.

When Montagliani says we plan to have a national league by 2018 it can be viewed as a direct threat to Canadian participation in MLS. When it starts being linked to rules over who counts as domestic players in MLS as has been done none too subtlely in recent days, it looks like a case of a make those changes or you will have to leave Canada ultimatum.

The reason people are not framing it in those terms is that FIFA has to operate according to the legal systems of its member countries and it seems far-fetched that this could ever happen without massive financial compensation to the three I/Os that are involved as well as MLS who own 52% of the three Canadian teams. That makes the whole thing look like a bluff more than anything else.

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

My point was more that the CSA shouldn't even be able to do that under normal FIFA rules, once a D1 level CPL exists. It's something that always needs special CONCACAF and FIFA permission and not something the CSA and USSF can do by themselves on a whim, because of the precedent it sets.

The exceptions that are made to playing in your own national league are clubs playing almost on a national border that play in one country but can be argued to be representing people in the other country, and clubs from countries that have no viable national pro league of their own. The latter is the Canadian scenario. If CPL ever did materialize as a standalone D1 level national pro league with no cross-border element to it then under FIFA rules there really is no scope for Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal teams to be playing in an American league.

When Montagliani says we plan to have a national league by 2018 it can be viewed as a direct threat to Canadian participation in MLS. When it starts being linked to rules over who counts as domestic players in MLS as has been done none too subtlely in recent days, it looks like a case of a make those changes or you will have to leave Canada ultimatum.

The reason people are not framing it in those terms is that FIFA has to operate according to the legal systems of its member countries and it seems far-fetched that this could ever happen without massive financial compensation to the three I/Os that are involved as well as MLS who own 52% of the three Canadian teams. That makes the whole thing look like a bluff more than anything else.

From my understanding, CSA must have gotten that special "exception" to allow those 3 clubs to play in MLS while being based in Canada. As soon as CSA revoke their approval, it pretty much ends that FIFA exception.

The big 3 jumping into CPL will always end up being someone compensating the MLS. There's no way to go around that. In that regard, as times goes by, those clubs gains more value. The longer you wait, the bigger the compensation will be.

[Ruffian]

There has been talk of a Canadian division in USL. What if... there was a Canadian division in MLS? They could maintain control of more player through contracts in 2 divisions/leagues. Obviously American League teams would not give up an equal share in the equity of the MLS Corporation but I am sure there is a split that may work for Canadian franchises and American franchises. Existing Canadian franchises would likely need to be compensated for the risks involved in this move but maybe future American League teams franchise could be bought from the existing Canadian franchises full or partial. Also the existing Canadian franchise teams would benefit from the better national coverage in Canada hopefully with better TV deals with Rogers/Bell.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Ruffian said:

There has been talk of a Canadian division in USL. What if... there was a Canadian division in MLS? They could maintain control of more player through contracts in 2 divisions/leagues. Obviously American League teams would not give up an equal share in the equity of the MLS Corporation but I am sure there is a split that may work for Canadian franchises and American franchises. Existing Canadian franchises would likely need to be compensated for the risks involved in this move but maybe future American League teams franchise could be bought from the existing Canadian franchises full or partial. Also the existing Canadian franchise teams would benefit from the better national coverage in Canada hopefully with better TV deals with Rogers/Bell.

Many times has it been demonstrated that the USSF and it's league aren't the solution. The results aren't there. Period.

MLS already shut the door on Canadian expansion. They are happy to rip the rewards from the big 3.

[Ruffian]

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Many times has it been demonstrated that the USSF and it's league aren't the solution. The results aren't there. Period.

MLS already shut the door on Canadian expansion. They are happy to rip the rewards from the big 3.

I am not saying this is the best way I am just saying this is a possibility due to how Corporations like MLS like to keep control of complete markets and control of any money making possibilities. The fact that we know the USSF associated leagues have not done great by Canadians and we do not like that has no impact on how investors will feel or act. Investors will only act in a way that will give them a better chance of making their money back and owning a piece of something valuable.

The fact that Garber did say no to any Canadian expansion does shoot this notion down though. Just a thought.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Ruffian said:

I am not saying this is the best way I am just saying this is a possibility due to how Corporations like MLS like to keep control of complete markets and control of any money making possibilities. The fact that we know the USSF associated leagues have not done great by Canadians and we do not like that has no impact on how investors will feel or act. Investors will only act in a way that will give them a better chance of making their money back and owning a piece of something valuable.

The fact that Garber did say no to any Canadian expansion does shoot this notion down though. Just a thought.

MLS should keep it in the back of their mind that CSA can kick them out of the big 3 markets at anytime.

Just evicting MLS from Canada by the CSA is within FIFA convention and there's little MLS can do about it, including legally. However, getting the 3 clubs to get to CPL would trigger legal battles or a settlement on compensation.

I understand the point of view of MLS and Investors but when they sign up for it, THEY KNEW what they were getting themselves into. That FIFA clause stating that MLS may operate from Canada only if the CSA allows it is nothing new and they all sign up on it. That's a legal contract that doesn't violate any laws as both parties agreed to those rules and clause before signing.

To turn around now and go to court because the CSA removed their approval to operate in Canada would be but immediately shutdown by any court of law. Acquiring the 3 franchises is another issue that would end up in having to compensate the league and potentially the clubs owner.

Hope I cleared the legal aspect of it a bit.

[gator]

I would be ok with the MLS clubs leaving if we had a viable Canadian option, I hope Victor has the stones to play hardball with them regarding the Canadians in the league in the short term!

[lazlo_80]

The MLS forced to Canada thing is interesting but it's not happening.

From the MLS perspective you could give those spots to St. Louis, Sacramento and Detroit, demand some ridiculous franchise fee and MLS would move on like nothing happened.

From the Canadian side, Vic is essentially a politician, potentially disenfranchising 3 fan bases because you ripped their teams out of a higher league to chase a CPL would be dumb on about a billion different levels.

this is fun to talk about. But its all hot air. Expect to see some sort of compromise in MLS with canadians as domestics. The one being floated around right now is that all homegrown players regardless of nationality are considered domestics across the league. something like that makes sense.

if the CPL is already at the point where they have a business model, there's 0% chance part of that business model is "Rip the MLS franchises away from the league and put them in the CPL".

[AnOutsider]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

• MLS: The salary cap will be $3.49 million per team, not counting the extra salary of designated players. Players in the first 20 roster spots will count against the cap. The maximum salary for any one player is $436,250.
• CFL:The CFL's player salary cap is defined as part of the Salary Management System framework. For the 2016 season, the CFL Maximum Salary Expenditure Cap (SEC) is $5.1 million per team, increasing by $50,000 per year for the next two seasons. 

CFL's salary cap is "hard", MLS' is not. All but one MLS team have payroll higher than $5m this season.

The CFL is ~40 years older than MLS, but MLS has surpassed the CFL revenue-wise and the gap will only get bigger.

Player salary will always tied to revenue. So, the CPL need to surpass the CFL level before dreaming about rivaling MLS.

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

The MLS forced to Canada thing is interesting but it's not happening.

From the MLS perspective you could give those spots to St. Louis, Sacramento and Detroit, demand some ridiculous franchise fee and MLS would move on like nothing happened.

From the Canadian side, Vic is essentially a politician, potentially disenfranchising 3 fan bases because you ripped their teams out of a higher league to chase a CPL would be dumb on about a billion different levels.

this is fun to talk about. But its all hot air. Expect to see some sort of compromise in MLS with canadians as domestics. The one being floated around right now is that all homegrown players regardless of nationality are considered domestics across the league. something like that makes sense.

if the CPL is already at the point where they have a business model, there's 0% chance part of that business model is "Rip the MLS franchises away from the league and put them in the CPL".

MLS taking control of Montreal and Vancouver would very hard, and very unlikely. MLS have a tighter grip on TFC than Montreal (founded in 1992) and Vancouver (founded in 1974). Also a relocation fee would never be the same as an expansion fee. The league would be losing money doing that. Might as well have an expansion to replace those 2 and ask for a compensation.

MLS isn't the CSA's problem. MLS isn't beneficiating the CSA nor Canadians in anyway except for the clubs fans. Ultimately, CSA mandate trumps keeping the fanbase of 3 MLS clubs happy. Status quo is bad for Canada and bad for the CSA, so don't be so sure they would give it a second thought if MLS keeps their stubborn position on Canadian players being domestic.

If TFC was moved elsewhere, investors would line up for a Toronto franchise within CPL. Still, if it came to that down the road, MLS asking for financial compensation for all 3 is way more likely than a legal fight to move the teams.

I too think that MLS will find a way to satisfy the CSA enough to keep the 3 markets. MLS simply CANNOT afford to lose those markets as it would be a HUGE blow to their value, revenues and bargaining power for TV contracts...and reputation. Losing your 4th most valuable franchise is bad for business, and 3 of the top media markets in North America as well. You do know that the CFL has a better TV deal than MLS right?

Talking about business model, how letting MLS have a hold on the 3 biggest markets in the country, good for business? If anything, that would ultimately be holding them back whenever they happen to peak. Will it happen now? no. Short to mid term? No. Long term when CPL peaks, there's a possibility. 

[Complete Homer]

3 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

"May you live in interesting times..."

So, there are a few scenarios, none of which seem ideal.

- If MLS accommodates the 'Canadians as domestics' ask, then CSA loses leverage to move the MLS clubs into the planned CPL (since that kind of sanction is presumably the lever being threatened now).  That leaves the CPL without major portions of the three biggest markets, and probably with a reduced player pool in the short term since many would-be CPL players could be unrestricted MLS journeymen.

- If MLS doesn't accommodate the ask, and CSA tries to force the clubs into CPL, they will face a massive legal challenge and will have alienated the ownership groups that they would have to work with if the forced move was successful.  The kind of franchise fee paid by the clubs (TFC at $40M?) is not pocket change - any action that threatens that investment (and subsequent profits/potential) would be huge. 

- But without the 'big 3', the CPL will likely face major sustainability problems, not just because they are splitting the major markets, but because they will always be a second tier offering in this country.  The CFL is the only game in town for Canadian hand-egg (football), and it has faced huge challenges in the past generating sustained interest because it is a second tier league.

 

Not trying to be a doomsdayer - I just hope that the folks making these threats/bluffs/whatever have a really solid game plan, because there are some bumps in the road ahead.

 

Seems like the best of both worlds is getting MLS domestic spots and getting them through CPL

I don't think the domestic spots in MLS are hinging on CPL. TFC and VWC (and presumably IMFC, though I haven't seen quotes) have publicly expressed frustration at the rule. Those are important ownership groups with voting power, if CSA gets them using their weight we could see progress, especially of they see it as CSA being forced into threatening action because of MLS' FO obstruction. 

I don't think Vic would say that he expects a change at the end of the year if it was entirely a bluff. That's seems like a great way to lose face before becoming CONCACAF's president. The threat of desanctioning might just be a "get it done now, not later" kind of threat,considering it's been over a year since Garber said they were looking into the Canadian academy loophole

[Ansem]

16 minutes ago, AnOutsider said:

CFL's salary cap is "hard", MLS' is not. All but one MLS team have payroll higher than $5m this season.

The CFL is ~40 years older than MLS, but MLS has surpassed the CFL revenue-wise and the gap will only get bigger.

Player salary will always tied to revenue. So, the CPL need to surpass the CFL level before dreaming about rivaling MLS.

I don't think the CPL is trying to rivaling the MLS nor should it be their goal. They should aim to get the USL and NASL out of Canada in term of market share. Then grow to CFL level.

TV ratings speaks for themselves. The highest TV ratings for MLS is when Canadian clubs face each other. For everything else, they are embarrassingly low, and no one cares nor watch MLS playoffs or cup when there no Canadian team.

It's not unrealistic to assume that CPL could draw more viewers in total than MLS. The challenge is getting people to stadiums

[lazlo_80]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

MLS taking control of Montreal and Vancouver would very hard, and very unlikely. MLS have a tighter grip on TFC than Montreal (founded in 1992) and Vancouver (founded in 1974). Also a relocation fee would never be the same as an expansion fee. The league would be losing money doing that. Might as well have an expansion to replace those 2 and ask for a compensation.

MLS isn't the CSA's problem. MLS isn't beneficiating the CSA nor Canadians in anyway except for the clubs fans. Ultimately, CSA mandate trumps keeping the fanbase of 3 MLS clubs happy. Status quo is bad for Canada and bad for the CSA, so don't be so sure they would give it a second thought if MLS keeps their stubborn position on Canadian players being domestic.

If TFC was moved elsewhere, investors would line up for a Toronto franchise within CPL. Still, if it came to that down the road, MLS asking for financial compensation for all 3 is way more likely than a legal fight to move the teams.

I too think that MLS will find a way to satisfy the CSA enough to keep the 3 markets. MLS simply CANNOT afford to lose those markets as it would be a HUGE blow to their value, revenues and bargaining power for TV contracts...and reputation. Losing your 4th most valuable franchise is bad for business, and 3 of the top media markets in North America as well. You do know that the CFL has a better TV deal than MLS right?

Talking about business model, how letting MLS have a hold on the 3 biggest markets in the country, good for business? If anything, that would ultimately be holding them back whenever they happen to peak. Will it happen now? no. Short to mid term? No. Long term when CPL peaks, there's a possibility. 

Agree with most of your points. Especially the last two paragraphs. And that was the crux of my post...

the conversation around dragging these 3 MLS teams is fun but highly, highly unlikely.

You have to assume with the recent investment into Toronto FC (academies, stadium upgrades, etc.) they aren't expecting to be pulled out of that league anytime soon.

[Ansem]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/

Victor Montagliani interview at Sportsnet this morning

[ted]

Since everyone is speculating to a ridiculous extreme I will add my "wild and crazy" prognostications without any actual evidence to back it up:

The MLS teams are not going anywhere.

The CanPL will be a D2 for legal/FIFA purposes.

The similarities to MLS will be: salary cap, centralised marketing and TV deal (for whatever pocket change that's worth), and franchises.

The difference will be: players employed by the teams, not the league.

 

But sure... let's keep babbling on like crazy people about a "Canadian Division" in the MLS forced by the all-powerful Vic. I can hardly wait to see LA Galaxy vs Winnipeg Valour sponsored by little green men from Alpha Centauri who have been hiding in Area 51 for 60 years waiting to enslave humanity by hypnotising them with beautiful football from Canada.

 

[Ansem]

CPL will be Division 1, fyi

MLS teams aren't going anywhere in the short to mid term. Long term? We don't know but it wouldn't be impossible. If CPL peaks one day, don't expect the CSA and CPL to just stay out of the big 3 markets. That's all I'm saying. You think that if the roles were reversed, USSF and MLS would just forget about NYC, L.A and Chicago?

There will never be a Canadian division in any USSF sanctioned league.

Details about CPL are still to come

[lazlo_80]

So now that we all think this is happening can we all skip ahead to being outraged that the league isn't immediately in FIFA?

[baulderdash77]

Ted- I think your "wild and crazy" is pretty much what may realistically happen.  Div 1 or Div 2 is kinda sammantics since we have neither.  

[Viruk42]

47 minutes ago, ted said:

But sure... let's keep babbling on like crazy people about a "Canadian Division" in the MLS forced by the all-powerful Vic. I can hardly wait to see LA Galaxy vs Winnipeg Valour sponsored by little green men from Alpha Centauri who have been hiding in Area 51 for 60 years waiting to enslave humanity by hypnotising them with beautiful football from Canada.

 

I'm sorry, but Alpha Centauri is clearly home to "small furry creatures" who, back in the day, were "real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri", not little green men. Everything else sounds about right though

 

[Complete Homer]

1 hour ago, ted said:

Since everyone is speculating to a ridiculous extreme I will add my "wild and crazy" prognostications without any actual evidence to back it up:

The MLS teams are not going anywhere.

The CanPL will be a D2 for legal/FIFA purposes.

The similarities to MLS will be: salary cap, centralised marketing and TV deal (for whatever pocket change that's worth), and franchises.

The difference will be: players employed by the teams, not the league.

 

But sure... let's keep babbling on like crazy people about a "Canadian Division" in the MLS forced by the all-powerful Vic. I can hardly wait to see LA Galaxy vs Winnipeg Valour sponsored by little green men from Alpha Centauri who have been hiding in Area 51 for 60 years waiting to enslave humanity by hypnotising them with beautiful football from Canada.

 

Outside of the D1/D2, I'm betting you are bang on, though I wouldn't exclude single entity as a possibility. I don't see why labeling the league D1 would be problematic for FIFA, given that 3 MLS teams isn't really a "tier"

I'm curious what happens when NASL is no longer in Canada, thereby eliminating our scant "Tier 2." Personally, I'd like to see some sort of small playoff between the D3 leagues so that we can call them all one "league" and proclaim it D2. That or the USL teams will become D2 once USL gets that label from the USSF.

[reme90]

1 hour ago, ted said:

LA Galaxy vs Winnipeg Valour

haha trademark, I want a penny everytime someone says Valour FC lol

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

If CPL peaks one day, don't expect the CSA and CPL to just stay out of the big 3 markets.

Can anyone explain to me why the CanPL has to stay out of the big 3 markets when it initiates? Are we really saying Toronto can't support 2 teams? Are we saying MLS has sole territory claims over Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver? 

I'd think the CanPL would look to specifically place teams in those market to provide a club for the millions of people who do not support TFC and MLS in particular. 

What am I missing?

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, lazlo_80 said:

So now that we all think this is happening can we all skip ahead to being outraged that the league isn't immediately in FIFA?

Konami already bought the exclusive rights to the league for Pro Evolution Soccer 2018.

[-Hammer-]

6 minutes ago, reme90 said:

haha trademark, I want a penny everytime someone says Valour FC lol

Can anyone explain to me why the CanPL has to stay out of the big 3 markets when it initiates? Are we really saying Toronto can't support 2 teams? Are we saying MLS has sole territory claims over Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver? 

I'd think the CanPL would look to specifically place teams in those market to provide a club for the millions of people who do not support TFC and MLS in particular. 

What am I missing?

That's is a good question. The biggest concern is of course, that the MLS team will run the CPL team out of town as they have a much more consolidated fanbase, tighter control over a much nicer venue and most are currently doing decently. Last year or the year before, there were without a doubt a solid chunk of disenfranchised TFC fans.

[Ansem]

12 minutes ago, reme90 said:

Can anyone explain to me why the CanPL has to stay out of the big 3 markets when it initiates? Are we really saying Toronto can't support 2 teams? Are we saying MLS has sole territory claims over Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver? 

I'd think the CanPL would look to specifically place teams in those market to provide a club for the millions of people who do not support TFC and MLS in particular. 

What am I missing?

There's nothing stopping CPL from getting into those markets from the get go. The population size does warrants it. I'm seeing a few reasons not to at first

• It's riskier from an investor point of view. I'm from Montreal and know for a fact a CPL team would have a very hard time being relevant against the CFL who's losing fans to Montreal Impact. Look at their track record (CONCACAF Finals, Drogba, Piatti etc...). To start a league, you want to play safe in markets you know will succeed because you have no competition from CFL or MLS.
• The league might have future plans for those 3. It would take the league to be stable and nothing short than a success. By that I mean a TV contract and salary structure close to CFL excluding DPs. When CPL peaks then they would have options to get into those markets by either implementing a CPL team coexisting with MLS clubs or have the CSA to evict the MLS clubs to give the market to the new CPL teams

There's no such thing as "territorial rights". Even the NHL said numerous time that it didn't recognized the Maples Leafs claim that the GTA was their territory. A 2nd team in Toronto can't be block by the Leafs but some compensation would have to be paid to the leafs

[Complete Homer]

8 minutes ago, reme90 said:

haha trademark, I want a penny everytime someone says Valour FC lol

Can anyone explain to me why the CanPL has to stay out of the big 3 markets when it initiates? Are we really saying Toronto can't support 2 teams? Are we saying MLS has sole territory claims over Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver? 

I'd think the CanPL would look to specifically place teams in those market to provide a club for the millions of people who do not support TFC and MLS in particular. 

What am I missing?

I think the idea is that they are better off launching now and proving the league is stable to attract investors, rather than waiting until they finally get all three of those markets lined up. A "Vancouver" team in Surrey, a Toronto team at Varsity or maybe Mississauga, and a Montreal team at Laval or something seems doable in the medium term