Canadian Premier League

[Macksam]

8 hours ago, matty said:

I also don't get why people think teams in K-W and London are a good idea. Yes there are people there but you a real risk overdiluting southern Ontario, especially Hamilton.

I don't get why people think this is a bad idea. These cities are close to an hour apart from each other and have the right demographics for soccer. They all have CHL teams and I don't think anybody is thinking junior hockey is "overdiluting" southern Ontario. 

The gutless, CFL-type, Canadian, protectionist ownership mentality needs to stop. It's holding the country back in so many things....let's not make soccer one of them. I remember reading an article on how the former commissioner of the CFL waived off possible expansion into Saskatoon because the city fell in the Riders' "territory". That right there made me sick to my stomach considering the cities are more than 2 and half hours apart FFS. 

Let's not bring that gutless bull shit into the CPL. 

For those not in the know, Dortmund is less than a half an hour drive from where Schalke play.

[Macksam]

5 hours ago, matty said:

Neither removes the issue of being too close to the teams in the GTHA. In a perfect world they'd be considered but sadly it's not likely to happen for them.

They would be considered if an ownership group is willing to invest a team in the aforementioned cities, nothing more. 

[reme90]

I GOT TIRED OF SCROLLING THROUGH 80 PAGES, so I apologize if this has been beaten to death but here is my "MUST HAVE" of which there is only 1 . The CanPL must be authentic. 

1) It must be Authentic Football

Authentic Football has clubs whose identity is framed by its supporters. This means no Corporate Branding like MLS 1.0. The name, colors, crest and supporters group culture must come from the community that the club represents. This means traditional soccer names like (City Name) FC/SC, so get over it. The REAL identity of the club must not be force fed by a marketing campaign but rather developed organically through it's city, history and culture. 

Authentic Football has Promotion and Relegation. Most people can't even imagine a 10 team league much less a 2nd or 3rd division. That's because we have all been brainwashed that to have a club you must be a billionaire, you must live in a huge metropolitan city and you need high priced stars to be competitive. All 3 are simply not true.

Spain solves all 3 myths by having SMALLER REGIONAL LEAGUES for smaller clubs who then earn promotion into 2nd division. This allows teams like EIBAR, who is a club from a town that has a population of just 27,000, yes you read that right, 27K merit their way into LA LIGA's 1st division. Their stadium fits only 5,000 people and yes Barcelona and Real Madrid play in that stadium. How do they compete? They invest heavily in player development and the whole town backs the team. So if Eibar can play in La Liga, most of our cities can support clubs that compete in the CanPL. 

Regional Leagues (West, Central,East) minimize travel costs for small clubs who would then meet for playoffs and championships. The champion wins promotion into CanPL. (Clubs like KW United, WSA or even Youth Clubs like Calgary Foothills, Oakville, etc now have a real incentive to invest AND can offer a legitimate pathway for their players in Pro Soccer). 

Authentic Football is an open market, not a closed Monopoly. This means NO FRANCHISES. The franchise model will be an assured death to the league. Mostly because it will always be a "poor man's" MLS. (Think what the CFL is to the NFL). If we ALL embrace the open market we begin to open our league to the wonderful world of DERBIES. This is the ONE MISSING MAGIC from ALL North American sports. There are only a handful of true rivalries in N.A. sports (Red Sox v Yankees, Canadiens v Leafs). However, most are fabricated, like Columbus v TFC in the Trillium Cup. 

Derbies are great for BOTH teams and creates true loyalty and supporter engagement. Not to mention it saves costs on travel and marketing as tickets sell themselves as real rivalries begin to form. Even out of town teams save costs, by playing both teams when visiting a city with a weekday and weekend game. Derbies also engage Media to care and it invites Corporations to invest.

Authentic Football is a marathon not a lucky streak . In the context of player development, our Canadian boys must understand that each MATCH matters, points matter, each tackle matters, goals matter, losing possession matters, IF the champion is the league winner than the players will KNOW true pressure over the course of the season. That means fighting their way into the 18, into minutes, into the starting lineup, etc. By rewarding the last place team with Draft picks lets say, which you often see in North American sports, teams TANK games at the end when nothing is left to play for. In fact, the more you lose the more you are rewarded in the next year. This is antithetical to sport itself AND it punishes fans. 

In the context of BUSINESS this league structure INVITES winners, whether its private academies with business investors, large YOUTH club partnerships (Do I hear our very first UNITED Football Club?) or even inviting USA clubs to compete in our regional leagues and EARN their way into the Canadian Premier League. The USA market is closed for Division 1 football.  The CanPL would be their only alternative to D1 soccer. What an incentive for the American market ($$$$) to infuse our league with investment and life.

This even invites our MLS clubs to maintain their investment in Major League Soccer, while participating in the CanPL. Their USL clubs could play in the regional leagues and even earn promotion in the Premier League. (Of course the Voyageurs Cup could not be contested by say TFC and TFC2, but some limits on their entry could solve that).   

Here is a list of major Pro sports team owners in Canada. 

1)Vancouver WhiteCaps, 2)Vancouver Canucks, 3)Edmonton Oilers, 4)FC Edmonton, 5) Edmonton Eskimos,  

6)Calgary Flames, 6) Calgary Stampeders, 7)Saskatchewan Roughriders, 8)Winnipeg Bombers, 9)Winnipeg Jets

9)Ottawa Redblacks, 10)Ottawa Senators, 11)Ottawa Fury, 12)Montreal Impact, 13)Montreal Canadiens,14)Montreal Alouttes

15)BC Lions, 16) Hamilton Tigercats 17a) Toronto blue Jays, 18a)TFC, 18b)Leafs, 18c)Argonauts 

That is 18 different owners, I don't see why a Canadian Premier League cant work. This doesn't even include cites like London, Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge-Guelph area, Halifax, and Quebec City.

Here are some SINCERE questions that people smarter than me might know the answer to

Have the NHL owners turned down interest in the CanPL?
Has the CanPL considered allowing MLS USL teams to compete in the CanPL?
Has large Youth Clubs or PDL clubs been taken into account for the long term participation into regional leagues for 2nd division?
Has the USA clubs been considered for entry into the CanPL?

ANyway thanks for reading. 
 

 

 

[Coramoor]

1 hour ago, reme90 said:

I GOT TIRED OF SCROLLING THROUGH 80 PAGES, so I apologize if this has been beaten to death but here is my "MUST HAVE" of which there is only 1 . The CanPL must be authentic. 

1) It must be Authentic Football

Authentic Football has clubs whose identity is framed by its supporters. 

Authentic Football has Promotion and Relegation.  

Authentic Football is an open market, not a closed Monopoly. 

Authentic Football is a marathon not a lucky streak .

In the context of BUSINESS this league structure INVITES winners, whether its private academies with business investors, large YOUTH club partnerships (Do I hear our very first UNITED Football Club?) or even inviting USA clubs to first compete in our regional leagues and EARN their way into the Canadian Premier League. The USA market is closed for Division 1 football.  The CanPL would be their only alternative to D1 soccer. What an incentive for the American market ($$$$) to infuse our league with investment and life.

This even invites our MLS clubs to maintain their investment in Major League Soccer, while participating in the CanPL. Their USL clubs could play in the regional leagues and even earn promotion in the Premier League. (Of course the Voyageurs Cup could not be contested by say TFC and TFC2, but some limits on their entry could solve that).   

Here is a list of major Pro sports team owners in Canada. 

 

That is 18 different owners, I don't see why a Canadian Premier League cant work. This doesn't even include cites like London, Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge-Guelph area, Halifax, and Quebec City.

Here are some SINCERE questions that people smarter than me might know the answer

Have the NHL owners turned down interest in the CanPL?
Has the CanPL considered allowing MLS USL teams to compete in the CanPL?
Has large Youth Clubs or PDL clubs been taken into account for the long term participation into regional leagues for 2nd division?
Has the USA clubs been considered for entry into the CanPL?

ANyway thanks for reading. 
 

 

 

I'm just going to go through this point by point 

Authentic Football has clubs whose identity is framed by its supporters. 

Calling a team, Hamilton Steelers and making them yellow and black would have a lot to do with the history and culture of Hamilton. This no nicknames in the name thing is beyond moronic, it makes no difference. 

Authentic Football has Promotion and Relegation.  

No, it's not viable, it's not what the market is used to and while I'm sure we all love the idea in spirit, in reality it's a messy thing we(as a soccer fanbase) can't afford. Pro/Rel was a solution to a problem that no longer exists in the world and it causes far more problems than it does benefits. This league needs to survive first and foremost and pro/rel would kill it before it even seriously began.

Authentic Football is an open market, not a closed Monopoly.

Given that this whole section is about derbies, aside from one sentence about Franchises, I'll respond mostly to that. It'll be based on the CFL, it'll be franchises, that's how things are done here and they aren't going to risk the looseness of an open market, they want the power to act as a collective, smoothly at a national level.

As for derbies, well we have a ton of them in Canada, Toronto Hamilton(CFL), Toronto Montreal(NHL MLS and hopefully MLB one day), Toronto Ottawa(NHL), Montreal Quebec City(NHL of old, hopefully one day soon, I have more faith in a QC expansion then most however), Edmonton Calgary(CFL, NHL). Saying derbies are why corporations invest is a bit weird, it may contribute to potential ROI, therefore it's helpful, but it's a bit tangential.

Authentic Football is a marathon not a lucky streak

This is constant unfounded bullshit. There is zero evidence that a League system(same with pro/rel) is helpful in making better players compared to a playoff system. Plus the draft picks aren't going to be top tier except for maybe one or two players in soccer anyway. It's not going to be like the 76ers.

American Clubs

How does this add anything, even if the USSF allowed them, which it wouldn't. All it would do is dilute the process and create a whole series of problems as we'd have to deal with two legal systems, two different markets. It's in no way worth it.

Voyageurs Cup

I don't have the same objection that most people do to reserve teams competing, so what. Make it so they can't conceivably play each other until the very late rounds.

Here is a list of major Pro sports team owners in Canada. 

Your list is off a bit. 

The Flames and Stampeders are owned by the same group. The RedBlacks and Fury are owned by the same group. The Leafs and TFC are owned by the same group, as are the Raptors but you didn't list them. The Blue Jays are owned by part of the previous ownership group while the Argos are owned by the rest of the ownership group not including the Blue Jays owner.

 

Have the NHL owners turned down interest in the CanPL?

Rumours have the Calgary group involved at the very least

Has the CanPL considered allowing MLS USL teams to compete in the CanPL?

Probably but a lot of fans on here are opposed to it, so I'd say it's unlikely that it happens

Has large Youth Clubs or PDL clubs been taken into account for the long term participation into regional leagues for 2nd division?

The CSA has been slowly removing or barring a lot of the clubs that participate in US leagues from continuing. Leagues like L1O and the PQSL exist now as regional leagues.

Has the USA clubs been considered for entry into the CanPL?

Never going to happen

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

On 2016/09/08 at 9:44 PM, baulderdash77 said:

i heard very recently from some reliable sources that it's still under discussion and not to expect an announcement imminently.

This surprises me because that was less than a week ago

Strange how people seemed to completely ignore this post given the sources would almost certainly have been Ticats front office people.

[reme90]

1 hour ago, Coramoor said:

I'm just going to go through this point by point 

Authentic Football has clubs whose identity is framed by its supporters. 

Calling a team, Hamilton Steelers and making them yellow and black would have a lot to do with the history and culture of Hamilton. This no nicknames in the name thing is beyond moronic, it makes no difference. 

Authentic Football has Promotion and Relegation.  

No, it's not viable, it's not what the market is used to and while I'm sure we all love the idea in spirit, in reality it's a messy thing we(as a soccer fanbase) can't afford. Pro/Rel was a solution to a problem that no longer exists in the world and it causes far more problems than it does benefits. This league needs to survive first and foremost and pro/rel would kill it before it even seriously began.

Authentic Football is an open market, not a closed Monopoly.

Given that this whole section is about derbies, aside from one sentence about Franchises, I'll respond mostly to that. It'll be based on the CFL, it'll be franchises, that's how things are done here and they aren't going to risk the looseness of an open market, they want the power to act as a collective, smoothly at a national level.

As for derbies, well we have a ton of them in Canada, Toronto Hamilton(CFL), Toronto Montreal(NHL MLS and hopefully MLB one day), Toronto Ottawa(NHL), Montreal Quebec City(NHL of old, hopefully one day soon, I have more faith in a QC expansion then most however), Edmonton Calgary(CFL, NHL). Saying derbies are why corporations invest is a bit weird, it may contribute to potential ROI, therefore it's helpful, but it's a bit tangential.

Authentic Football is a marathon not a lucky streak

This is constant unfounded bullshit. There is zero evidence that a League system(same with pro/rel) is helpful in making better players compared to a playoff system. Plus the draft picks aren't going to be top tier except for maybe one or two players in soccer anyway. It's not going to be like the 76ers.

American Clubs

How does this add anything, even if the USSF allowed them, which it wouldn't. All it would do is dilute the process and create a whole series of problems as we'd have to deal with two legal systems, two different markets. It's in no way worth it.

Voyageurs Cup

I don't have the same objection that most people do to reserve teams competing, so what. Make it so they can't conceivably play each other until the very late rounds.

Here is a list of major Pro sports team owners in Canada. 

Your list is off a bit. 

The Flames and Stampeders are owned by the same group. The RedBlacks and Fury are owned by the same group. The Leafs and TFC are owned by the same group, as are the Raptors but you didn't list them. The Blue Jays are owned by part of the previous ownership group while the Argos are owned by the rest of the ownership group not including the Blue Jays owner.

 

Have the NHL owners turned down interest in the CanPL?

Rumours have the Calgary group involved at the very least

Has the CanPL considered allowing MLS USL teams to compete in the CanPL?

Probably but a lot of fans on here are opposed to it, so I'd say it's unlikely that it happens

Has large Youth Clubs or PDL clubs been taken into account for the long term participation into regional leagues for 2nd division?

The CSA has been slowly removing or barring a lot of the clubs that participate in US leagues from continuing. Leagues like L1O and the PQSL exist now as regional leagues.

Has the USA clubs been considered for entry into the CanPL?

Never going to happen

I'm just going to go through this point by point 

Calling a team, Hamilton Steelers and making them yellow and black would have a lot to do with the history and culture of Hamilton.

I agree, this organic and part of the culture of Hamilton. Calling a team Saskatoon Steel with yellow and black because it rhymes is stupid. This is what I meant.  

No, it's not viable, it's not what the market is used to and while .. we(as a soccer fanbase) can't afford.

It's this type of thinking that had MLS 1.0 not taken seriously and at bankruptcy for the first 10 years. Anyone remember Wizards, Clash,  Neon Jerseys, Timeclock, Running Shootouts, No Ties, Football lines, cheerleaders??? All those ideas were to make it viable.  It was only until they got RID of what the American Market is USED TO that things got better. Including TFC game changing supporter culture. Also, koodos to TFC for not naming them something stupid like Raptors. 

This league needs to survive first and foremost and pro/rel would kill it before it even seriously began.

There is ways to protect the initial investors and provide a stability to the league WHILE building in a framework for PRO/REL for the future.  

As a quick example: No Relegation for 10-15 years or until Premier League has 20 clubs, whichever comes first. 
                                 Financial viability of Promoted Clubs, etc

We don't need to create, market and develop 1-3 leagues all at once. What I am saying is that the CPL teams understand that ANY club in the country has a right to compete by Merit.  

I'll respond mostly to that. It'll be based on the CFL, it'll be franchises, that's how things are done here

The only reason CFL owners are looking to create another SUMMER league that competes directly for audience and dollars is because their Franchise model and "how they do things" cannot compete with the NFL. The CPL will also not be able to compete with MLS. It will die a painful and certain death, like the CFL is experiencing. 

and they aren't going to risk the looseness of an open market, they want the power to act as a collective, smoothly at a national level.

Again, there are ways to protect investors such as salary caps, revenue sharing, etc. The open market does not mean not working collectively but rather leaving the door open to other investors who want to share the load.

 

As for derbies, well we have a ton of them in Canada, Toronto Hamilton(CFL), Toronto Montreal(NHL MLS and hopefully MLB one day), These aren't Derbies, derbies are teams from the same city. We really have not experienced this in North America. 

There is zero evidence that a League system(same with pro/rel) is helpful in making better players compared to a playoff system. 

From AFTN article: "when I asked him what the national team needed to do now to take that next step up the ladder in international football and qualify for the Hex once again.

“It’s not a difficult question, but a question that needs a lot of time to explain,” Floro said. “There are two important matters. One of them is that there is not a league...

“The other is that if we don’t have a good league, first division, second division, third division, it means that players don’t have the habit to make a strong pressing. To do things like immediately recover the possession of the ball. This is a level of competitiveness. "

Floro is bang on. League system and Pro/Rel does create a meaningful match for every game. In fact every, professional manager, player would vouch the same, but heck what do they know, we do things our way.

How does this add anything, even if the USSF allowed them, which it wouldn't. All it would do is dilute the process and create a whole series of problems as we'd have to deal with two legal systems, two different markets. It's in no way worth it.

I agree USSF and MLS, which are one and the same would fight it. However, it would be hypocritical of them to say CDN clubs playing in USA leagues are D1, but USA clubs playing in a CDN league are not. Besides, it really would not be their call as FIFA already RULED and made a special exemption for USA/CANADA as the sports market for both countries has a long history of teams in cross-country leagues. Technically, a league cannot have teams from different countries, except for USA/Canada and UK because of the history of those countries. 

Adding USA clubs adds more TV revenue, more Sponsorship dollars, more audience, more talent pool, more rivalries. I mean the benefits are all there. 

NHL, MLB, NBA, MLS, USL, NASL, maybe even NFL one day, seem to do just fine dealing with all the lawyery stuff. 

I don't have the same objection that most people do to reserve teams competing, so what. Make it so they can't conceivably play each other until the very late rounds. 

The only real objection would be from the Clubs, like TFC would lose credibility by losing to TFC2. In Spain, BARCA B does not compete in the Copa del Rey, which we could rule the same here. Also, as a sidenote they are never promoted higher than 3rd division which in our case would not matter, as MLS and CanPL can both function outside of each other in their respective D1. 

Your list is off a bit. 

The Flames and Stampeders are owned by the same group. The RedBlacks and Fury are owned by the same group.

Thanks, didn't know. 

The Leafs and TFC are owned by the same group, as are the Raptors but you didn't list them. The Blue Jays are owned by part of the previous ownership group while the Argos are owned by the rest of the ownership group not including the Blue Jays owner.

Thats why I had them as 18A,B,C as I knew they had the same owners. Rogers owns the Blue Jays and a part of TFC. 

Rumours have the Calgary group involved at the very least

I'm really surprised NHL owners don't want an additional revenue source through the summer. It really wouldn't compete with the NHL dollars. 

Probably but a lot of fans on here are opposed to it, so I'd say it's unlikely that it happens

I don't see how players like Marcos Bustos getting competitive minutes in a D1 league where he can become a Nationally recognized player is a bad thing for the Whitecaps, Fans, or CANPL.  

[Coramoor]

7 minutes ago, reme90 said:

I'm just going to go through this point by point 

 

Calling a team, Hamilton Steelers and making them yellow and black would have a lot to do with the history and culture of Hamilton.

 

I agree, this organic and part of the culture of Hamilton. Calling a team Saskatoon Steel with yellow and black because it rhymes is stupid. This is what I meant.  

 

No, it's not viable, it's not what the market is used to and while .. we(as a soccer fanbase) can't afford.

 

It's this type of thinking that had MLS 1.0 not taken seriously and at bankruptcy for the first 10 years. Anyone remember Wizards, Clash,  Neon Jerseys, Timeclock, Running Shootouts, No Ties, Football lines, cheerleaders??? All those ideas were to make it viable.  It was only until they got RID of what the American Market is USED TO that things got better. Including TFC game changing supporter culture. Also, koodos to TFC for not naming them something stupid like Raptors. 

 

This league needs to survive first and foremost and pro/rel would kill it before it even seriously began.

 

There is ways to protect the initial investors and provide a stability to the league WHILE building in a framework for PRO/REL for the future.  

As a quick example: No Relegation for 10-15 years or until Premier League has 20 clubs, whichever comes first. 
                                 Financial viability of Promoted Clubs, etc

 

We don't need to create, market and develop 1-3 leagues all at once. What I am saying is that the CPL teams understand that ANY club in the country has a right to compete by Merit.  

 

I'll respond mostly to that. It'll be based on the CFL, it'll be franchises, that's how things are done here

 

The only reason CFL owners are looking to create another SUMMER league that competes directly for audience and dollars is because their Franchise model and "how they do things" cannot compete with the NFL. The CPL will also not be able to compete with MLS. It will die a painful and certain death, like the CFL is experiencing. 

 

and they aren't going to risk the looseness of an open market, they want the power to act as a collective, smoothly at a national level.

 

Again, there are ways to protect investors such as salary caps, revenue sharing, etc. The open market does not mean not working collectively but rather leaving the door open to other investors who want to share the load.

It's this type of thinking that had MLS 1.0 not taken seriously and at bankruptcy for the first 10 years. Anyone remember Wizards, Clash,  Neon Jerseys, Timeclock, Running Shootouts, No Ties, Football lines, cheerleaders??? All those ideas were to make it viable.  It was only until they got RID of what the American Market is USED TO that things got better. Including TFC game changing supporter culture. Also, koodos to TFC for not naming them something stupid like Raptors. 

changing the rules of the game is a bit different than not having pro/rel. MLS still doesn't have pro/rel and it's growing nicely

The only reason CFL owners are looking to create another SUMMER league that competes directly for audience and dollars is because their Franchise model and "how they do things" cannot compete with the NFL. The CPL will also not be able to compete with MLS. It will die a painful and certain death, like the CFL is experiencing. 

We can't compete with the NFL because we're 1/10th the size, not because of how we do things. Also the reason the CFL owners are looking to support a CPL is because it gives their stadiums more dates, cross marketing opportunities and more bang for the buck from their sales staff.

Again, there are ways to protect investors such as salary caps, revenue sharing, etc. The open market does not mean not working collectively but rather leaving the door open to other investors who want to share the load.

A franchise system also leaves the door open, just less so than what you're thinking

[baulderdash77]

2 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Strange how people seemed to completely ignore this post given the sources would almost certainly have been Ticats front office people.

I'm not going to completely give it away; but I heard that they're working on it and expect it to happen, but not imminently. There's a bunch of issues to work through.  

Its not just get 6 owners and a business plan and go.  You have to get sanctioning, leases to fields (which if you've ever taken a lease on real estate you know can take 3+ months), line up sponsors, hire the bones of a front office, probably certify a union and get a prelim CBA.

After the business plan is approved and ownership groups are signed on and prelim sactioning happens, it's at least 4-6  months to get these details locked down, and your not going to make a franchise announcement without those details.

Starting a league is really hard.  

Then about 3 or 4 days later the tweet happened and I have to say I was pretty surprised.

[Ansem]

Also let's not forget to make this very important distinction 

CFL can't compete with NFL because they already have fans throughout Canada watching NFL already and indeed view CFL as 2nd rate football.

As for the MLS, it is my honest opinion that outside of the big 3 markets and Metro surrounding, no one cares that much about MLS as TV ratings tends to prove. Canadians cares way more more about EPL than MLS.

Canada is an untapped market for soccer. That's why I believe that communities like London, Kitchener-Waterloo would work even if they are about 1 or 2 hours from each other. 

We have to stop having this Canada-US mentality. If you want a CPL to work, you need to be present in your biggest markets within Canada. You can't take a pass in places like K-W who almost have the total population of BOTH Regina and Saskatoon, same for London.

Also, how sure are we that people would drive from London 2 hours to see a 90 minutes game in Hamilton? It's way more likely they would support their own city club instead. Look at how London are proud of their London Knights, I doubt you wouldn't have the same passion for soccer. Same for Kitchener who also have a CHL club...Guelph next door does too.

Like I said, soccer is an untapped market in Canada, and the CSA is right to avoid the big 3. Also most of the cities we're talking about have NO OTHER SPORT COMPETITION.

 

[baulderdash77]

Hey Coramoor and Reme90- can you guys stop quoting each other's super long  posts and going through it again parsing out every detail?  It's impossible to read and follow.

I'll chime in on the points though:

-Forget about Pro/Rel.. The original owners are all pretty much investing millions and expecting to lose millions the first few years.  They just won't create a league they could get relegated from.  It will not happen.  Period full stop. 

-This will be a closed league.  But I'm sure if some investor wants to join and has a stadium, market and millions that they want to invest they too can join.

-It's going to function as a North America style league.  We're in North America, most of the prospective owners own other North American teams and that's how sports leagues work here.  So think CFL in structure.

 

[baulderdash77]

Ansem- just remember the triangle of Ownership, Market, Stadium.  

The breakeven point for a team will almost certainly be in the 7,500-10,000 attendance area.  You have to have a stadium that meets this and that also has broadcasting space, concessions and other sources of stadium revenue.

You need an owner with a net worth of probably at least 50-75 Million to sustain initial losses and make the required investments.

The market has to be big enough to attract corporate investment and sustain attendance.  We're taking hundreds of thousands, if not a million dollars in advertising investment per team per year.  There's not many markets with that corporate community.    

[baulderdash77]

Good point on markets though- Initally the only makets that could launch within 5 years are the CFL cities plus some of the larger CIS stadiums.  The larger CIS stadiums may be ideal in some cases because they have no users in the spring and summer.  There's been no rumor out there for them but it may work.

7,500 seat+ CIS stadiums are in Quebec, Moncton, Toronto, Montreal, Kingston, Sherbrooke, London and Guelph.

There may be some markets there down the road outside the CFL stadiums.

 

[Ansem]

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/demo05a-eng.htm

For the 2015 population in Metro areas

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Baulderdash77's 7,500 to 10,000 break even is realistic for the rumoured budgets and that severely limits the number of viable markets when soccer is involved, so forget Victoria, Regina, Windsor, London, Kitchener, Moncton or Halifax and even Quebec city looks like a stretch if there have been no rumours revolving around the larger CIS stadiums. The interesting snippet was "6 owners", because it suggests the way around having all of the three MLS markets is to avoid at least two of them. I can believe Calgary, Winnipeg, Hamilton and Ottawa (assuming USL isn't on the cards there, which is a very big assumption given recent tweets) have been potentially interested, but what would the other two be? Edmonton doesn't work at Clarke Stadium on those numbers even if the Faths were interested and there has never been a rumour about the Eskimos, so that's a huge question mark. Looks like they still need at least one of the MLS markets on board and I suspect that would be Toronto in the first instance, but MLSE have management control over BMO Field and Lamport, so where would they play their games? Even with an original six sort of format rather than eight, it's difficult to see how this gets put together.

[MtlMario]

20 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

How interested do you think CFL teams were in investing in Canadian soccer before TFC showed it was possible to draw big crowds and make money on pro soccer in Canada? It's always fundamentally about money and it is naive to think otherwise. 

So now you are saying that MLS is only here for the money and not worried about CDN. player development. That's what we're all been saying.

[mpg_29]

Biggest problem with a supposed CPL is going to be trying to force a "CFL like" model when we don't have the big 3 cities AND the average attendance will be much lower.

Which is why I'd much rather see a "Division 3" like pro league focused around more medium sized cities like the CHL.  So be it if most of the teams are located in Ontario and Quebec

 

[baulderdash77]

Just now, mpg_29 said:

Biggest problem with a supposed CPL is going to be trying to force a "CFL like" model when we don't have the big 3 cities AND the average attendance will be much lower.

Which is why I'd much rather see a "Division 3" like pro league focused around more medium sized cities like the CHL.  So be it if most of the teams are located in Ontario and Quebec

We have that L1O and PQSL.  They're new but growing quickly.  Lots of U23 talent developing there and it's getting better every year as the roots of the academy start going younger and younger.

But this whole thread is about the CPL- D1/D2 professional soccer.

[baulderdash77]

^^BBTB is right about market sizes and league size.  Even if *big if* Ottawa and Edmonton move to CPL, I have a hard time coming up with more than Calgary, Winnipeg and Hamilton who could start up in 2018.  That's a 5 team league.

They need a 6th team in a major media market to get a TV deal and to get a good schedule.  As an original 6 we need media markets as much as anything to be considered a legitimate market for media coverage.

Of the 3 media markets the only one I think is a possibility is maybe a 2nd team in Toronto at York if they found investors.  It's a new stadium in a good location that isn't downtown competing with TFC.  Toronto is big enough for 2 professional teams and Montreal may be big enough too.

 

[Macksam]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Baulderdash77's 7,500 to 10,000 break even is realistic for the rumoured budgets and that severely limits the number of viable markets when soccer is involved, so forget Victoria, Regina, Windsor, London, Kitchener, Moncton or Halifax and even Quebec city looks like a stretch if there have been no rumours revolving around the larger CIS stadiums.

Forget in what sense? Forget because there's been no rumours revolving using CIS stadiums? If that's the case, why are you putting a lot of stock into rumours now? Maybe not all but some of those cities are definitely viable if the product is done right. 

Granted, these cities would probably come in during the second phase of expansion, when the league stabilizes.

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

^^BBTB is right about market sizes and league size.  Even if *big if* Ottawa and Edmonton move to CPL, I have a hard time coming up with more than Calgary, Winnipeg and Hamilton who could start up in 2018.  That's a 5 team league.

They need a 6th team in a major media market to get a TV deal and to get a good schedule.  As an original 6 we need media markets as much as anything to be considered a legitimate market for media coverage.

Of the 3 media markets the only one I think is a possibility is maybe a 2nd team in Toronto at York if they found investors.  It's a new stadium in a good location that isn't downtown competing with TFC.  Toronto is big enough for 2 professional teams and Montreal may be big enough too.

 

York University or Downsview park is actually a good idea. Both locations will have their own subway stations in 2017...Downsview Park station and York University Station.

Easy access does help and for the case of York, people are willing to go for Tennis after all. Imagine the subway reaching the stadium

As for Montreal, I'm originally from there. It's a bad idea. CFL and MLS have pretty much got most of the sport market and MLB will come back at some point. Best to stick to Quebec City and Sherbrooke.

Can someone give their take on the Vancouver market?

[Shway]

23 minutes ago, Ansem said:

York University or Downsview park is actually a good idea. Both locations will have their own subway stations in 2017...Downsview Park station and York University Station.

Easy access does help and for the case of York, people are willing to go for Tennis after all. Imagine the subway reaching the stadium

York - Hell no! wayyy to far out to even touch the eastern ontario fan base.

Downsview - ummmm, ideally yes....but TFC seems like they have a foothold on that location, so how and where would it work.

Lamport Stadium - is my ideal choice, barring a lot of  renovations (which could be possible with the new NRL team). GTAians? have no problem getting downtown, whether its driving, or public transportation there are multiple options and the time and distance is the same whether you're coming from Ajax, Oakville, Markham, or Vaughn. So you wouldn't alienate a possible set of fans like TFCII does with that team in Vaughn.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 hour ago, baulderdash77 said:

Of the 3 media markets the only one I think is a possibility is maybe a 2nd team in Toronto at York if they found investors...

Guess that might be a viable option, depending on what sort of deal York University would provide, but it's still a less than ideal one. How would the hardcore soccer fans in Toronto that have grown used to BMO Field tend to react to having a running track between the field and the stand? Not well would be my guess. Given it would be high risk for any investor buying the franchise rights for Toronto given the budgets that would be involved, maybe a league owned franchise approach would be the way to get things rolling in a similar way to how the Argos need to be propped up financially as a charity case either by one of the other owners or the owner of the league's main broadcaster for the greater good of the CFL?

All of this looks a bit like Eugene Melnyk deciding to buy an MLS expansion team for Ottawa after driving past BMO Field and being shocked by what he saw and then wanting a piece of the action once he learned what it was all about. It's great to see soccer being seen as the next big thing, but you wonder whether these guys really grasp what TFC were able to tap into back in 2007. The sports media talked up the young crowd looking for a party angle and some people seem to genuinely belive that was the main ingredient and were expecting all the Argos had to do was roll up for the same to happen for them, but really it was a recent immigrant demographic (born overseas or parents from overseas) that already loved the sport and had allegiances overseas, but wanted the game day experience rather than just watching games on television or in bars, that was the key and that isn't anything like as easy to replicate in Ottawa or Winnipeg.

 

[Rheo]

And as I say Windsor doesn't have a stadium the same day it comes out that the college is looking to build a "domed stadium" specifically mentioning soocer

http://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/st-clair-college-contemplates-major-sports-park

Based on the artwork though looks to be about the same size as the university stadium, about 2000 I'd guess.  just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Complete Homer]

35 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Guess that might be a viable option, depending on what sort of deal York University would provide, but it's still a less than ideal one. How would the hardcore soccer fans in Toronto that have grown used to BMO Field tend to react to having a running track between the field and the stand? Not well would be my guess. Given it would be high risk for any investor buying the franchise rights for Toronto given the budgets that would be involved, maybe a league owned franchise approach would be the way to get things rolling in a similar way to how the Argos need to be propped up financially as a charity case either by one of the other owners or the owner of the league's main broadcaster for the greater good of the CFL?

All of this looks a bit like Eugene Melnyk deciding to buy an MLS expansion team for Ottawa after driving past BMO Field and being shocked by what he saw and then wanting a piece of the action once he learned what it was all about. It's great to see soccer being seen as the next big thing, but you wonder whether these guys really grasp what TFC were able to tap into back in 2007. The sports media talked up the young crowd looking for a party angle and some people seem to genuinely belive that was the main ingredient and were expecting all the Argos had to do was roll up for the same to happen for them, but really it was a recent immigrant demographic (born overseas or parents from overseas) that already loved the sport and had allegiances overseas, but wanted the game day experience rather than just watching games on television or in bars, that was the key and that isn't anything like as easy to replicate in Ottawa or Winnipeg.

 

It's not just recent immigrant communities interested, it's the 25 and under crowd that grew up watching TFC as the new and shiny sport.

I grew up in small town Ontario, and everyone played hockey and soccer exclusively. When TFC kicked off when I was a highschooler, it was a huge deal, and everyone became instant fans. It was a sport that we understood and could appreciate tactically like we enjoyed hockey, instead of a simple spectacle like basketball/baseball/football. That demographic, the one who fell for north american soccer as kids, is just now coming into money and starting to become relevant in the market, and could be a big boon for any Ontario team.

It's obviously not reproducible everywhere, I'm not sure how many people in rural Saskatchewan would have had a similar story, but it irks me when it is assumed that recent immigrants are the only people who can drive attendance at soccer games. If that was true, Chivas USA would have driven LA Galaxy out of business instead of the other way around

[reme90]

5 hours ago, Ansem said:

CFL can't compete with NFL because they already have fans throughout Canada watching NFL ... CFL as 2nd rate football.  As for the MLS, ... no one cares that much about MLS as TV ratings tends to prove. Canadians cares way more more about EPL than MLS.

 

No one cares about MLS because it's Americanized and NOT Authentic. The vast majority of USA/Canada ignore MLS as they are educated about the game. They KNOW and WANT the real thing. Which is why the TV is flooded with European and South American soccer. 

Soccer is still untapped in the USA because clubs DON'T exist in D1 and real Clubs are not allowed into D1. 

Which is why the franchise model is doomed to fail. 

5 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

-Forget about Pro/Rel.. The original owners are all pretty much investing millions and expecting to lose millions the first few years.  They just won't create a league they could get relegated from.  It will not happen.  Period full stop. 

-This will be a closed league.  But I'm sure if some investor wants to join and has a stadium, market and millions that they want to invest they too can join.

-It's going to function as a North America style league.  We're in North America, most of the prospective owners own other North American teams and that's how sports leagues work here.  So think CFL in structure.

 

I respectfully disagree and I believe education on the issue is needed. You are wrong on all 3 points (1) Initial Investors will risk millions if relegated, 2) You need Millions, Large Market & Stadium to buy in  3) CFL is the structure we know. 

1) You can make rules to protect the initial investors and their $$$ while having an open structure. For example: No relegation for 15 years or until 20 clubs, whichever is first. If owners expect to lose millions in the first years, giving them 15 years to get it right protects their investment. NO ONE expects relegation to be possible for YEARS, you just need the framework from the getgo. 

2) EIBAR and literally thousands of clubs like it in the world prove this is simply not true. A small Market, with small budget in a small stadium can be profitable, successful and competitive. 

3) The CFL structure fails because it IS 2nd rate to the NFL. If we structure the CPL EXACTLY like MLS it too will die a painful and premature death. 

PRO/REL ensures the viability of the league which ensures profitability for the owner. 
 

5 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

The breakeven point for a team will almost certainly be in the 7,500-10,000 attendance area.  

You need an owner with a net worth of probably at least 50-75 Million to sustain initial losses and make the required investments.

The market has to be big enough to attract corporate investment and sustain attendance.  We're taking hundreds of thousands, if not a million dollars in advertising investment per team per year.  There's not many markets with that corporate community.    

IF 5k to 10k is the breakeven point than literally every city can have a club. WHICH WOULD BE AWESOME. 

Salary caps, revenue sharing can shield investors from MILLIONS in losses. The League needs to be VIABLE and have full community engagement, only clubs do that, NOT FRANCHISES. The more clubs the better the corporate sponsorship.

 

3 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

Biggest problem with a supposed CPL is going to be trying to force a "CFL like" model when we don't have the big 3 cities AND the average attendance will be much lower.

BANG ON. Why force a dying model. Give us the real thing and it will thrive. 

Why are the 3 MLS markets out of the question? This is ludicrious