Canadian Premier League

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I'm not pretending anything. If CPL was just around the corner Montagliani would have said by 2018 as per usual rather than within five years. It's that change of tack that makes me wonder. Worth noting this bit in the article as well:

“There is some movement with MLS where a Canadian player has an opportunity other than just with three teams,” he says. “It is an opportunity where players who come through the system are going to be considered domestics on both side of the ledger. With a pro league, a lot of the challenges can always be overcome by money.”  

 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

[Macksam]

6 hours ago, zen said:

They would be successful legally. The CPL will never be equal to MLS, so the loss of potential revenue would be a huge point of contention for those teams.

I wouldn't say never. MLS needs a massive TV contract to take things to the next level and by the looks of it, that's not coming any time soon considering the ratings are dreadful and have stagnated. I can see the CPL gaining traction on Canadian TV a lot quicker than MLS on American TV. I'm not saying it will happen but it's an angle worth considering. Let's also take into consideration there are so many owners keeping the quality of MLS down. You have the TV angle along with the fact more of our top athletes will choose the sport compared to the US and a trickle down effect of professional clubs positively effecting youth development, I could see the CPL theoretically becoming of better quality than the MLS. 

When it comes to enticing the three MLS teams, that would be difficult. However, similarly to how the EPL started, if a major network like TSN presented to them the possible TV money to be made from such a move, it could happen to.

[BrennanFan]

4 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

There is absolutely zero chance the MLS teams leave. Their entire structure is tied to MLS, it would be a collosal legal battle that is in no one's favour. I cannot see the judicial system looking favourably on the CSA attempting to use FIFA's mostly made up powers to do huge damage to the value of those 3 franchises. The closest I could see happening is longstanding desanctioning leading league ownership to ask the Canadian clubs to sell their stakes, and the owners turning around and launching CPL teams, but that is the most extreme fantasy possible. 

Desanctioning is still a collosal card to play, and while I think it's a bluff, it could do enough damage to the franchise owners and the league that MLS might be forced to act. Given that Bez echoed Vic's words, the franchises might be on board with pressuring the league to make Canadians (or, say, products of Canadian academies to skirt American law). 

There may be no legal battle in the court system, as this is a FIFA governed issue, the dispute would have to go through the FIFA tribunals.  Just like when there is a player contract dispute.  Players are not allowed to sue in the courts, they have to go through FIFA channels of dispute resolution.  

[rob.notenboom]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I'm not pretending anything. If CPL was just around the corner Montagliani would have said by 2018 as per usual rather than within five years. It's that change of tack that makes me wonder. Worth noting this bit in the article as well:

“There is some movement with MLS where a Canadian player has an opportunity other than just with three teams,” he says. “It is an opportunity where players who come through the system are going to be considered domestics on both side of the ledger. With a pro league, a lot of the challenges can always be overcome by money.”  

 

I don't recall Mont Vic ever saying 2018, only others. Has he somewhere?

[rob.notenboom]

11 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

There may be no legal battle in the court system, as this is a FIFA governed issue, the dispute would have to go through the FIFA tribunals.  Just like when there is a player contract dispute.  Players are not allowed to sue in the courts, they have to go through FIFA channels of dispute resolution.  

You know I was thinking this exact thing. Additionally if FIFA removed the approval of the cross-border league, desanctioning the three MLS teams would be a formality. 

However, I'm with others who are saying it's tough to see the three MLS teams leaving the league. It would be great (for CanPL) if we suddenly had 3 teams in the 3 biggest markets, but I have trouble envisioning it. 

[Complete Homer]

11 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

There may be no legal battle in the court system, as this is a FIFA governed issue, the dispute would have to go through the FIFA tribunals.  Just like when there is a player contract dispute.  Players are not allowed to sue in the courts, they have to go through FIFA channels of dispute resolution.  

I don't think FIFA's quasi legal system would hold much weight when MLSE and Co would bring the CSA in front of a real courtroom. FIFA's regulatory system isn't really above the law in North America like it is in some places around the world

[BrennanFan]

1 minute ago, Complete Homer said:

I don't think FIFA's quasi legal system would hold much weight when MLSE and Co would bring the CSA in front of a real courtroom. FIFA's regulatory system isn't really above the law in North America like it is in some places around the world

Yea they could bring the lawsuits, but then the owners, the teams in question and probably the MLS would get banned by FIFA.  

Its association football.  If you want to be associated with the international community, you gotta play by the rules.

[Ansem]

10 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I don't think FIFA's quasi legal system would hold much weight when MLSE and Co would bring the CSA in front of a real courtroom. FIFA's regulatory system isn't really above the law in North America like it is in some places around the world

Tell that to the NHL who used their BS rules to block Balsillie from moving Phoenix to Hamilton after legally intending to buy the club.

NHL blocked it and used their NHL rule to make their case in court.

Same thing would happen here. FIFA is bigger than MLS here. 

That's why I maintain that the endgame of the CSA is to get the big 3 in CPL when the league is ready for it.

TV ratings and contracts for MLS are a joke in the US and I could see Canadian TV contract be on par if done right ( that's how bad their TV contract is). 

In term of quality of play, again, strip most MLS teams of their international players and DPs and it becomes quickly a 3rd division quality like match.

It comes down to scouting. If we can scout better than those MLS teams, we can find quality DP and international players with similar talent at lower cost like Piatti in Montreal...pure scouting.

[zen]

2 hours ago, Macksam said:

I wouldn't say never. MLS needs a massive TV contract to take things to the next level and by the looks of it, that's not coming any time soon considering the ratings are dreadful and have stagnated. I can see the CPL gaining traction on Canadian TV a lot quicker than MLS on American TV. I'm not saying it will happen but it's an angle worth considering. Let's also take into consideration there are so many owners keeping the quality of MLS down. You have the TV angle along with the fact more of our top athletes will choose the sport compared to the US and a trickle down effect of professional clubs positively effecting youth development, I could see the CPL theoretically becoming of better quality than the MLS. 

When it comes to enticing the three MLS teams, that would be difficult. However, similarly to how the EPL started, if a major network like TSN presented to them the possible TV money to be made from such a move, it could happen to.

Okay maybe not never, but it's highly improbable. However, you are being overly optimistic.

You're right that the US has been slow to catch onto soccer. There are 2 main groups of fans the Europhiles and Latino's who they have yet to entice, both of these groups have allegiances to teams in other countries, and the general view in these groups is that MLS is inferior, which no one is disputing, also no one is asking them to cut their ties with clubs abroad. All that MLS has to do to gain viewership among these groups is to raise the level of play, which has been steadily increasing, and academy developed players will do wonders for this. And like here the demographics are changing there too, and interest will grow as the Latino population grows. TV viewship will increase, it's inevitable. 

How are owners are not keeping the quality of MLS down? Yes, growth is slower with salary caps compared to a model where they don't exist, but the last time soccer wasn't limited but unrestrained spending, it was one of the factors that led to the downfall of NASL. This is not the equivalent of keeping the quality of MLS down, and that isn't a statement anyone can make when investors are clearly investing millions in infrastructure and youth development. It would be non-nonsensical for them to spend all that money while at the same time limiting growth when that growth is what will lead to increased profits for them. Spending the right way is better than senseless spending.

Truth is, as much as you lot think the CPL is going to do well with little difficulty, it is equally likely to destined to mediocrity, of course we have to work to over come that. However, the majority of Canadian's either doesn't care enough about the sport to spend their money to watch games, or people think this endeavour is a waste of time, and would rather support their MLS teams and/or teams in Europe. In that respect Canada has many of the same issues that the US does when it comes to growing the sport, and CPL will face the same issues that MLS did like not playing in soccer specific stadiums, playing in front of small crowds etc. It will be a very very long time till the CPL will be successful enough to be considered legitimate by the vast majority of people in this country and around the world, and don't expect any big TV deals until then.

My hope is that this league can be to MLS what the championship is to the Premier League. That is the best I think anyone could hope for and no way does it diminish the value of the league.

 

[zen]

41 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

There may be no legal battle in the court system, as this is a FIFA governed issue, the dispute would have to go through the FIFA tribunals.  Just like when there is a player contract dispute.  Players are not allowed to sue in the courts, they have to go through FIFA channels of dispute resolution.  

Soccer is a business, forcing the MLS teams to stop playing would effectively be like forcing a business to shut down, so there will be a court battle.

20 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

Yea they could bring the lawsuits, but then the owners, the teams in question and probably the MLS would get banned by FIFA.  

Its association football.  If you want to be associated with the international community, you gotta play by the rules.

The outcome of which would be a lawsuit against FIFA.

[Ansem]

11 minutes ago, zen said:

Soccer is a business, forcing the MLS teams to stop playing would effectively be like forcing a business to shut down, so there will be a court battle.

Credit to Chet for finding this below :

"I think you're understating the effect that withdrawing sanctioning would have. The CSA, if it chooses, has the authority to ban MLS and its teams from operating in Canada. The FIFA Statutes are very clear on this:

72-2: Member associations and their clubs may not play on the territory of another
member association without the latter’s approval.

73: Associations, leagues or clubs that are affiliated to a member association may
only join another member association or take part in competitions on that
member association’s territory under exceptional circumstances. In each case,
authorisation must be given by both member associations, the respective
confederation(s) and by FIFA.

As an affiliate member of USSF, these statutes would apply to MLS."

In other words, CSA can indeed block any MLS teams from competing and operating in Canada

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Credit to Chet for finding this below :

"I think you're understating the effect that withdrawing sanctioning would have. The CSA, if it chooses, has the authority to ban MLS and its teams from operating in Canada. The FIFA Statutes are very clear on this:

72-2: Member associations and their clubs may not play on the territory of another
member association without the latter’s approval.

73: Associations, leagues or clubs that are affiliated to a member association may
only join another member association or take part in competitions on that
member association’s territory under exceptional circumstances. In each case,
authorisation must be given by both member associations, the respective
confederation(s) and by FIFA.

As an affiliate member of USSF, these statutes would apply to MLS."

As I added after editing my post, nothing stops MLS and it's ownership group suing FIFA.

[Ansem]

10 minutes ago, zen said:

As I added after editing my post, nothing stops MLS and it's ownership group suing FIFA

I wish MLS good luck with that. They would likely lose based on FIFA rules that are clear. In doing so, the USA can kiss 2026 world Cup bye bye...

The timing of all this is most interesting...

Same as when the NHL used their league rules to stop Balsillie from moving the Coyotes to Hamilton.

Why would the courts listen to MLS? USSF and MLS knew the FIFA rules beforehand. So now that the rules doesn't suit their interest, they think they would have a legal case to unmake FIFA rules that are older than my grandparents?

The law doesn't work that way.

Good on Vic and CSA to be willing to use FIFA rules for Canada's benefit for a change

[Macksam]

7 hours ago, reme90 said:

http://blog.3four3.com

Do yourself a favor and read this blog on MLS structure and culture. This is why the CANPL should not model itself after the MLS franchise model.

We need clubs not franchises.

"Clubs and national teams across the world represent people at a social, political, economic, and cultural level. It is their flag."

This is why I believe MLS will be stuck in mediocrity for the foreseeable future. You can't go far when the whole system reeks of suburban college boy soccer.

[zen]

The CPL will never be as big as MLS, no amount of wishful thinking on the part of the CSA or anyone here will change that. So, I don't believe it's in the best CSA's interest to de-sanction the MLS teams. While MLS hasn't done a lot so far for us, and I'm not saying it's a priority of theirs to help Canada. But as the Guardian article stated they still are working towards a resolution on Canadian players as domestics, take away the MLS teams down the road and we lose that. As MLS will be a higher level of play it's better that we have a vested interest so our players can benefit from it. To quote myself:

8 hours ago, zen said:

I've always thought the solution is fairly simple and should mirror what England is doing. In England, to be classified as homegrown a player must be on an English team for at least three years before the age of twenty-one. MLS should really do something similar if there really are legal issues with the current definition of domestic players. If MLS classified homegrown players as any player regardless of nationality that was registered with a club that was sanctioned by the USSF, or CSA, or their state/provincial/regional associations for a period of 3 years before their 18th birthday, that would automatically greatly benefit Canadians. 

Something like the solution I stated above is the logical solution to the domestic player issue, and this would clearly be a beneficial to Canadian players.

[zen]

21 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I wish MLS good luck with that. They would likely lose based on FIFA rules that are clear. In doing so, the USA can kiss 2026 world Cup bye bye...

The timing of all this is most interesting...

Same as when the NHL used their league rules to stop Balsillie from moving the Coyotes to Hamilton.

Why would the courts listen to MLS? USSF and MLS knew the FIFA rules beforehand. So now that the rules doesn't suit their interest, they think they would have a legal case to unmake FIFA rules that are older than my grandparents?

The law doesn't work that way.

Good on Vic and CSA to be willing to use FIFA rules for Canada's benefit for a change

I'm not too familiar with hockey, but the facts surrounding the case are different, so that can't be used as a precedent to prove that the same thing will be upheld in court in this situation. The mostly likely outcome of a court case would still result in the CSA and FIFA having to pay a significant amount of money in loss of income to MLSE and MLS. 

Having said that, I don't believe it's in the best CSA's interest to de-sanction the MLS teams. While MLS hasn't done a lot so far for us - and I'm not saying it's a priority of theirs to help Canada, as the Guardian article stated they still are working towards a resolution on Canadian players as domestics, take away the MLS teams down the road and we lose that. The CPL will never be as big as MLS, no amount of wishful thinking on the part of the CSA or anyone here will change that. The higher level of play MLS offers it's why better that we have a vested interest so our players can benefit from it. To quote myself:

8 hours ago, zen said:

I've always thought the solution is fairly simple and should mirror what England is doing. In England, to be classified as homegrown a player must be on an English team for at least three years before the age of twenty-one. MLS should really do something similar if there really are legal issues with the current definition of domestic players. If MLS classified homegrown players as any player regardless of nationality that was registered with a club that was sanctioned by the USSF, or CSA, or their state/provincial/regional associations for a period of 3 years before their 18th birthday, that would automatically greatly benefit Canadians. 

Something like the solution I stated above is the logical solution to the domestic player issue, and this would clearly be a beneficial to Canadian players. This wouldn't be possible if we were to not continue as partners.

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, zen said:

I'm not too familiar with hockey, but the facts surrounding the case are different, so that can't be used as a precedent to prove that the same thing will be upheld in court in this situation. The mostly likely outcome of a court case would still result in the CSA and FIFA having to pay a significant amount of money in loss of income to MLSE and MLS. 

The CPL will never be as big as MLS, no amount of wishful thinking on the part of the CSA or anyone here will change that. So, I don't believe it's in the best CSA's interest to de-sanction the MLS teams. While MLS hasn't done a lot so far for us, and I'm not saying it's a priority of theirs to help Canada. But as the Guardian article stated they still are working towards a resolution on Canadian players as domestics, take away the MLS teams down the road and we lose that. 

I understand that CPL will never be bigger than MLS.

But I disagree that we can't close the gap on quality and TV contract.

CSA and FIFA paying compensation for enforcing existing rules known beforehand by both the USSF and MLS to which they signed on is highly unlikely. MLS knew full well beforehand that the 3 clubs could operate from Canada only ifor CSA allowed it and they accepted most likely by a bidding legal contract.

To turn around now and contest it in court would be an expected outcome but would be quickly turned down. The law doesn't work that way. 

Victor wouldn't mention it if he hadn't done his homework before saying that and I'd like to think the Vice president of FIFA and president of CONCACAF knows what he's talking about

[-Hammer-]

16 minutes ago, zen said:

The CPL will never be as big as MLS, no amount of wishful thinking on the part of the CSA or anyone here will change that. So, I don't believe it's in the best CSA's interest to de-sanction the MLS teams. While MLS hasn't done a lot so far for us, and I'm not saying it's a priority of theirs to help Canada. But as the Guardian article stated they still are working towards a resolution on Canadian players as domestics, take away the MLS teams down the road and we lose that. As MLS will be a higher level of play it's better that we have a vested interest so our players can benefit from it. To quote myself:

Something like the solution I stated above is the logical solution to the domestic player issue, and this would clearly be a beneficial to Canadian players.

That is fair, barring a massive swath of Canadian support (like CFL level at minimum, given the CFL Canadian TV contract is currently rivaling MLS's US contract) and the US support stagnating or declineing (which I do doubt) MLS is going to be bigger then the CPL.

That said, the CPL doesn't need to be bigger then MLS. In fact, the emphasis on money making, size and marketting of MLS over development for the national team is what many point to why the US team can't make the next step.

It just needs to be big enough for us the develop enough players to get us into the World Cup. Heck, it doesn't even need to be bigger then them, it just needs to be more effective then the likes of Jamaica, Panama, Honduras and Costa Rica.

[Gopherbashi]

USSF has clear authority to set standards for Div I, II, and III leagues, but that hasn't stopped NASL from fighting their decisions in the court system.  Same legal fight would easily happen if CSA tries to force the MLS squads over to CPL.

What's important is that the MLS suit against CSA doesn't need to be legally successful; it just needs to threaten such a large financial drain on CSA resources to make the move unpalatable to make.  Threaten to sue for massive damages for lost revenue where even an out-of-court settlement would be a huge loss for the CSA.

(Not to mention the inevitable PR war, which the MLSE-backed TFC will absolutely crush the CSA in).

Kind of makes me wonder if MLS might back the Ontario-based PDL teams in their forced move to L1O if this is the new threat coming out of the CSA - it would certainly be advantageous if MLS could somehow get a legal ruling which puts the CSA/OSA on the hook for damages in a forced move should the new league be determined to be "inferior" to the old one.

[Gopherbashi]

On a side note, I love how quickly the pendulum swings from "CPL will be a massive laughing-stock of a failure" to "CPL doesn't *have* to be more successful than MLS but it could happen"

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

USSF has clear authority to set standards for Div I, II, and III leagues, but that hasn't stopped NASL from fighting their decisions in the court system.  Same legal fight would easily happen if CSA tries to force the MLS squads over to CPL.

What's important is that the MLS suit against CSA doesn't need to be legally successful; it just needs to threaten such a large financial drain on CSA resources to make the move unpalatable to make.  Threaten to sue for massive damages for lost revenue where even an out-of-court settlement would be a huge loss for the CSA.

(Not to mention the inevitable PR war, which the MLSE-backed TFC will absolutely crush the CSA in).

Kind of makes me wonder if MLS might back the Ontario-based PDL teams in their forced move to L1O if this is the new threat coming out of the CSA - it would certainly be advantageous if MLS could somehow get a legal ruling which puts the CSA/OSA on the hook for damages in a forced move should the new league be determined to be "inferior" to the old one.

Exactly!

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

USSF has clear authority to set standards for Div I, II, and III leagues, but that hasn't stopped NASL from fighting their decisions in the court system.  Same legal fight would easily happen if CSA tries to force the MLS squads over to CPL.

What's important is that the MLS suit against CSA doesn't need to be legally successful; it just needs to threaten such a large financial drain on CSA resources to make the move unpalatable to make.  Threaten to sue for massive damages for lost revenue where even an out-of-court settlement would be a huge loss for the CSA.

(Not to mention the inevitable PR war, which the MLSE-backed TFC will absolutely crush the CSA in).

Pretty sure FIFA would pick up the legal tab to avoid setting a dangerous precedent...like having its rules invalidated in court

[Complete Homer]

5 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Pretty sure FIFA would pick up the legal tab to avoid setting a dangerous precedent...like having its rules invalidated in court

I'd get that it writing 

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

Kind of makes me wonder if MLS might back the Ontario-based PDL teams in their forced move to L1O if this is the new threat coming out of the CSA - it would certainly be advantageous if MLS could somehow get a legal ruling which puts the CSA/OSA on the hook for damages in a forced move should the new league be determined to be "inferior" to the old one.

Again...good luck getting a ruling in their favor in court. FIFA rules takes precedent here. USSF and MLS knew before hand that CSA had last say on anything going on in their territory.

It's like me and you signing a a contract and just because some clause in it aren't in your favor, you choose to go to court to get compensation. If our contract doesn't violate any laws, courts will dismiss your claim