Jump to content

Canadian Premier League


ted

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 10k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I think the thing that most people are missing here is that, despite the fact that MLS or the USSF would have every right to sue the CSA if they desanctioned the three Canadian MLS teams (and they could also sue FIFA if they wished, FIFA has the trump card. Any federation that sued FIFA would be excluded from FIFA sanctioning and thereby participation in any FIFA event, not to mention there are a ton of ramifications for players, coaches and officials from that federation.

Now maybe if the USSF wanted to establish another soccer group to challenge FIFA ... a coalition of the willing perhaps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

I think the thing that most people are missing here is that, despite the fact that MLS or the USSF would have every right to sue the CSA if they desanctioned the three Canadian MLS teams (and they could also sue FIFA if they wished, FIFA has the trump card. Any federation that sued FIFA would be excluded from FIFA sanctioning and thereby participation in any FIFA event, not to mention there are a ton of ramifications for players, coaches and officials from that federation.

Now maybe if the USSF wanted to establish another soccer group to challenge FIFA ... a coalition of the willing perhaps.

Coalition of the willing...The mother of coalition ???

That's the most plausible outcome is what you just wrote. Again, Victor wouldn't drop that bomb of a threat if he didn't do his homework first. FIFA holds all the cards

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Ansem said:

Coalition of the willing...The mother of coalition ???

That's the most plausible outcome is what you just wrote. Again, Victor wouldn't drop that bomb of a threat if he didn't do his homework first. FIFA holds all the cards

My deep suspicion is that Mont Vic dropped that hint simply as a threat to influence events, perhaps the current negotiations between CSA and MLS or something else. Consider the context ... direct quote to a non-Canadian publication ... much more heavy hitting than if it was reported by one of the usual suspects like John Molinaro (this is nothing against him ... however, it would not have made nearly the splash inside and outside Canada as we've all heard it before).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, zen said:

 

Okay maybe not never, but it's highly improbable. However, you are being overly optimistic.

You're right that the US has been slow to catch onto soccer. There are 2 main groups of fans the Europhiles and Latino's who they have yet to entice, both of these groups have allegiances to teams in other countries, and the general view in these groups is that MLS is inferior, which no one is disputing, also no one is asking them to cut their ties with clubs abroad. All that MLS has to do to gain viewership among these groups is to raise the level of play, which has been steadily increasing, and academy developed players will do wonders for this. And like here the demographics are changing there too, and interest will grow as the Latino population grows. TV viewship will increase, it's inevitable. 

My hope is that this league can be to MLS what the championship is to the Premier League. That is the best I think anyone could hope for and no way does it diminish the value of the league.

 

Optimistic? I never said it will happen, only that it could.

To raise the level of play, they will have to exponentially increase the salary cap. Out of the current ownership groups, a good handful of them are bringing the league down by be refusing to spend any decent coinage on player salaries, which is why we have a broken DP system that let's the few big spenders splash huge money on three players while the rest of the league is satisfactory with the bear minimum. As long as the current owners are in charge, I highly doubt we'll see significant change anytime soon.

The CPL has the potential to be bigger than Championship. Come on man.

 

1 hour ago, zen said:

How are owners are not keeping the quality of MLS down? Yes, growth is slower with salary caps compared to a model where they don't exist, but the last time soccer wasn't limited but unrestrained spending, it was one of the factors that led to the downfall of NASL. This is not the equivalent of keeping the quality of MLS down, and that isn't a statement anyone can make when investors are clearly investing millions in infrastructure and youth development. It would be non-nonsensical for them to spend all that money while at the same time limiting growth when that growth is what will lead to increased profits for them. Spending the right way is better than senseless spending.

See above.

The ones that are investing in infrastructure and youth development, which aren't many that are putting significant dollar into it minus the three Canadian clubs and handful of US based teams, aren't the problem. It's the Chicagos and Colorados of MLS that are keeping things stagnant.

Spending the right way is better than senseless spending? Right now the league is doing neither.

1 hour ago, zen said:

Truth is, as much as you lot think the CPL is going to do well with little difficulty, it is equally likely to destined to mediocrity, of course we have to work to over come that. However, the majority of Canadian's either doesn't care enough about the sport to spend their money to watch games, or people think this endeavour is a waste of time, and would rather support their MLS teams and/or teams in Europe. In that respect Canada has many of the same issues that the US does when it comes to growing the sport, and CPL will face the same issues that MLS did like not playing in soccer specific stadiums, playing in front of small crowds etc. It will be a very very long time till the CPL will be successful enough to be considered legitimate by the vast majority of people in this country and around the world, and don't expect any big TV deals until then.

You lot? I sense a British ex pat. London I presume?

The big difference in the US is MLS has to compete against the big four leagues for eyeballs. They have a myriad of sports teams in their own back yard they gravitate towards. Canada on the other hand has a handful of NHL and CFL teams. There's a lot of room for another entity to come in and gain hold of Canadian sports viewership.

The majority of Canadians? You canvassed the neighbourhoods with those surveys?

1 hour ago, zen said:

The CPL will never be as big as MLS, no amount of wishful thinking on the part of the CSA or anyone here will change that.

I thought you just said "maybe not never".

It could be. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

Again...good luck getting a ruling in their favor in court. FIFA rules takes precedent here. USSF and MLS knew before hand that CSA had last say on anything going on in their territory.

It's like me and you signing a a contract and just because some clause in it aren't in your favor, you choose to go to court to get compensation. If our contract doesn't violate any laws, courts will dismiss your claim

Hypothetically, using TFC as an example. If the CSA never indicated to MLS and MLSE when they first purchased a franchise that they would ever use their power to de-sanctioning the team, I believe the MLS could argue that it was their understanding that they would be allowed to operate in perpetuity or till the organization ceased to exist. And I believe the law would also hold that if the CSA allowed MLSE to continue to invest in projects without indication that they could be de-sanctioned, that it would be improper for them to do so 

Now, I know it's an if and a big one, and I don't know it would win, but I could see a case being fought on those grounds. Which would still result in a ton of money being spent.

24 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

I think the thing that most people are missing here is that, despite the fact that MLS or the USSF would have every right to sue the CSA if they desanctioned the three Canadian MLS teams (and they could also sue FIFA if they wished, FIFA has the trump card. Any federation that sued FIFA would be excluded from FIFA sanctioning and thereby participation in any FIFA event, not to mention there are a ton of ramifications for players, coaches and officials from that federation.

Now maybe if the USSF wanted to establish another soccer group to challenge FIFA ... a coalition of the willing perhaps.

Well let's not forget there are a lot of countries and leagues that would love to say "Fuck off" to FIFA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, zen said:

Hypothetically, using TFC as an example. If the CSA never indicated to MLS and MLSE when they first purchased a franchise that they would ever use their power to de-sanctioning the team, I believe the MLS could argue that it was their understanding that they would be allowed to operate in perpetuity or till the organization ceased to exist. And I believe the law would also hold that if the CSA allowed MLSE to continue to invest in projects without indication that they could be de-sanctioned, that it would be improper for them to do so 

Now, I know it's an if and a big one, and I don't know it would win, but I could see a case being fought on those grounds. Which would still result in a ton of money being spent.

Well let's not forget there are a lot of countries and leagues that would love to say "Fuck off" to FIFA

CSA not explaining ALL of CSA & FIFA rules to MLSE??? You're joking right? ???.

Ignorance is not a valid defense in court ?

I think those countries you're referring too would give the F to the USA way before FIFA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quite possibly one of the best interviews I've listened to in regards to needing our own league.

Punctuated by the simple facts that when we qualified last in 1986, it was because we had the NASL and all North American players were treated as domestics and just on the tail end before they closed up shop, and the last time we came close was 1994 pretty much at the end of the old CSL which began Canada's decline.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Optimistic? I never said it will happen, only that it could.

To raise the level of play, they will have to exponentially increase the salary cap. Out of the current ownership groups, a good handful of them are bringing the league down by be refusing to spend any decent coinage on player salaries, which is why we have a broken DP system that let's the few big spenders splash huge money on three players while the rest of the league is satisfactory with the bear minimum. As long as the current owners are in charge, I highly doubt we'll see significant change anytime soon.

Now I'm not saying it's a solution but they do have Targeted Allocation Money too now, which allows teams to buy lower end DPs to fill out the middle of their roster. I think there is a recognition that more money needs to be invested, and that group will win out sooner rather than later. I think the assessment that you take the DPs out and the level is horrendous is wrong, there is an obvious difference but it would still be lower level English Championship/upper level League One, which is saying a lot considering the level 10 years ago.

8 minutes ago, Macksam said:

 

See above.

The ones that are investing in infrastructure and youth development, which aren't many that are putting significant dollar into minus the three Canadian clubs and handful of US based teams, aren't the problem. It's the Chicagos and Colorados of MLS that are keeping things stagnant.

Spending the right way is better than senseless spending? Right now the league is doing neither.

You've named the 2 that most common teams that come to mind, the other team is Columbus. But, other than those 3 I think everyone is doing a good job spending money. Also, DC is going to finally build a new stadium, and New England has apparently been looking for a stadium site.

8 minutes ago, Macksam said:

You lot? I sense a British ex pat. London I presume?

The big difference in the US is MLS has to compete against the big four league for eyeballs. They have a myriad of sports teams in their own back yard they gravitate towards. Canada on the other hand has a handful of NHL and CFL teams. There's a lot of room for another entity to come in and gain hold of Canadian sports viewership.

The majority of Canadians? You canvassed the neighbourhoods with those surveys?

I thought you just said "maybe not never". It could.

I've never stepped foot in the UK lool I think years of following Chelsea have rubbed off on me, then again I'm only 22 haha.

I will say this, I don't have proof to verify that my sample is representative but I believe it to be the case. After speaking to guys I play soccer with - these are guys that don't really follow MLS closely and aren't too educated on the developments in Canadian soccer, but will religiously watch their teams in Europe every week - think a Canadian league would a waste of time, that it would be unsupported in most of the country and that it would be a better idea to focus on MLS. Now these guys that are 20-27, that's the age group CPL should be targeting but if that's the general attitude of the league's target population, simply educating them and bringing them on board is going to be an up hill battle. 

Like I said I want this league to succeed, and that I hope that it's to the MLS what the Championship is to the Premier League, but I think that people need to be realistic about what we have, what needs to, and what can be done about it. That's all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Gopherbashi said:

On a side note, I love how quickly the pendulum swings from "CPL will be a massive laughing-stock of a failure" to "CPL doesn't *have* to be more successful than MLS but it could happen"

I just want to add this to the discussion.  The role of CPL is not necessarily to be better than MLS anyways.  It is meant to be an intermediate stepping stone between amatuer/semi-pro and MLS/Europe.  It will hopefully be enjoyable on it's own to it's target market(aka us) and hopefully we can be leaders in developing a fan community that others want to be a part of.  The goal is to help Canada Soccer, with the ultimate goal being a ) making a world cup and b ) hosting a world cup.  

Those two things would be a game changer.  The landscape of professional sports in the country will be forever altered by either of those things.  It would inspire a generation(like many were inspired by our lone world cup appearance), and even non-soccer fans, even soccer hating fans would be swept up in the magic of a world cup in Canada.

From there, who knows what might happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, zen said:

I will say this, I don't have proof to verify that my sample is representative but I believe it to be the case. After speaking to guys I play soccer with - these are guys that don't really follow MLS closely and aren't too educated on the developments in Canadian soccer, but will religiously watch their teams in Europe every week - think a Canadian league would a waste of time, that it would be unsupported in most of the country and that it would be a better idea to focus on MLS. Now these guys that are 20-27, that's the age group CPL should be targeting but if that's the general attitude of the league's target population, simply educating them and bringing them on board is going to be an up hill battle. 

The key thing is that it needs to professional looking. TFC crowds are young, like the ones you describe. The individuals in question don't like talking about MLS because outside of going to a game, which everyone says is universally fun, there's nothing really to talk about due to the quality of play. However, those individuals, who love talking European soccer, still go to MLS games. At least that's how my experience in the GTA has been regarding TFC. What I'm getting at is this, the CPL shouldn't concern itself on whether it will become watercooler/patio/family/friends get together talk. That will take time as even MLS hasn't achieved that. The CPL should concern itself with presenting a professional product people should go see live.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

CSA not explaining ALL of CSA & FIFA rules to MLSE??? You're joking right? ???.

Ignorance is not a valid defense in court ?

I think those countries you're referring too would give the F to the USA way before FIFA

It's not ignorance. Now I'll give you an example, it may not extend to our situation, but I think it's somewhat analogous.

Say you own a piece of land, and someone decides to put up a house on it, you know very well that they've done it but have not taken immediate action against them, say 5 years later a you want to develop the land, you do not have the right to evict them any longer because you have implicitly let them use the land. You can charge them rent but you have to let them stay. 

I found this somewhat analogous because it shows that in some instances an implicit action does still result in an obligation by the part of the party that provided it. Similarly, if the CSA provided endorsement implicitly maybe it can be argued that they are obligated to continue to do so. You may say there is no contract in this example, but then I have to ask is there even a contract with the CSA? What kind of consideration is involved in this case between the parties for them to be able to form a contract? What is the nature of the contract?

Additionally, ignorance is not a valid defense in a criminal or civil trial. Contract law is a little different, never-the-less I was talking about potential for MLS claiming misrepresentation on the part of the CSA.

I wouldn't presume that if there was a contract in place that MLS would be so stupid as to include as a clause that the CSA can de-sanction the teams as per their choosing without good cause. This case not being one of the reasons. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Macksam said:

This is why I believe MLS will be stuck in mediocrity for the foreseeable future. You can't go far when the whole system reeks of suburban college boy soccer.

We have removed all factors that create greatness. First no scores, then no A,B or C teams, make them all balanced. No tournaments, no trophies, no winners, no travel, no more than an 1 hour training, no more than 2-3 times a week, no earning minutes on the field. Even our most competitive youth league (OPDL), which should be he standard for the best players filters out everyone EXCEPT the suburban rich kid who can afford $5,000 in fees, plus travel. 

It's no wonder then our top teams, face no consequences for losing, no consequences for failing, no consequences for bad business choices. They are Perennial Winners never to have to pay for mediocrity, always remaining a part of an exclusive Division 1 club.  

More than anything, I wish that the CANPL absolutely abhors the franchise model and looks to build clubs all over the country. Because even people on this forum have no clue what clubs are. They seem to think that ONLY big billionaire corporate entities are the sole guardians of the sport. They forget, it belongs to the people to the communities and to the supporters. 

8 hours ago, dsqpr said:

Great post. I'm afraid far too many North Americans just don't understand this about football.

Even on here, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that agrees. Some here seem to think that TORONTO can only have 1 club, that Hamilton should be able to block OTHER cities that are 100+kilometers away from having their own clubs. 

WHAT ABSURDITY, until we get educated and remove the blinders. I'm afraid Canada will always be set in mediocrity. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

I think the thing that most people are missing here is that, despite the fact that MLS or the USSF would have every right to sue the CSA if they desanctioned the three Canadian MLS teams (and they could also sue FIFA if they wished, FIFA has the trump card. Any federation that sued FIFA would be excluded from FIFA sanctioning and thereby participation in any FIFA event, not to mention there are a ton of ramifications for players, coaches and officials from that federation.

Now maybe if the USSF wanted to establish another soccer group to challenge FIFA ... a coalition of the willing perhaps.

Perhaps worth bearing in mind that the US legal system has already completely gutted FIFA and CONCACAF in terms of their internal corruption. They are not above the law of any of the jurisdictions in which they operate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, reme90 said:

WHAT ABSURDITY, until we get educated and remove the blinders. I'm afraid Canada will always be set in mediocrity. 

I don't think you get what people are saying. Most people here would not opposed to a more open model, but they don't believe it's possible for a variety of reasons, which have already been clearly explained to you. You are the one that has blinders on however because you can't seem to acknowledge reality, more so you believe your way is the only way to succeed. I suggest you comeback after you've educated yourself and are actually willing to engage in a proper debate rather than basically saying "you guys are wrong, youre stupid, go educate yourself, I'm 100% right"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there is a middle ground here. 

I don't think Toronto will ever see more than TFC and a suburban/Mississauga CPL team this generation, there just isn't the interest yet to support several pro teams.

However, I legitimately think that L1O and it's equivalents will eventually form a de facto D2 national league (regionalized leagues + short playoff between winners of each league, subsidized by the CSA). It will be semi-pro, but lots of nations have semi pro D2, it's nothing to scoff at. When you look at it that way, there will be four or five clubs in Toronto, which aligns with both what reme90 envisions and what others in this thread see as realistic

Maybe one day, a very long time from now, a soccer culture emerges that supports those teams to the extent that they can turn pro. It's an extreme long shot, but like I said before, people didn't care about basketball a few generations ago and now it is huge. However, just like in Europe, if it were to happen it would be a long term organic process. You can't mimic that by plunking down a bunch of pro teams and hoping they survive

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

You know I was thinking this exact thing. Additionally if FIFA removed the approval of the cross-border league, desanctioning the three MLS teams would be a formality. 

However, I'm with others who are saying it's tough to see the three MLS teams leaving the league. It would be great (for CanPL) if we suddenly had 3 teams in the 3 biggest markets, but I have trouble envisioning it. 

The owner/operator structure of MLS is such that the league 'owns' the teams not the operators. The Canadian teams would not leave MLS, they would have to relocate to the US. The risk to MLS is huge - not only to they lose 3 of the league's best markets, they also lose 3 potential expansion fees due to the relocation. That is the leverage. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Gordon said:

The owner/operator structure of MLS is such that the league 'owns' the teams not the operators. The Canadian teams would not leave MLS, they would have to relocate to the US. The risk to MLS is huge - not only to they lose 3 of the league's best markets, they also lose 3 potential expansion fees due to the relocation. That is the leverage. 

Yes, that's the best analysis of the situation. That's what the NHL used as an argument to block Balsillie from moving The Coyotes from Glendale to Hamilton.

After some research and debates with people last night, that's exactly what would happen. TFC would likely face the following options if CSA pulled the trigger down the road to de-sanction MLS and stop them from operating in Canada :

  • MLS could let TFC jump to CPL in exchange of MASSIVE compensation (At the very least the value of the franchise and compensation of all kind)
  • MLS would make TFC move to a US market and potentially force MLSE to sell the team if they refuse.
  • Or FIFA would have some kind of scheme or rule we don't know about preventing the move and making TFC play in CPL, then FIFA & CSA would still most likely have to compensate MLS for that.
  • Status Quo, nothing change because MLS finds a way to make Canadian players count as domestic

A-Why am I leaving Vancouver Whitecaps and Montreal Impact out? Someone I know who has legal knowledge said that the owners of those clubs could legally challenge the MLS attempt to force them to move or/and sell their teams.

  1. Montreal Impact: Club originally founded in 1992. MLS franchise granted in 2010.
  2. Vancouver Whitecaps originally founded in 1974. MLS franchise granted in 2009. 

As you can see, the owners would have legal ground to retain full ownership of their teams, however, MLS would likely seek some form of compensation.  TFC is a different case as the team was part of the league expansion contrarily to being an existing club who decided to join the league in exchange of paying an expansion fee. Legally, MLS grip on TFC is hypothetically tighter than the other 2 clubs. Legally, MLS has a stronger case into controlling TFC and forcing a move then Vancouver and Montreal.

In the end, CSA could make MLS life a living hell if they don't accommodate the CSA's request/

B-After hard long thinking on the matter, Status quo seems the most logical outcome scenario. Like Gordon said, MLS cannot afford to lose the big 3 Canadian media markets. That would be a HUGE blow to their potential subsequent TV contracts which is already borderline laughable, considering it's on par with CFL TV deal. Since they can't afford that kind of setback, MLS will try to figure out something.

As demonstrated above, MLS has a tighter leash on TFC than Montreal and Vancouver. With everything that would come into effect by the CSA pulling the trigger on their threats, it's far more smarter for MLS to try harder and make that change of rules regarding domestic players.

C-We have to see it from the CSA point of view as well. MLS came up short on their promises to help the national program. All those barriers listed by Floro on MLS clubs refusing to release players for international tournaments, practices etc... and the domestic rules have made the CSA angry, rightfully so. Despite a few players being the product of MLS, the RESULTS AREN'T THERE. Status quo is not going to do anymore. So why would the CSA let this this thing going much longer?

Might as well start your own league and eliminate all those barriers that have handicapped the Canadian programs for years. If it means getting back the big 3 markets to ensure the success of the league, so be it from their point of view...and it's hard not to understand them. The CSA has FULL jurisdiction in Canada, so why would they let a US league hold the grip on the 3 biggest markets if they aren't getting any type of benefits or results from it?

Would any of you let me crash in your house and Airbnb the basement of your house for almost nothing? Pretty sure you'd call the cops to get me evicted, right?

D-The threat might not be immediate, but it's legit. Organisations like FIFA, CSA and MLS have legal departments just to sort out those kind of things. I repeat, Victor would have NEVER made that threat if it was undoable. This is the CSA putting a Damocles sword on top of MLS. With this threat, CSA just announced/reminded MLS of how much leverage they have over them and how bad the CSA could cripple MLS business model and set them back severely if they keep this up. Thank God for that.

So MLS, the ball is in your court now...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's another card they can play.  The CSA can call the MLS bluff and force USL style sanctioning in any professional team operating in Canada.

For reference the USL rules are: 50 percent of total roster must be CMNT eligible, 50 percent of active game day rosters must be CMNT eligible.  6/11 starters must be CMNT eligible.

That probably gets themselves out of the protracted legal battle because it doesn't force MLS and NASL out of Canada.  It would also force the MLS teams to employ 45 Canadian players and 18 starters, way up from the current 24 and 7 that we have now.

 

edit- plus any Canadian players in MLS.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to fill that out a bit- if 6/11 starters for a Canadian MLS team were required you would see Vancouver starting De Jong, Edgar, Aird, Teibert, maybe Davies and have to pick up a new starter.

Toronto would probably start Johnson, Osorio, Ricketts, Chapman, maybe Morgan, maybe Roberts.

It would impact their competitiveness but MLS is really forcing the CSA's hand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

There's another card they can play.  The CSA can call the MLS bluff and force USL style sanctioning in any professional team operating in Canada.

For reference the USL rules are: 50 percent of total roster must be CMNT eligible, 50 percent of active game day rosters must be CMNT eligible.  6/11 starters must be CMNT eligible.

That probably gets themselves out of the protracted legal battle because it doesn't force MLS and NASL out of Canada.  It would also force the MLS teams to employ 45 Canadian players and 18 starters, way up from the current 24 and 7 that we have now.

 

edit- plus any Canadian players in MLS.

 

Canadian players aren't respected in MLS. Clubs will always favor Americans or International players for comparable talent. I understand what you're saying but at this point we need ground shacking solutions to our National programs, not patches

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, baulderdash77 said:

Just to fill that out a bit- if 6/11 starters for a Canadian MLS team were required you would see Vancouver starting De Jong, Edgar, Aird, Teibert, maybe Davies and have to pick up a new starter.

Toronto would probably start Johnson, Osorio, Ricketts, Chapman, maybe Morgan, maybe Roberts.

It would impact their competitiveness but MLS is really forcing the CSA's hand.

CSA seeks players from both countries to be equals across the board, rightfully so, not different quotas for different clubs. Anything less than that is unacceptable to the CSA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...