Canadian Premier League

[rob.notenboom]

2 hours ago, ted said:

Since everyone is speculating to a ridiculous extreme I will add my "wild and crazy" prognostications without any actual evidence to back it up:

The MLS teams are not going anywhere.

The CanPL will be a D2 for legal/FIFA purposes.

The similarities to MLS will be: salary cap, centralised marketing and TV deal (for whatever pocket change that's worth), and franchises.

The difference will be: players employed by the teams, not the league.

 

But sure... let's keep babbling on like crazy people about a "Canadian Division" in the MLS forced by the all-powerful Vic. I can hardly wait to see LA Galaxy vs Winnipeg Valour sponsored by little green men from Alpha Centauri who have been hiding in Area 51 for 60 years waiting to enslave humanity by hypnotising them with beautiful football from Canada.

 

Winnipeg Valour is a great name. The supporters could march down Valour Roac

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 hour ago, reme90 said:

What am I missing?

You have to find somebody willing to invest when it looks like a bit of a fool's errand if they are up against MLS. If the MLS teams were not there then CPL would probably be doable as a standalone national league averaging 5000 or so overall. With them present it looks very far-fetched when three markets with about half the population of the country are highly problematic, to say nothing of Ottawa and Edmonton that are also no sure thing. To make it fly either the MLS teams themselves would have to be forced to be there, which is highly unlikely in a who takes the hit on loss of frachise value when TFC are being valued at $USD 245 million by Forbes magazine sort of way, or you need to factor in their B teams at D2 level, which I suspect would not fly in Hamilton and would be a far tougher sell in cities like Winnipeg and Calgary. A square peg needs to be driven into a round hole at some point in all of this.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

I won't say it will or won't work to put a team in a MLS market, but I will say that if you do it is imperative that you market it correctly and put it in a place that self-identifies as not really part of that market, and put the stadium in a place that is far enough away from the MLS team that it makes it significantly more sensible for some fans to go there.

Surrey and Mississauga seem like obvious examples.  Sure, the fans there currently probably root for the Whitecaps and TFC, but there is a real sense in both those places that they aren't exactly part of Van or Tor, respectively.  

I wonder if there is an area in Montreal(or close) where you could make the same argument.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

2 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

Winnipeg Valour is a great name. The supporters could march down Valour Roac

way ahead of u buddy

[zen]

11 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

I won't say it will or won't work to put a team in a MLS market, but I will say that if you do it is imperative that you market it correctly and put it in a place that self-identifies as not really part of that market, and put the stadium in a place that is far enough away from the MLS team that it makes it significantly more sensible for some fans to go there.

Surrey and Mississauga seem like obvious examples.  Sure, the fans there currently probably root for the Whitecaps and TFC, but there is a real sense in both those places that they aren't exactly part of Van or Tor, respectively.  

I wonder if there is an area in Montreal(or close) where you could make the same argument.

TBF Guillermo, it's the location in Mississauga that will matter. Everyone in the 905 area will identify as part of the GTA i.e. they are secondary to Toronto but if a stadium i set up in an area where it can be a party I don't see why it wouldn't catch on. Somewhere with a lot of bars and nightlife. In Mississauga that's Hurontario St south of Square one or in Port Credit.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

TBF Guillermo, it's the location in Mississauga that will matter. Everyone in the 905 area will identify as part of the GTA i.e. they are secondary to Toronto but if a stadium i set up in an area where it can be a party I don't see why it wouldn't catch on. Somewhere with a lot of bars and nightlife. In Mississauga that's Hurontario St south of Square one or in Port Credit.

Makes sense.  Honestly I don't know the details well enough in each market, but that's kinda what it should seem like.  A big party.  Have the game's on saturday evening and free beer movement all around and it'll be the hottest gig in town in no time.  

I think the key is that we encourage people to talk to their neighbours and just make it a duh that you buy one other person a beer when you come, you teach them the team songs, etc etc and there's no telling what can happen.  People are dying for something authentic, even the eurosnobs couldn't turn that down if we do it right.

[ted]

20 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

way ahead of u buddy

Where do you think I got the name from?

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

 

1 minute ago, ted said:

Where do you think I got the name from?

props to reme, his idea.  we gettin there.

[lazlo_80]

Has anyone come out and said there won't be teams in the big three markets? The rumors I heard had teams in some of those markets.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

2 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

Has anyone come out and said there won't be teams in the big three markets? The rumors I heard had teams in some of those markets.

I don't think anyone has come out and said anything regarding markets whatsoever.  Rumours are rumours, and, as such, they've been all over the place.

[Macksam]

GTA team in Mississauga, close to the city's downtown area would be off the hook. It would be further solidified if that LRT between Port credit and downtown Brampton ever gets built.

[baulderdash77]

Every rumor seems to have Ottawa, Calgary, Winnipeg and Calgary in it.  Then the collection of speculative markets seem to be 2 to 4 of: Edmonton,  somewhere in the GTA, Montreal, Quebec City, Regina and Victoria.   Duane Rollins commented on his informed speculation for markets.  It's stil speculation but he does have actual inside sources.

 

Duane Rollins– ‏@24thminute

My actual *informed speculation* is MTL or Que, Ottawa, GTA, Hamilton, Winnipeg, Calgary, Sask, Lower Mainland to start.

9:16 am - 15 Sep 2016 from Toronto, Ontario

3 RETWEETS3 LIKES

[baulderdash77]

6 minutes ago, Macksam said:

GTA team in Mississauga, close to the city's downtown area would be off the hook. It would be further solidified if that LRT between Port credit and downtown Brampton ever gets built.

Is there a temporary 5,000 seat location they could use until a permanent stadium is built?

[rob.notenboom]

1 hour ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

way ahead of u buddy

Nice

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, baulderdash77 said:

Is there a temporary 5,000 seat location they could use until a permanent stadium is built?

Unfortunately no. Something would have to be whipped together.

[Gopherbashi]

It's kind of interesting that we're talking about the CSA forcing MLS teams to CPL, but not talking about CSA forcing NASL teams to CPL - which would be the more likely scenario in my mind (especially if FCE refuses to move).

Reversing that; it's hard to see CSA revoking exemptions from MLS teams if they're not going to do it for NASL teams.

[rob.notenboom]

I find it interesting that people are worried about a second team in one of the big three markets while there has been a lot of talk suggesting that Regina is likely for a team. I'm well aware of the potential issues facing a new team competing for fans with an MLS team as well as the fact that Regina would have no competition within a five and half hour drive (assuming Saskatoon is not involved), but from a purely population standpoint, if Regina can fly, 4 teams can fly in Toronto. 

[baulderdash77]

I think there's about the same chance that a CPL team can get relegated to L1O as there is that the CSA would force MLS teams to the CPL

[Complete Homer]

16 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

It's kind of interesting that we're talking about the CSA forcing MLS teams to CPL, but not talking about CSA forcing NASL teams to CPL - which would be the more likely scenario in my mind (especially if FCE refuses to move).

Reversing that; it's hard to see CSA revoking exemptions from MLS teams if they're not going to do it for NASL teams.

It's not going to happen. Even if they did mean their desanctioning threat, I think it would be more of a threat to USSF potentially losing Bradley and Altidore (by playing for an unsanctioned team) ahead of the gold cup than anything about forcing teams over. 

[reme90]

12 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

... MLS team will run the CPL team out of town as they have a much more consolidated fanbase, tighter control over a much nicer venue and most are currently doing decently. Last year or the year before, there were without a doubt a solid chunk of disenfranchised TFC fans.

You don't seem to capture the irony of your statement. "MLS running another club out of town" yet the last couple of years a"solid chunk of their fanbase" would have supported another club??? Which is it?

TFC is a cookie cutter franchise with consumers. The CANPL has a chance to build a CLUB, that represents the city and it's people. There are MILLIONS of people who don't support TFC and within those millions is a Soccer-First demographic that HATES MLS and everything it stands for. They support real authentic soccer and they are hungry for a club of their own. They would become true SUPPORTERS who don't jump ship because its a bad season.

For an investor, Toronto is ripe. Offer the supporters a chance to become shareholders, heck make the team Maple Leaf BLUE just to piss off TFC and watch a heated DERBY unfold, something like North America has never seen. 

12 hours ago, Ansem said:

• It's riskier from an investor point of view. I'm from Montreal and know for a fact a CPL team would have a very hard time being relevant .... To start a league, you want to play safe in markets you know will succeed because you have no competition from CFL or MLS.
•  
• The league might have future plans for those 3. It would take the league to be stable and nothing short than a success. By that I mean a TV contract and salary structure close to CFL excluding DPs. When CPL peaks then they would have options to get into those markets by either implementing a CPL team coexisting with MLS clubs or have the CSA to evict the MLS clubs to give the market to the new CPL teams

 

Point 1) Montreal is tougher than Toronto fr the simple reason that the Montreal Impact existed before MLS. It's a club with ties to the city and has an organic history with it's supporters. However, an equal number of Italians hate MLS and French fans do not support the Impact. How about having the USL club play in the CanPL? 

Point 2) There will never be any stability or success or harder yet a TV CONTRACT without the big 3 markets??? The big 3 markets must come first. 

12 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

I think the idea is that they are better off launching now and proving the league is stable to attract investors, rather than waiting until they finally get all three of those markets lined up. 

There is no stability and it will never be attractive without those 3. Period. 

10 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

You have to find somebody willing to invest when it looks like a bit of a fool's errand if they are up against MLS. If the MLS teams were not there then CPL would probably be doable as a standalone national league averaging 5000 or so overall. With them present it looks very far-fetched when three markets with about half the population of the country are highly problematic, to say nothing of Ottawa and Edmonton that are also no sure thing. To make it fly either the MLS teams themselves would have to be forced to be there, which is highly unlikely in a who takes the hit on loss of frachise value when TFC are being valued at $USD 245 million by Forbes magazine sort of way, or you need to factor in their B teams at D2 level, which I suspect would not fly in Hamilton and would be a far tougher sell in cities like Winnipeg and Calgary. A square peg needs to be driven into a round hole at some point in all of this.

I really don't get some of you, I don't mean that disrespectfully but you guys really need to step back and listen to what you are writing. 

Your target for this league is a measly 5,000 to 7,500 people YET I constantly keep reading that we can't establish a soccer club in an area of 5million people???  because WHY? Because MLS is such a universally loved league, with a loyal soccer-educated following that kills with TV ratings? 

Yes the only place a soccer club would work is Regina, you know because there is no MLS around? My goodness

11 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

Winnipeg Valour is a great name. The supporters could march down Valour Roac

There are 2 beautiful places for a stadium 1) right across the Goldeyes Baseball field or on the waterfront Property off of Higgins, that whole block from Main to Nairn is begging for a huge redevelopment with stadium, shopping malls and condos. 

 

4 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

I find it interesting that people are worried about a second team in one of the big three markets while there has been a lot of talk suggesting that Regina is likely for a team. I'm well aware of the potential issues facing a new team competing for fans with an MLS team as well as the fact that Regina would have no competition within a five and half hour drive (assuming Saskatoon is not involved), but from a purely population standpoint, if Regina can fly, 4 teams can fly in Toronto. 

Can we all just process this for a second please. 

4 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

I think there's about the same chance that a CPL team can get relegated to L1O as there is that the CSA would force MLS teams to the CPL

It would be counter-productive of the CSA to do that. 

Can someone explain why TFC would not want their USL team in the CanPL? 
Or why the CSA would not want the MLS USL teams in the CanPL? (Other than it makes the CanPL look D2)
 

4 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

It's not going to happen. Even if they did mean their desanctioning threat, I think it would be more of a threat to USSF potentially losing Bradley and Altidore (by playing for an unsanctioned team) ahead of the gold cup than anything about forcing teams over. 

Vic is throwing his weight around. He will get want we all want. Canadian equals in MLS. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

16 minutes ago, reme90 said:

Your target for this league is a measly 5,000 to 7,500 people YET I constantly keep reading that we can't establish a soccer club in an area of 5million people???  because WHY? Because MLS is such a universally loved league, with a loyal soccer-educated following that kills with TV ratings?

How long have you lived in Canada? Getting 5,000 to 7,500 in the GTA to regularly show up and just as importantly actually pay to see pro soccer has only been achieved by TFC in the last thirty years. Other attempts in D1 Canadian leagues and D2 USSF leagues have struggled to even reach four figures consistently in terms of paid as opposed to announced attendance. Outside of this messageboard this debate barely even registers with most soccer fans in Canada. Here's the response to the Guardian article so far on RPB's main subforum:

http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?39446-Another-reason-I-would-like-to-see-a-Canada-Only-league

 

[Viruk42]

3 hours ago, reme90 said:

TFC is a cookie cutter franchise with consumers. The CANPL has a chance to build a CLUB, that represents the city and it's people. There are MILLIONS of people who don't support TFC and within those millions is a Soccer-First demographic that HATES MLS and everything it stands for. They support real authentic soccer and they are hungry for a club of their own. They would become true SUPPORTERS who don't jump ship because its a bad season.

So I've been reading your comments on this thread for a little bit, and I feel like you're putting the cart before the horse here. We don't have a league right now, we have 5 pro teams (3 of which won't be joining our league anytime soon), and yet we're somehow going to magically conjure up the 30+ teams required to make a pro/rel league within the next few years? Oh, but because it's going to be "real authentic soccer", the fans will flock to it! 

Why? Because they're not just going to be teams, they're going to be clubs. You know, sporting clubs, like the ones in Europe and elsewhere. The mainstream professional sporting clubs that haven't existed in Canada since the NHL was formed in 1917? Oh yes, because everyone here is familiar with them. 

You're right though, there are a significant number people in the GTA who don't support TFC - while being devoted followers of their semi-ancestral clubs back home, or at least the European club they or their family adopted at some point. But why would those people follow "real authentic soccer" here? They already have a team overseas, they don't need one here. If they were just "authentic" soccer fans ripe for picking, wouldn't they also support our national team, rather than following Italy, or Portugal, or Brazil, or whoever. So if they're not willing to follow the local national team, even as a 2nd team, why would they be willing to follow the local "authentic" club team? They already have one.

 

I mean, okay, I love the idea. I would love it if we had, say, a top league of some ~18 teams with three regional divisions of similar size below (west, central/ontario/GTA, east) that would feed it. I would love it if we had the fans to support that. But there is simply *no* evidence to suggest it would work. The Ottawa Fury are the first ever professional soccer team in Ottawa (maybe that's why we haven't hosted a CMNT game since 1989?), it's in a brand new stadium, the team was great last year, there's *no* competition in baseball/basketball/whatever, and it's a relatively convenient location (I mean, I hate bank street and the f*cking business owners association that insists on having on-street parking which reduces a major road and bus route to 1 lane each way, but that's a separate issue). And yet they're averaging just ~5,500 fans this year, their highest attended year yet. Their highest attendance for a single game was the opener at TD place, with 14,593. The best otherwise was 9,346. 

Ottawa-Gatineau is the 4th largest metropolitan area with 1.2mil (according to the 2011 census). That's 3.6% of Canada. If you wanted to have 60 clubs (3 levels of 20 or 4 levels of 15), mathematically, Ottawa would have at least 2 of those. And yet the one team is only averaging ~5,500 fans. That's simply not enough to support two teams - hell, it's barely enough for one.

 

So again, let's put the horse before the cart. Let's get a league, let's support it and make it work. Then maybe we can talk about expanding and introducing pro/rel. But at this time? There is simply no evidence to suggest we can do it the way you want *and* have it be a success. I'm a socialist, I would love to see community owned teams, but that's not how most Canadians think, so it's not going to happen. I'm a Habs fan, and some people were defending the owner because "without an owner, there's no team", even though it'd cost each Montrealer around $750 to meet Forbes' valuation on the team. Could easily be done *if* that were the culture, *if* that were something the public knew, understood, and wanted. But it's not. So let's just stick to what we can get, rather than living in some fantasy land where millions of Torontonians are (very privately) begging for an "authentic" local club to support. 

[dyslexic nam]

^^^  In a nutshell, there is a reason MLS went with the structure it did.  Its because the more "authentic"  alternative was deemed unsustainable and/or implausible by the folks who spent a lot of time and effort deciding how to structure the league.

[Ruffian]

CPL will also be franchise owned. Just as "authentic" as MLS. I will support these teams just as much as MLS because hopefully they will drive better Canadian soccer player development. I don't understand why so many people are against a league just because it is not exactly how they would have built it. It is local soccer that I can watch and support. For me it is better than supporting a team from the country I was born in and rarely get to watch or feel part of.

[Gopherbashi]

6 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

CPL will also be franchise owned. Just as "authentic" as MLS. I will support these teams just as much as MLS because hopefully they will drive better Canadian soccer player development. I don't understand why so many people are against a league just because it is not exactly how they would have built it. It is local soccer that I can watch and support. For me it is better than supporting a team from the country I was born in and rarely get to watch or feel part of.

It's the same reason why it's so tough to build transit in Toronto these days; because it's gone so long without something proper that everyone's already built their own mental fantasy map of what it "should" be.