Canadian Premier League

[rob.notenboom]

7 hours ago, Gordon said:

The owner/operator structure of MLS is such that the league 'owns' the teams not the operators. The Canadian teams would not leave MLS, they would have to relocate to the US. The risk to MLS is huge - not only to they lose 3 of the league's best markets, they also lose 3 potential expansion fees due to the relocation. That is the leverage. 

Yes excellen point. 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

4 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I still don't see how it would cause MLS to change their stance.  Why would an American League loosen restrictions (to benefit Canadian players) just because the Canadian footy governing body was imposing Canadian content restrictions on Canadian teams?  Maybe I am missing something.

 

I suppose you could argue that the increase in CanContent for our 3 MLS teams would restrict US player opportunities in those markets, but the US federation would be giving up a lot more than that if they opened up every other US market to unrestricted Canucks.   

It's a PR nightmare.

At least that's my guess.  And I certainly intend to make it one for them if they don't hahahaha

[rob.notenboom]

Usually when something is Tweeted out, by the time I'm on here it's already been discussed a lot. Seems that's not the case this time, so here it is, fwiw.

 

[rob.notenboom]

Who knows what that means exactly and to what degree. I can't imagine that they want the entire crazy 'only a bunch of lawyers and accountants could come up with these financial rules' mess. But who knows for sure.

[Gopherbashi]

1 minute ago, rob.notenboom said:

Usually when something is Tweeted out, by the time I'm on here it's already been discussed a lot. Seems that's not the case this time, so here it is, fwiw.

 

Wait, there are *details* about this league?

Who sold their soul to make this happen and how do we thank them?

[zen]

I would assume that would be the case. it really is the best way for owners to protect their investment

[baulderdash77]

Not surprised it's a similar structure to MLS but what is the similarities? 

-Single entity?  

-Players sign with league and not club?

-A Canadian style SUM revenue model?

-Hard cap with a designated player rule?

interesting development.  Anthony Totera seems to have some very legit inside sources.  I'm genuinely interested in what these similarities are.

[Complete Homer]

9 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

Not surprised it's a similar structure to MLS but what is the similarities? 

-Single entity?  

-Players sign with league and not club?

-A Canadian style SUM revenue model?

-Hard cap with a designated player rule?

interesting development.  Anthony Totera seems to have some very legit inside sources.  I'm genuinely interested in what these similarities are.

Wasn't one of the leaks way back (which could no longer be accurate) talking about how they wanted heavy league centralization (as in high revenue sharing, whatever else that could mean), but stopping short of single entity? It seems like they could take a lot of lessons from MLS without getting into the sticky situations that single entity comes with

Then again, there doesn't seem anything else that Totera could mean by that tweet without being fairly inaccurate. 

[baulderdash77]

That would make sense.  Single entity is a neat intelectual concept but after the league matures it loses its appeal a fair bit.  It saved MLS in the early years though.

Centralized marketing, large revenue sharing % and a fixed hard cap are things they can take from MLS without going to single entity.

[-Hammer-]

7 hours ago, shermanator said:

So is the CPL no longer considered just a pipe dream of Duane Rollins?

Sadly the naysayers are going to naysay the league even after it's started because....well I honestly don't know why.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

7 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

Sadly the naysayers are going to naysay the league even after it's started because....well I honestly don't know why.

pretty simple really

[Complete Homer]

50 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

That would make sense.  Single entity is a neat intelectual concept but after the league matures it loses its appeal a fair bit.  It saved MLS in the early years though.

Centralized marketing, large revenue sharing % and a fixed hard cap are things they can take from MLS without going to single entity.

Especially since he said "similar" 

It could go either way. I prefer to have the heavy revenue sharing as opposed to single entity, but whatever it takes to survive and convince owners to get on board is good with me. We've already seen the NASL begin to crash and burn for after only 7 seasons of idealism 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

1 minute ago, Complete Homer said:

Especially since he said "similar" 

It could go either way. I prefer to have the heavy revenue sharing as opposed to single entity, but whatever it takes to survive and convince owners to get on board is good with me. We've already seen the NASL begin to crash and burn for after only 7 seasons of idealism 

I mean.  I don't think the NASL is exactly "crashing and burning" quite yet, although if we poach two of their teams you could maybe make a case for it.

Regardless, at least initially, we should all be in favour of at the very least very heavy revenue sharing.  It lives and dies as a collective.  Perhaps in 20 years we can relax those standards, but for now anyone who suggests otherwise is pretty silly to me.

[Complete Homer]

15 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

I mean.  I don't think the NASL is exactly "crashing and burning" quite yet, although if we poach two of their teams you could maybe make a case for it.

Regardless, at least initially, we should all be in favour of at the very least very heavy revenue sharing.  It lives and dies as a collective.  Perhaps in 20 years we can relax those standards, but for now anyone who suggests otherwise is pretty silly to me.

Probably a bit hyperbolic, but I don't see them surviving long term. Once Ottawa and (probably) Edmonton jump, Ft. Lauderdale and Rayo fold, that's a third of the league gone. If one of the stable franchises (Indy Eleven, etc) lose their nerve and bolt to the USL, I think the house of cards will fold as everyone scrambles to save their investment 

Maybe that's an idea behind single entity (if that is what Totera meant). In single entity, the teams can't leave for another league, maybe it's a built in safety mechanism that is superior to revenue sharing, assuming the league itself survives. 

Edit: that wasn't well thought out. The CSA can already block an attempt to enter a different league, so single entity wouldn't provide extra protection there I suppose 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

10 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

I just pasted the link.

He said the board is behind the project and the process.  The objective is to launch in 2018 and they're progressing towards that.  Not ready for a detailed announcement to protect the project and the people behind it.

Think it's more because the CPL would need the three MLS franchises (or access to their markets with no USSF-sanctioned competitor) for CPL to ever be viable and there's an implicit threat being made to MLS at the moment over future sanctionings. If you think the previously unthinkable on that, it becomes possible to see how an eight team league could be put together:

http://www.wakingthered.com/2016/9/14/12912976/could-canadian-teams-toronto-fc-vancouver-whitecaps-montreal-impact-be-pulled-out-of-mls

The ball is very much in Don Garber's court now and I suspect he may call the CSA's bluff on this, because I doubt things would get this public if it was all amicable and smooth sailing behind closed doors on the domestic player issue. Interesting times ahead and at least we can see  that this saga isn't going to drag on forever.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

5 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

Usually when something is Tweeted out, by the time I'm on here it's already been discussed a lot. Seems that's not the case this time, so here it is, fwiw.

 

...so in other words, if they could get the three MLS franchises on board they could use revenue sharing to make it fly in Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Hamilton and Ottawa. They basically want a large slice of the action from 30,000 fans paid at TFC vs Impact. Suspect MLSE and the Saputos may see things differently, and there could be a massive backlash from the season ticket holders of the three MLS teams.

[baulderdash77]

I don't read it like that anywhere.  There's no implication of forcing the MLS teams to the CPL, although an 8 team league in Canada's 8 largest media markets would be pretty good media saturation and coverage.  Good for the CPL but bad for the 3 MLS teams.  You'd probably shave a large amount of TFC/IMFC/VCWC combined $500 million value (according to Forbes)

There's no way the CSA forces the MLS teams to the CPL.  Too much legal challenges. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Agree on the last bit, but suspect there are people out there that actually do want them to and hope that they will. Bet Bob Young wouldn't mind some revenue sharing with TFC, if he is going to dabble in soccer ownership in the years ahead. There will also be a mindset among some that seethes at the above average revenues from the three Canadian cities being pooled with weaker American markets that have next to no Canadian players when they could be propping up a domestic pro league with lots of them. Problem with that is that I don't think the crowds that show up for MLS in the three major media markets would do so in anything like the same numbers for a CPL, although it wouldn't be as precipitous a decline as happened with the Blizzard back in the 1980s on moving from the original NASL to the original CSL. Hopefully MLS do find a way to come up with a reasonable solution to the domestic player issue, and hopefully we do ultimately get a D2 level CPL complete with the MLS reserve teams and a crossborder arrangement with the USL (or NASL, but that's less likely). Will be interesting to see what happens next.

[dyslexic nam]

"May you live in interesting times..."

So, there are a few scenarios, none of which seem ideal.

- If MLS accommodates the 'Canadians as domestics' ask, then CSA loses leverage to move the MLS clubs into the planned CPL (since that kind of sanction is presumably the lever being threatened now).  That leaves the CPL without major portions of the three biggest markets, and probably with a reduced player pool in the short term since many would-be CPL players could be unrestricted MLS journeymen.

- If MLS doesn't accommodate the ask, and CSA tries to force the clubs into CPL, they will face a massive legal challenge and will have alienated the ownership groups that they would have to work with if the forced move was successful.  The kind of franchise fee paid by the clubs (TFC at $40M?) is not pocket change - any action that threatens that investment (and subsequent profits/potential) would be huge. 

- But without the 'big 3', the CPL will likely face major sustainability problems, not just because they are splitting the major markets, but because they will always be a second tier offering in this country.  The CFL is the only game in town for Canadian hand-egg (football), and it has faced huge challenges in the past generating sustained interest because it is a second tier league.

 

Not trying to be a doomsdayer - I just hope that the folks making these threats/bluffs/whatever have a really solid game plan, because there are some bumps in the road ahead.

 

[rob.notenboom]

For folks who have yet to listen to Mont Vic's interview on team1040 from yesterday, it's worth a listen. 

 

[rob.notenboom]

I think it's very unlikely that all 3 major markets will have CanPL teams at launch. I think it's somewhat likely (from what I hear at least), that one or another might. But both these scenarios are significantly more likely than any of the MLS teams moving to CanPL at launch. IMHO that's a complete non-starter ... close to zero probability.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

If Canada has a D1 level pro league then under FIFA's policies the three MLS teams should have no other option but to be part of it. That's the threat that inherently lies within the whole CPL project. Whether it could be made to stick in legal terms is another matter.

[rob.notenboom]

In future btw, I'm going to start all my tweets with 'BOOM'. Clearly that's the way to go. 

[Ansem]

8 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

Probably a bit hyperbolic, but I don't see them surviving long term. Once Ottawa and (probably) Edmonton jump, Ft. Lauderdale and Rayo fold, that's a third of the league gone. If one of the stable franchises (Indy Eleven, etc) lose their nerve and bolt to the USL, I think the house of cards will fold as everyone scrambles to save their investment 

Maybe that's an idea behind single entity (if that is what Totera meant). In single entity, the teams can't leave for another league, maybe it's a built in safety mechanism that is superior to revenue sharing, assuming the league itself survives. 

Edit: that wasn't well thought out. The CSA can already block an attempt to enter a different league, so single entity wouldn't provide extra protection there I suppose 

and who knows, some Canadian Investor can always buy those clubs and move them to CPL cities. It's way easier to have an established structure in place (personnel, scouts etc..) than start from scratch

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

If Canada has a D1 level pro league then under FIFA's policies the three MLS teams should have no other option but to be part of it. That's the threat that inherently lies within the whole CPL project. Whether it could be made to stick in legal terms is another matter.

They can still operate in MLS until CSA revoke that privilege. Will the CSA do so? Hard to say. It will depend on how well the league will do in terms of overall financial health and quality of play. CPL MUST reach a level where getting the big 3 will encounter less resistance from those clubs.

• TV Contract close to CFL (making the argument that with the big 3 they could match it or exceed it, which is better than what MLS is getting right now)
• Competitive league. (This will take time but it's totally realistic to say that our Canadian players could close the gap on American players). As for International and DP, it comes down to how well the club scouts.
• The league would need to grow to a point where the salary cap is around what MLS have as of today. Excluding DPs
• Guaranteeing an extra Champions League spot is a valuable asset. In MLS there are none, so the only way is through the Canadian Championship. Going into CPL means there's a very high probability that 2 of the big 3 would go CCL with all the perks that comes with it.

Just to put things in perspective for those who think CPL will never get this big in Canada. Don't underestimate Canadian's appetite to cheer for their own.

1. MLS: The salary cap will be $3.49 million per team, not counting the extra salary of designated players. Players in the first 20 roster spots will count against the cap. The maximum salary for any one player is $436,250.
2. CFL:The CFL's player salary cap is defined as part of the Salary Management System framework. For the 2016 season, the CFL Maximum Salary Expenditure Cap (SEC) is $5.1 million per team, increasing by $50,000 per year for the next two seasons. 

So to get back to your point, CPL needs to grow and get to an acceptable threshold to facilitate such a move. As I explained in a previous post, TFC would be more complex than Montreal Impact and Vancouver Whitecaps as those teams were founded pre-MLS and decided to join MLS with the CSA blessing while TFC was founded as an MLS franchise. MLS grip on TFC is tighter and could legally challenge TFC jumping to CPL claiming that ultimately, they own the club, an argument that would be much harder to uphold in regards to Montreal and Vancouver. The owners could easily challenge MLS and would most likely win.

The bottom line is that CSA has absolute control over Canada and have the authority to kick MLS out of Canada entirely. That would leave Montreal and Vancouver left with little choice but to join CPL. The legal battle would lie with TFC.

Specifically, TFC owners vs/with. CSA & FIFA vs MLS. The most probable outcome would be financial compensation to MLS to let go of TFC if the owners are adamant at keeping the team AND wanting to join CPL (if certain criteria are met). Considering the owners being MLSE, fighting against joining a strong CPL league would be unbelievably bad for PR.

In the end, it's CSA and CPL burden to elevate the league to a point where it would make sense for the big 3 to join. Until then, no way this is happening against their will.

Also, it's up to MLS to keep the CSA happy. CSA can pull the trigger at anytime and losing the big 3 would be devastating to MLS in terms of overall value, TV contracts and image. It's a scenario they truly can't afford and I hope for their sake, they stop being so nonchalant towards CSA and Canada. If they keep this up, that's exactly what will happen once CPL is ready for those 3 clubs.

Let's not forget that Victor is now a FIFA VIce-President and CONCACAF President. Meaning, he must have talked to Senior FIFA executives, legal department before making such a huge threat. There must be something within FIFA that could potentially give more teeth to the CSA to move the big 3 than we think.

From a business point of view, if you already established that MLS isn't doing anything for the national program, why would you surrender your biggest 3 market to a US sanctioned league for nothing? Why wouldn't you want to get those markets that would take the CPL to the next level that are under your jurisdiction to begin with?

Would you let me operate an Airbnb scheme from the basement that I'm renting from you for next to nothing? Wouldn't you get me evicted?