Canadian Premier League

[ted]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

“As I experienced it, it wasn’t about the Canadian players,” Nakajima-Farran says. “It was about the American league exploiting the Canadian cities. I would understand it if the Canadian teams were bringing in young players and promoting them but Toronto was bringing these American guys back. Even Montreal was trying to replace me with an American guy.”

So can we stop with the USL and NASL solution?

You might have a point... if you were totally ignorant of the facts.

USL and NASL league rules do not discriminate against Canadians in the same way the MLS rules do. Saying MLS internal rules make USL and NASL useless is the same as saying because you don't like apples you will never try a grape or an orange.

Also, you must have missed the part of this article - and every article ever published on this topic - where it points out the tight relationship between USSF and MLS. You ignore the FACT that MLS was born out of the '94 World Cup and was in FACT a creation of the USSF as part of their business plan to get the cup and, since then, to build a stronger national team.

Neither USL nor NASL were part of that plan.

They may not be the best solution, but they could be a viable option.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, ted said:

You might have a point... if you were totally ignorant of the facts.

USL and NASL league rules do not discriminate against Canadians in the same way the MLS rules do. Saying MLS internal rules make USL and NASL useless is the same as saying because you don't like apples you will never try a grape or an orange.

Also, you must have missed the part of this article - and every article ever published on this topic - where it points out the tight relationship between USSF and MLS. You ignore the FACT that MLS was born out of the '94 World Cup and was in FACT a creation of the USSF as part of their business plan to get the cup and, since then, to build a stronger national team.

Neither USL nor NASL were part of that plan.

They may not be the best solution, but they could be a viable option.

Thanks for calling me ignorant

I'm saying as whole, that US sanction league aren't the solution. MLS because of their rules against Canadian players and NASL+USL on how unlikely they will produce Canadian elites that can help the National Team. NASL is having problems of it's own while USL is at a level too low to provide the DEPTH needed to be successful in a Gold Cup, Copa America, WCQ and WC Campaign. Can we produce a few quality players in USL? Sure. Will it solve our problem? Not even close.

About the ties between the USSF and MLS, I`m far from being ignorant. I`m just highlighting the obvious that they don`t have our success at heart and that WE need to grow up and stop depending on Americans for everything.

Remember the article where Floro was stating how hard it was to get MLS players to be released from their clubs to participate in competitions and Senior team practice? USL is going after D2 and will most likely become the AHL of the MLS. Once that`s done and all those teams are affiliated to an MLS team, you think those barriers Floro was talking about will end?

USL is a none starter anyways as Vic clearly intend to block anything to play in a US sanction league. At this point, CPL seems inevitable

[zen]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

In conclusion, USL, NASL, MLS and USSF are NOT the solution. Sure we should get whatever we get from them but CPL is the only way to go. I'm satisfied with Vic's resolved into making CPL happen and his honest opinion on the USA vs Canada matter.

From what we can gather, they want to launch a league that will be viable and sustainable. They are taking their time to do it right and are only looking with owners with deep pockets that will commit for the long run and willing to go through the growing pain. I like that at the same time he's trying to get more concessions from MLS regarding the status of Canadian players within MLS.

As for his "within 5 year comment", it's anytime within 5 years, could be 2017-2018 or 2019. The secrecy regarding CPL might be a very strategic move to catch NASL and MLS offguard so they get less time to try and counter CPL. Make no mistake about it, MLS and  NSL will fight to keep their Canadian share of the market. They won't just lay down for CPL and let it claim the rest of the country. From a business strategy point of view, his vagueness regarding the start of the league is absolutely logical.

 

Don't forget to leave out this part: 

Montagliani believes a Canadian professional league will be launched within five years. Canada Soccer is currently evaluating how such a competition will operate in conjunction with the five Canadian teams that play in MLS and NASL. While he is bullish about withdrawing approval for MLS to operate in Canada, he hopes to announce “by the end of the year” a solution about player status rules that will see more Canadian players in MLS teams south of the border

This is key regardless of how well the CPL does, MLS will always be a step above and the best Canadian players will continue to look to MLS and Europe, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I've always thought the solution is fairly simple and should mirror what England is doing. In England, to be classified as homegrown a player must be on an English team for at least three years before the age of twenty-one. MLS should really do something similar if there really are legal issues with the current definition of domestic players. If MLS classified homegrown players as any player regardless of nationality that was registered with a club that was sanctioned by the USSF, or CSA, or their state/provincial/regional associations for a period of 3 years before their 18th birthday, that would automatically greatly benefit Canadians. 

 

[Ansem]

After rereading this article, anyone else see how good of a politician/strategist Vic is?

How plausible is it that the end game of the CSA reads as follow:

• Launch CPL with deep pockets owners
• Securing the remaining Canadian market for soccer by occupying the remaining biggest metro areas outside of the big 3
• Stabilizing the league and expansion
• Increasing the quality of play
• In the meantime, let the big 3 MLS Team gain more value and international notoriety
• Once CPL is fully stable and have a quality of play similar to MLS (Canadians domestics vs American domestics, excluding DP), strip MLS of the big 3 and make them play in CPL.

Seems like Vic wanted to throw it out there that the CSA did indeed had that leverage and that there was nothing the MLS nor those clubs could do about it. Vic is too good of a politician to not have had purposely sent this message.

The way I understand it, assuming hypothetically that CPL does peak one day, CSA could force the big 3 to switch to CPL or they would loose their CSA sanctioning and have nowhere to play. That a huge trump card to hold over them and I think Vic wanted them to be aware of it.

Sure the big 3 could simply move the franchises out of Canada but by looking at their respective ownership, seems pretty much impossible. 

I`m just speculating of course just for fun but it does make for interesting debates

[-Hammer-]

33 minutes ago, ted said:

You might have a point... if you were totally ignorant of the facts.

USL and NASL league rules do not discriminate against Canadians in the same way the MLS rules do. Saying MLS internal rules make USL and NASL useless is the same as saying because you don't like apples you will never try a grape or an orange.

Also, you must have missed the part of this article - and every article ever published on this topic - where it points out the tight relationship between USSF and MLS. You ignore the FACT that MLS was born out of the '94 World Cup and was in FACT a creation of the USSF as part of their business plan to get the cup and, since then, to build a stronger national team.

Neither USL nor NASL were part of that plan.

They may not be the best solution, but they could be a viable option.

This is a completely fair point, to which the fair counter is "Alright, well MLS has talked about wanting to improve Canadian development for ages. Why haven't they duplicated the rules the USL and NASL use for the MLS Canadian teams?" It's clear the high Canadian requirement on the MSL farm teams and NASL teams has posed no issue to labour laws. It's been over a decade since TFC came around, surely you should have developed at least 6 capable Canadian starters by now?

Now granted, even if they did that, it still wouldn't be nearly enough players getting meaningful minutes, but at least they could say "Hey, we are doing everything we can within the laws of the US to ensure as many Canadian players are getting minutes at the highest level."

I should also add to that is MLS was born of getting kicked out at the knockout stage in 94, how can you fault anyone wanting to see a new league born of failing to make the Hex, when it's overwhelming clear that after a decade MLS has not produced any headway for our qualifying.

[Gopherbashi]

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

• Once CPL is fully stable and have a quality of play similar to MLS (Canadians domestics vs American domestics, excluding DP), strip MLS of the big 3 and make them play in CPL.

Seems like Vic wanted to throw it out there that the CSA did indeed had that leverage and that there was nothing the MLS nor those clubs could do about it. Vic is too good of a politician to not have had purposely sent this message.

There's tons that MLS, TFC, IMFC, and VWFC could do about it.

Or, rather, there's tons that lawyers hired by the deep-pocketed MLS, TFC, IMFC, and VWFC could do about it.  A war of financial, legal attrition on this issue would probably not end well for the CSA, and by extension, the CPL.

They might not get anywhere legally, but they'd fight tooth and nail by burning through the CSA's wallet like there's no tomorrow.

[zen]

3 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

There's tons that MLS, TFC, IMFC, and VWFC could do about it.

Or, rather, there's tons that lawyers hired by the deep-pocketed MLS, TFC, IMFC, and VWFC could do about it.  A war of financial, legal attrition on this issue would probably not end well for the CSA, and by extension, the CPL.

They might not get anywhere legally, but they'd fight tooth and nail by burning through the CSA's wallet like there's no tomorrow.

They would be successful legally. The CPL will never be equal to MLS, so the loss of potential revenue would be a huge point of contention for those teams.

[shermanator]

40 minutes ago, ted said:

USL and NASL league rules do not discriminate against Canadians in the same way the MLS rules do.

USL doesn't, but NASL does. Canadians are treated as internationals on American NASL clubs.

Shaun Saiko was released midway through the 2014 season because San Antonio acquired an international. David Monsalve lost a contract opportunity in 2015 with Jacksonville because they didn't want him as an international, and wanted him to wait a year to get a green card before they would sign him. Nana Attakora got his green card to get a job with San Antonio and Fort Lauderdale.

Aside from this, I think that given the many developments in the last year that have negatively impacted the NASL, I think that league is even less of a solution than MLS is. Part of that view is the Canadians as internationals thing, another part is the league just looks like a dumpster fire right now. In the last year NASL has lost Atlanta and San Antonio, had Minnesota United officially announce a move to MLS, plus the Rayo OKC disaster, Fort Lauderdale not paying their players on time on multiple occasions, and Ottawa rumoured to leave.

[Ansem]

9 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

There's tons that MLS, TFC, IMFC, and VWFC could do about it.

Or, rather, there's tons that lawyers hired by the deep-pocketed MLS, TFC, IMFC, and VWFC could do about it.  A war of financial, legal attrition on this issue would probably not end well for the CSA, and by extension, the CPL.

They might not get anywhere legally, but they'd fight tooth and nail by burning through the CSA's wallet like there's no tomorrow.

This scenario is only assuming that the CPL peaks in term of revenues and quality of play. Again, if you strip most MLS squads of their DP, it becomes quickly very sub par. It`s not unrealistic in saying that Canadian born players could match American born players in term of skills over time.

What happens if CSA removed their sanction? They`d be banned from the V Cup at the very least and by default the CCL. From the interpretation I have of the article, the CSA seem to have the power to block Canadian clubs from competing in a US sanction league.

In term of legal battles, the result would most likely be compensations would have to be paid to either the MLS or the clubs or all of them... Wouldn`t be pretty in term of PR for the big 3 to start anti-CPL rants in the media.

I don`t think you can block CSA from stopping MLS in operating in Canada

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

1 hour ago, BrennanFan said:

"within 5 years" can only mean there is nothing concrete as of yet.  Frustrating.

or it means they are taking their time to make sure their ducks are legitimately in a row.

But we're both speculating wildly at this point

[BrennanFan]

25 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

There's tons that MLS, TFC, IMFC, and VWFC could do about it.

Or, rather, there's tons that lawyers hired by the deep-pocketed MLS, TFC, IMFC, and VWFC could do about it.  A war of financial, legal attrition on this issue would probably not end well for the CSA, and by extension, the CPL.

They might not get anywhere legally, but they'd fight tooth and nail by burning through the CSA's wallet like there's no tomorrow.

The CSA has been lied to by MLS various times since 2006.  CSA would litigate from a position of confidence.  

Most importantly, Vic Mont has enough sense that he wouldnt unsaction unless he had FIFA's blessing.  

Players on an unsanctioned team would not be able to take part in any events sanctioned by the CSA and FIFA.  

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 hour ago, BrennanFan said:

"within 5 years" can only mean there is nothing concrete as of yet.  Frustrating.

Agree that it definitely suggests nothing is imminent as I'm sure he wouldn't have phrased it that way if it was just around the corner. Makes me wonder if the CPL is all just a bluff at this point from a CSA standpoint (not saying it is for the Ticats) to try to gain some leverage on MLS.

[reme90]

http://blog.3four3.com

Do yourself a favor and read this blog on MLS structure and culture. This is why the CANPL should not model itself after the MLS franchise model.

We need clubs not franchises.

"Clubs and national teams across the world represent people at a social, political, economic, and cultural level. It is their flag."

[Ansem]

12 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

The CSA has been lied to by MLS various times since 2006.  CSA would litigate from a position of confidence.  

Most importantly, Vic Mont has enough sense that he wouldnt unsaction unless he had FIFA's blessing.  

Players on an unsanctioned team would not be able to take part in any events sanctioned by the CSA and FIFA.  

That`s what I call massive leverage.

Realistically, there`s no way that the CSA hasn`t already planned and did their homework on how to get the big 3 and the necessary conditions that CPL would need to meet before pulling the trigger.

Again, there`s no way Vic would have said something like that if he hadn`t done his homework before dropping a bomb like that. I always thought that getting the big 3 would need convincing but I had no clue the CSA held so much leverage over them.

Legally, MLS would go after compensations but I don`t believe they have any legal ground to have the right to operate in Canada without the CSA blessing. 

Of course doing that when the CPL starts is a none starter but a scenario where the CPL reaches it`s peak by slowly growing first, stabilizing the league, increasing quality of play, increasing revenues and occupies all of Canada top markets, then the big 3 would be needed to make the League go to the next level.

I have a feeling getting the big 3 is the end game. 

[Complete Homer]

There is absolutely zero chance the MLS teams leave. Their entire structure is tied to MLS, it would be a collosal legal battle that is in no one's favour. I cannot see the judicial system looking favourably on the CSA attempting to use FIFA's mostly made up powers to do huge damage to the value of those 3 franchises. The closest I could see happening is longstanding desanctioning leading league ownership to ask the Canadian clubs to sell their stakes, and the owners turning around and launching CPL teams, but that is the most extreme fantasy possible. 

Desanctioning is still a collosal card to play, and while I think it's a bluff, it could do enough damage to the franchise owners and the league that MLS might be forced to act. Given that Bez echoed Vic's words, the franchises might be on board with pressuring the league to make Canadians (or, say, products of Canadian academies to skirt American law). 

[Complete Homer]

2 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Agree that it definitely suggests nothing is imminent as I'm sure he wouldn't have phrased it that way if it was just around the corner. Makes me wonder if the CPL is all just a bluff at this point from a CSA standpoint (not saying it is for the Ticats) to try to gain some leverage on MLS.

Buy your tinfoil hats here! Protects against classic CSA conspiracies like the CPL launch, World Cup bids, and the assassination of JFK! 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

7 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

...and while I think it's a bluff...

Immediately above he uses the exact same phrase I do, but somehow when I do it, it becomes tinfoil hat stuff. Bizarre to say the least.

[Complete Homer]

3 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Immediately above he uses the exact same phrase I do, but somehow when I do it, it becomes tinfoil hat stuff. Bizarre to say the least.

There's a big difference between casually mentioning the idea of desanctioning in an interview as a bluff and using a league that has been worked on and organized for years to the point of team FOs sending out people to promote it simply as a bluff 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

In your mind maybe. How about discussing ideas rather than launching ad hominen attacks? The business plan has yet to be approved despite last weekend supposedly being the time it would happen and suddenly there is a five rather than the customary two year timeline placed on things by Victor Montagliani. The whole article reads like an attempt to blackmail MLS into a rule change and that's not necessarily a bad thing if it works.

[Complete Homer]

9 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

In your mind maybe. How about discussing ideas rather than launching ad hominen attacks? The business plan has yet to be approved despite last weekend supposedly being the time it would happen and suddenly there is a five rather than the customary two year timeline placed on things by Victor Montagliani. The whole article reads like an attempt to blackmail MLS into a rule change and that's not necessarily a bad thing if it works.

I really would if this thread wasn't a showcase of you denigrating anyone reporting on, involved with, or encouraged by the prospect of this league. You've practically been Captain Ad Hominen 

If you really think everything we've heard over the past six months is an elaborate ruse to get action from MLS, go right ahead, but I can't imagine anyone who doesn't watch this thread for the sole purpose of scoffing would come to that conclusion 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Did you understand what was implied by "at this point" in the text you quoted? I suspect not.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

[Complete Homer]

6 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Did you understand what was implied by "at this point" in the text you quoted? I suspect not.

So your point rests on the idea that CPL recently fell apart, despite the only evidence we have (however reliable or not one chooses to rate it) has indicated the opposite? 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Finally starting to get there on English language comprehension. Finally for now, what does the "Makes me wonder" part of the text you quoted imply about whether I am actually making an assertion that completely dismisses possible evidence to the contrary?

[Complete Homer]

1 minute ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Finally starting to get there on English language comprehension. Finally for now, what does the "Makes me wonder" part of the text you quoted imply about whether I am actually making an assertion that completely dismisses possible evidence to the contrary?

You know, I was halfway through writing an apology for my joke to allow real discussion to return, but I simply can't with a comment like this. 

You've grasped at literally any straw you could find over the last few months to declare the idea of CPL dead. This was a particularly bad attempt. Don't pretend that the particular wording of the attempt absolves you of its ridiculousness. I'd also say it's not very smart to use an ad hominen attack a single post after complaining about ad hominen attacks. 

Let's agree to drop it for the sake of the thread