Canadian Premier League

[Complete Homer]

18 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

That is fair, but likely the expansion fee for a CPL team will be substantially smaller then even the CFL's 7 million figure, which may be a worthwhile investment, especially considering the worth of the franchise will likely rise quickly due to those contract costs.

Oh I'm not saying it's not worth it, I was just preempting the criticism I was expecting to hear. 

[ted]

On 2016-09-10 at 10:48 PM, AnOutsider said:

Canada got its own Tinfoil Ted... I think.

Oi!  What's that about?!?! 

[Ansem]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_Field

The venue was constructed by Nussli Group in three months, cost $14.4 million and opened on June 15, 2010. The venue featured 20,500 roofed bucket seats—with the remaining 7,000 being benches—12 luxury suites, a press room, flood lighting and a FieldTurf artificial turf. The venue's record attendance are two sell-out matches: for the Lions it occurred in inaugural 2010 regular-season match against the Saskatchewan Roughriders; for the Whitecaps, it was a regular-season match against the Los Angeles Galaxy. Dismantling took place in November and December 2011 and the site is now used as a community playing field.

 

Just putting it out there that a CPL wouldn't necessarily require an initial $200M investment for a soccer stadium. For a starting league, a stadium like that that sits between 10 to 15k is a good way to reduce risk and spending.

 

If the CPL becomes a huge success, then building a proper soccer stadium becomes a no brainer.

 

 

[zen]

Now that's the kind of stadium I could get behind, also a running track would really kill the experience for me.

[Macksam]

That kind of stadium would be ideal for a lot of the smaller markets without a suitable venue. However, I imagine that's not the type of venue that could withstand  hurricanes and quakes, which isn't a big issue for us. However, what about heavy snow falls? 

[Shway]

1 hour ago, Macksam said:

However, what about heavy snow falls? 

That all depends on the schedule type. 

Fall-Summer (playing games in November) ....then yea

Summer-Fall (playing games in the beginning of March)...possible

 

[Gordon]

You have to remember that an MLS franchise fee also buys a share of SUM Marketing, which has value far in excess of the actual owner/operator share of MLS. 

[Gopherbashi]

On 2016-09-07 at 5:44 PM, ironcub14 said:

Just went through the NASL sub-forum quickly (it was my 2nd home up to a year ago), and I found this from BHTC Mike on the 1st page of the Fury USL thread. This is the best encapsulation of what I believe is the biggest advantage for a USL Canada over a CPL, and something I truly believe in.

"Instead of having to find five to seven more well capitalized investors, with appropriate facilities ready, and launch them all at the same time, new teams can be added one-by-one as they are ready. We can get out of the waiting game and actually manifest the growth of Canadian pro soccer."

This (very level-headed) view is why I still like the interleague idea - maintain a separate league but have a ton of interleague play with NASL if you're short on teams.  Then do your own separate thing for the playoffs.

[Gopherbashi]

On 2016-09-08 at 3:31 PM, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

Well, then they really have no business calling it the Canadian Premier League.

As happy as I would be to root for Hamilton, that's an eastern Canadian League, no offence.

So the Canadian Soccer League v2.0?

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

8 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

So the Canadian Soccer League v2.0?

pretty much.  There's a reason I'd never heard of it until I came on here.  

This is the reason trudeau 1.0 wasn't well liked in alberta.  People got the impression southeastern Canada thought it was all of Canada.  I may not know everything there is to know about eastern Canada, but I would never have the gall to call a league that included Edmonton Calgary Vancouver Regina Saskatoon and Winnipeg a "Canadian League".

Like yes, our population is a little bit more spread out, but lol come on people

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

Can we talk about how the schedule might work?  My idea was basically you have one or two long road trips where you hit every spot in the opposite conference and thats it(as opposed to making repeated cross country flights)

Curious what other people think.

[Gopherbashi]

3 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

pretty much.  There's a reason I'd never heard of it until I came on here.  

This is the reason trudeau 1.0 wasn't well liked in alberta.  People got the impression southeastern Canada thought it was all of Canada.  I may not know everything there is to know about eastern Canada, but I would never have the gall to call a league that included Edmonton Calgary Vancouver Regina Saskatoon and Winnipeg a "Canadian League".

Like yes, our population is a little bit more spread out, but lol come on people

But you're all so far away.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

Just now, Gopherbashi said:

But you're all so far away.

lol uhhhh sorry?

[Gopherbashi]

On 2016-09-09 at 5:25 PM, ironcub14 said:

When I look at this V's CPL thread 10 years down the road in 2026, on some fancy blinging virtual reality device of the sorts...

I'll drop 10 Justinbucks on the discussion being about the ghost of Anthony Totera leaking that the league will start in 2028.

[Gopherbashi]

On 2016-09-09 at 6:32 PM, Complete Homer said:

I see the argument for one of KW or London well down the line as an expansion, depending on how their populations grow, but you don't think that Hamilton, London, and KW are a bit close, as they are all about an hour away from each other? You've got to think that the TiCats would be accounting for fans from the anything-but-Toronto southern Ontario crowd

Yeah, but if there isn't a Toronto team, I don't think you'll get many fans driving out from London or KW to see Hamilton v Oshawa at Tim Hortons Field.

Of course that's just my Toronto opinion, but I still think that local rivalries are one of the best ways of generating genuine buzz & interest in something new.  (Same reason why I think the NHL needs to plop a team in Houston so Dallas can play against someone they care about, but that's a different topic altogether).

[Gopherbashi]

I was just having a look at the list of media markets in Canada, and noticed that all of GTHA+Niagara is considered the same market.  I'm way out of my element on this one, but is there any chance this could cause problems for a second GTA team operating alongside Hamilton in the same market in regards to a TV deal?

(For fun, the other markets in southern Ontario are KW, London, Windsor, Barrie, Kingston, and Ptbo.)

[baulderdash77]

That's out of my area of knowledge too.  I think I read once upon a time that it's one media market because of the broadcast radius of the CN tower.  For the purposes of radio and OTA tv it's the same market.  

But it's an awfully big one - 7 million people.  I'm sure there's enough market for a Toronto team and a Hamilton team  

 

 

 

[Gopherbashi]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/sep/13/mls-canada-american-citizens

Montagliani believes a Canadian professional league will be launched within five years.

Great.

[Ansem]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/sep/13/mls-canada-american-citizens

Montagliani warns that unless a critical issue is addressed – that Canadian players are treated as equal to Americans under MLS rules – Soccer Canada may take sweeping and dramatic action to block Toronto FC, Montreal Impact and Vancouver Whitecaps from continuing to play in the league.

Wow, talk about pressure

The numbers tell the story: according to MLS, of the possible 560 roster places available on MLS teams, just 24 are taken by Canadian players. Just five of those play for non-Canadian teams. The balance is so skewed, the math is worth checking again and again. But it’s true. Canadian teams make up 15% of the league but only just over four percent of the league’s players are Canadian.

Thanks for nothing MLS

 

“As I experienced it, it wasn’t about the Canadian players,” Nakajima-Farran says. “It was about the American league exploiting the Canadian cities. I would understand it if the Canadian teams were bringing in young players and promoting them but Toronto was bringing these American guys back. Even Montreal was trying to replace me with an American guy.”

So can we stop with the USL and NASL solution?

 

In New York, the MLS president Mark Abbott sees only sunshine: “We have created lots of opportunities for Canadian players that did not exist before those teams were there. The investment that each of our teams are making in player development, if not exclusively focussed on Canadian players, is also a benefit.”

Abbott says “immigration laws in the United States don’t allow us to treat Canadian players as domestic in the US.” However, Bob Foos, executive director of the MLS players union, says the issue is MLS not wanting to challenge US discrimination laws and expose the league to a potential lawsuit.

“In essence, [if MLS claimed Canadian players as domestic] you would be discriminating against non-Canadian people in the US in favor of Canadians,” says Foos. “It is one thing to say you need to be a US citizen or a green card holder to be considered domestic. It is another thing to say if you’re Canadian you have these rights and if you’re not Canadian you have different rights.”

Hence, don't expect that rule to change anytime soon

 

“The league benefits from having strong markets with strong owners and great stadiums,” Mark Abbott says and, while Toronto’s Bezbatchenko has issues with the player status rules, he echoes MLS’s enthusiasm.

“If you look at attendance, [Canadian teams] have some of the most passionate fans in MLS,” he says. “Add the money we are investing in our academies and ownership that believes soccer will be the biggest sport in North America. The league wants to grow and it sees new markets where it can grow. It is important for MLS to be in the biggest markets in North America.”

MLS doesn't care about the CSA program, they only care about MLS and the US program

 

“The Canadian boys had been together for a long time,” he explains. “When you play with guys who have gone through the same system, you have respect for each other. We had always wanted to play together in a domestic league. We thought that would be Toronto, Vancouver, or Montreal. It would make sense. But there is no respect for Canadian players in MLS.”

I'm really hoping this article is opening eyes in regard to the USSF and MLS view on Canadian players and Canada in general.

 

From MLS

“There is an opportunity to contribute to the growth of Canadian soccer in a variety of different ways: providing playing opportunities and investing in player development programs focussed on players that live in Canada. As you elevate the opportunity for Canadian players, we believe the Canadian national team will benefit from that.”

Stubborn as ever, they truly believe they are helping us.

 

Montagliani says that when Canada Soccer signed off on MLS operating clubs within its jurisdiction (a national federation, as well as the regional confederation, and FIFA must approve cross-border participation in leagues) the intention was for many Canadian players to be on the teams.

“That never came to fruition,” he says. “MLS still hasn’t dealt with the issue of treating Canadian players equal to American players. The truth is that if there was no protection for the American player like there is I bet there would be less American players in MLS. That protectionist attitude has helped the American player. Good on them but it definitely hasn’t helped the Canadian player. MLS has a duty to clubs in both countries. I think they are sincere but I don’t think they wake up in the morning and the first thing they think about is how they can help the Canadian players.”

Straight from the CSA & CONCACAF boss. The USSF has absolutely no interest in helping Canada potentially rival them for World Cup spot. They are happy to see stay the way we are.

Soccer officials highlight several challenges facing any professional Canadian league including geography, population size, and travel expenses. Australia, however, with comparable obstacles, has carved out a professional league that is both a talent pipeline for its national team and a legitimate attraction for (ageing) international stars like Alessandro Del Piero, Robbie Fowler, and Dwight Yorke.

“It is possible but where are you going to get the players?” asks union boss Bob Foose. “It is going to be of a substantially lower quality. If you are going to put together 10 or 12 teams I don’t think you are going to find the volume of guys.”

Quality will be an issue at first, just like it was for MLS when it started. There's no shortcut to avoid that. We have to go through the growing pain at first. However we have good Canadian players oversees and in MLS barely seeing any minutes that would gladly come home, including those in the twilight of their career.

 

With a pro league, a lot of the challenges can always be overcome by money.”

It's a clue that the CSA are indeed looking for owner with very deep pockets

 

It is unlikely Canada’s MLS teams will participate in a national league, however.

“There is no reason to foresee any change,” says Toronto’s Tim Bezbatchenko, adding he can see a place for Toronto FC’s reserve side in a future Canadian league.

“I think the more players that can be playing professionally and earning a living in Canada is going to help the national team more,” Bezbatchenko says. “If you have more coaches, more administrators, more strength and conditioning coaches and more people staying in the game, then you have a wider net that is going to help the game grow.”

Seems that TFC would allow TFC2 into CPL. Most likely so would Montreal and Vancouver. Not sure how I feel about that. It goes against what CPL are trying to build, a Pro league, not a development league where you allow 3 clubs as feeder to a competing league. Not sure you'd ever see Chelsea academy play in the Scottish Premiership. Makes no sense right?

 

In conclusion, USL, NASL, MLS and USSF are NOT the solution. Sure we should get whatever we get from them but CPL is the only way to go. I'm satisfied with Vic's resolved into making CPL happen and his honest opinion on the USA vs Canada matter.

From what we can gather, they want to launch a league that will be viable and sustainable. They are taking their time to do it right and are only looking with owners with deep pockets that will commit for the long run and willing to go through the growing pain. I like that at the same time he's trying to get more concessions from MLS regarding the status of Canadian players within MLS.

As for his "within 5 year comment", it's anytime within 5 years, could be 2017-2018 or 2019. The secrecy regarding CPL might be a very strategic move to catch NASL and MLS offguard so they get less time to try and counter CPL. Make no mistake about it, MLS and  NSL will fight to keep their Canadian share of the market. They won't just lay down for CPL and let it claim the rest of the country. From a business strategy point of view, his vagueness regarding the start of the league is absolutely logical.

 

[Keano]

Ha. Imagine a CPL with those three actually in it as flagship franchises... "stolen" from MLS. Although I guess they'd be unrelated reincarnations rather than the same actual setups.

[-Hammer-]

13 hours ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

Can we talk about how the schedule might work?  My idea was basically you have one or two long road trips where you hit every spot in the opposite conference and thats it(as opposed to making repeated cross country flights)

Curious what other people think.

My choice would be two divisions (East and West) and you do a Home @Home against every team outside the division once a season and you do Home @Home against every team inside your division twice a season.

Then at the end of the season, the two division leaders play a Home @Home series for the league trophy. That way, arguments about a stacked or crap division causing better records can be silenced, as well as giving you a major, marketable event to wrap up your season.

This should cut down in travel costs but still make the league important, competitive, balanced and fully Canadian. It certainly stops the MLS and CFL problem of more then half the teams qualifying for the post season and only needing to win a handful of games at the end.

This means that in theory, you are only looking at 4 flights a year per club in an 8 team league (with one extra flight if they make it to the championship game) and the rest of the games being able to be handled by bus or train. Certainly far better then Edmonton and Ottawa having to practically fly everywhere for games.

Review this structure after you have 10+ teams.

[baulderdash77]

If we start with a 6 team league it'll probably be a single table league.  Maybe with 8 you get a double table.

6 teams, 2 home games against each team, 20 game season.  

[BrennanFan]

"within 5 years" can only mean there is nothing concrete as of yet.  Frustrating.

[baulderdash77]

2 years from now is within 5 years.  So is 3 years.

All we know is that there's discussions going on and the league creation is in progress.  It's really hard to launch a new league and there's lots of details.  A start date of 2018 honestly would surprise me.

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

"within 5 years" can only mean there is nothing concrete as of yet.  Frustrating.

or he's purposely being vague so that rival leagues don't get more time into coming up with ways to counter CPL. NASL and MLS won't give CPL a free pass, they will fight to keep their hold on the Canadian Market. Coming up with the right way to market the league and fend off competitors from the USA and other summer sports is complex and takes time.

That's CPL should aim at wiping out NASL from the Canadian map and conquer the rest of the Canadian Market that MLS doesn't deemed important or complaisantly assuming are already supporting one of the big 3