Canadian Premier League

[Complete Homer]

48 minutes ago, reme90 said:

No one cares about MLS because it's Americanized and NOT Authentic. The vast majority of USA/Canada ignore MLS as they are educated about the game. They KNOW and WANT the real thing. Which is why the TV is flooded with European and South American soccer. 

Soccer is still untapped in the USA because clubs DON'T exist in D1 and real Clubs are not allowed into D1. 

Which is why the franchise model is doomed to fail. 

I respectfully disagree and I believe education on the issue is needed. You are wrong on all 3 points (1) Initial Investors will risk millions if relegated, 2) You need Millions, Large Market & Stadium to buy in  3) CFL is the structure we know. 

1) You can make rules to protect the initial investors and their $$$ while having an open structure. For example: No relegation for 15 years or until 20 clubs, whichever is first. If owners expect to lose millions in the first years, giving them 15 years to get it right protects their investment. NO ONE expects relegation to be possible for YEARS, you just need the framework from the getgo. 

2) EIBAR and literally thousands of clubs like it in the world prove this is simply not true. A small Market, with small budget in a small stadium can be profitable, successful and competitive. 

3) The CFL structure fails because it IS 2nd rate to the NFL. If we structure the CPL EXACTLY like MLS it too will die a painful and premature death. 

PRO/REL ensures the viability of the league which ensures profitability for the owner. 
 

IF 5k to 10k is the breakeven point than literally every city can have a club. WHICH WOULD BE AWESOME. 

Salary caps, revenue sharing can shield investors from MILLIONS in losses. The League needs to be VIABLE and have full community engagement, only clubs do that, NOT FRANCHISES. The more clubs the better the corporate sponsorship.

 

BANG ON. Why force a dying model. Give us the real thing and it will thrive. 

Why are the 3 MLS markets out of the question? This is ludicrious

As someone who has been extremely optimistic about this league... what planet are you living on? 

MLS doesn't dominate the TV market, but the 20k to 30k people who show up each week certainly care, and we would be very lucky if people ever cared that much about CPL. 

10k is not a realistic goal in the vast majority of communities this generation. Who knows, nobody gave a shitty about basketball and two generations later it is a dominant league, so it could happen one day, but not for a long long time

How exactly does pro/rel ensure viability? By scaring off investors who could see their investment lost by a poor season? It isn't happening, even if we could actually support enough clubs for pro/rel to be in the discussion 

[Coramoor]

1 hour ago, reme90 said:

 

This club argument is absurd, nobody cares what the business designation of a sports team is.

thousands of clubs? really? Also I'm pretty sure Eibar remains profitable primarily by relying on player loans from other teams where they don't have to pay the full salary of the player, I know that was the case in their promotion season.

The CFL operates using the same business structure as the NFL with a few minor difference, it's second tier because of media markets, country population, relative interest in the sport itself, a bunch of stuff along those lines.

 

[reme90]

Newly promoted club Alaves beat Barcelona today 2-1. It's club is based out of a city of 240,000 people.

But don't mind me while I enjoy this Ice Tea. Y'all GO AHEAD and keep pretending a league with 5-6 teams in only major metropolitan urban centres is the sure fire way to go.

Franchise model with territorial claims where only billionaires are allowed to play is boring. The knowing public will choose the real thing and those that cant tell the difference will choose MLS.

[zen]

2 hours ago, reme90 said:

No one cares about MLS because it's Americanized and NOT Authentic. The vast majority of USA/Canada ignore MLS as they are educated about the game. They KNOW and WANT the real thing. Which is why the TV is flooded with European and South American soccer. 

The only reason people don't care for MLS is because the level is still horrible compared to those leagues. Most of these people are passionate about the sport but are only casual MLS watchers, and they rarely if ever attend MLS games. If MLS offered the same level of play there would be no question that people would follow their teams.

[baulderdash77]

Pro/Rel is absurd in this context. It's a solution to a problem we don't have.  You have to let it go.

Relegation to what?  Promotion from what?  There's no if cluster of D2 teams dying to get into the CPL.  We're having a hard time coming up with a 6th team here.  The maximum feasible limit is probably 10 or 12 teams and that's a huge stretch for half the markets.  We're never going to have a full table of 20 to 24 teams that would require a relegation conversatio. 

[reme90]

1 hour ago, Complete Homer said:

10k is not a realistic goal in the vast majority of communities this generation. Who knows, nobody gave a shitty about basketball and two generations later it is a dominant league, so it could happen one day, but not for a long long time

How exactly does pro/rel ensure viability? By scaring off investors who could see their investment lost by a poor season? It isn't happening, even if we could actually support enough clubs for pro/rel to be in the discussion 

Planet Football... you are new here, welcome.

300 million people and not even 1% of 1% care about MLS. They'd rather watch a little League game which garnered 3x more ratings than Por v Sea.

Does this mean the USA/Canada are not footballing nations? Quite the contrary. The soccer first Demographic rabidly supports soccer. Thousands woke up as early as 4 am to watch the Manchester derby .... I can assure not 1 person would do that to watch MLS.

The only way CANPL flourishes is if it models itself after World Football and not North American sports. Think Mexican grandma's tacos vs Taco Bell.

Let me repeat myself. Pro/Rel must be built in the framework of the league from the start. Practically speaking NO RELEGATION can happen until regional leagues are operating.

This protects investors from Relegation for years (10YRS+) to come. Thats longer than most would be prepared to take on financial losses anyways.

However by having an open market. It becomes a clear Pathway for ANY club, investor, Academy to merit their way into D1 soccer. I believe the very incentive to earn promotion into the Premier League will jumpstart investment like never seen before. Plus it engages fans as they CARRY their team into D1. Real attachment and loyalty.

There are big youth clubs that would amalgamate efforts to run a Pro team. Imagine that? Soccer clubs working together instead of fighting for house league registrations.

Business and Sponsors love to support a market that feels true brand loyalty. 

Worst case scenario by having an open system regional leagues would form across the country and only 1 of them would move up. Once we have 20+ clubs (20yrs from now) Relegation would be possible.

[Coramoor]

35 minutes ago, reme90 said:

 

300 million people and not even 1% of 1% care about MLS. They'd rather watch a little League game which garnered 3x more ratings than Por v Sea.

 

That's bad math, you're stating that only 30,000 people in the entire USA care about MLS

[Kent]

For the people suggesting to build up clubs in USL and then move them to CPL later in order to reduce risk, I don't see how that reduces risk. In that scenario you take a risk when creating the club in USL, then you later risk a successful club to move to the CPL. Right now nobody thinks MLS teams would join the CPL, but somehow we are to believe that successful teams in the future will leave their stable league for a brand new unknown league?

[rob.notenboom]

On September 3, 2016 at 1:17 PM, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

 

[rob.notenboom]

Out of all the words typed in this thread where people express absolute certainty, about 1% of 1% are worthy about being certain about. 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

16 hours ago, Macksam said:

I don't get why people think this is a bad idea. These cities are close to an hour apart from each other and have the right demographics for soccer. They all have CHL teams and I don't think anybody is thinking junior hockey is "overdiluting" southern Ontario. 

The gutless, CFL-type, Canadian, protectionist ownership mentality needs to stop. It's holding the country back in so many things....let's not make soccer one of them. I remember reading an article on how the former commissioner of the CFL waived off possible expansion into Saskatoon because the city fell in the Riders' "territory". That right there made me sick to my stomach considering the cities are more than 2 and half hours apart FFS. 

Let's not bring that gutless bull shit into the CPL. 

For those not in the know, Dortmund is less than a half an hour drive from where Schalke play.

Couldn't have said it better myself.  The key, IMO is the salary cap and revenue sharing.  It's not so bad having overlapping regions if you know if your team is struggling financially that the league will have your back.  

The old NASL died not so much because soccer isn't popular over here, but because the club model is financially unstable, especially considering how many other sports there are for the casual, non-soccer fan to follow.  

This is why MLS won't ever die, and CPL can learn some lessons from MLS.  This thing either lives or dies as a collective, not on a club to club basis.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

5 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

 

It's obviously not reproducible everywhere, I'm not sure how many people in rural Saskatchewan would have had a similar story, but it irks me when it is assumed that recent immigrants are the only people who can drive attendance at soccer games. If that was true, Chivas USA would have driven LA Galaxy out of business instead of the other way around

I think people under-estimate just how strong of a foothold grassroots soccer has.  It may not yet have made it's way into popular culture yet, but we all are aware the soccer has more registered players by far than any other sport.  Hockey literally isn't even close, despite what their fans would have you believe.  To me, it's not so much a question of do people support soccer, but will they support local soccer.  But I think most of us knew that.

Hell, I don't think we should even be looking at it as will people support europe etc OR Canadian soccer.  Like seriously why not both?  You'll get a few snobs sure, but honestly I think once people get out in the right atmosphere it's infectious.  The launch will be CRITICAL.

Also, Free Beer Movement.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

2 hours ago, reme90 said:

Newly promoted club Alaves beat Barcelona today 2-1. It's club is based out of a city of 240,000 people.

But don't mind me while I enjoy this Ice Tea. Y'all GO AHEAD and keep pretending a league with 5-6 teams in only major metropolitan urban centres is the sure fire way to go.

Franchise model with territorial claims where only billionaires are allowed to play is boring. The knowing public will choose the real thing and those that cant tell the difference will choose MLS.

Franchise model yes, territorial claims no.  I would love this to be europe, but it simply isn't

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

also, I don't remember where I read this but who said "Nobody gives a fuck about MLS". 

Are you sure?  It's still a very young league and as far as I'm concerned it's growing very quickly.

Are there still some loyalists?  Sure, but, the tide is most certainly turning.  FFS they're about to add like what, 5 teams in the next 2 years?

[reme90]

2 hours ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

also, I don't remember where I read this but who said "Nobody gives a fuck about MLS". 

Are you sure?  It's still a very young league and as far as I'm concerned it's growing very quickly.

Are there still some loyalists?  Sure, but, the tide is most certainly turning.  FFS they're about to add like what, 5 teams in the next 2 years?

In a recent game between RSL V SEA the TV rating was 53k ... not in the region but the entire country. That's even including 6,000 on Univision. 2 flagship franchises and it broke a record for the lowest EVER rating on Fox Sports... this was during August, MLS' strongest month.

Meanwhile clubs like Cincinnati FC who average greater attendance than some MLS franchises will languish in obscurity and will eventually die out. Because MINOR leagues suck. Which is what the CANPL will be to MLS if it copies it model.

Let me be clear there lessons that MLS has taught that have contributed to stability that CANPL should implement. Such as Salary Cap, Revenue Sharing, League Sponsorship as a whole, playoff championship, summer schedule. These are all able to be implemented in an open system that has Pro/Rel.

One of the greatest lessons though AND DON'T OVERLOOK THIS is every successful franchise came from the community. Portland Seattle Whitecaps TFC RSL and especially now ORLANDO were not fabricated by the league. They had their own culture. 

Look at the Sacramento and Orlando ... see how the $$$$, fans, city officials, qualified owners and facilities came together the moment that they were working towards "PROMOTION" into D1 soccer. Now imagine an open market where every club in ANY city can MERIT there way into MLS. SOCCER WOULD EXPLODE. The soccer first Demographic would quickly look for a club that represents them and investors would look to build clubs for them.

Demand Clubs over Franchises.

[matty]

4 hours ago, reme90 said:

Planet Football... you are new here, welcome.

300 million people and not even 1% of 1% care about MLS. They'd rather watch a little League game which garnered 3x more ratings than Por v Sea.

Does this mean the USA/Canada are not footballing nations? Quite the contrary. The soccer first Demographic rabidly supports soccer. Thousands woke up as early as 4 am to watch the Manchester derby .... I can assure not 1 person would do that to watch MLS.

The only way CANPL flourishes is if it models itself after World Football and not North American sports. Think Mexican grandma's tacos vs Taco Bell.

Point 1: Well somehow that 1% has turned MLS into the 8th most attended soccer league in the world (more attended than Ligue 1, Eredivisie, The Championship and both Argentina and Brazil's leagues). It also averages north of 300,000 viewers in the US, which is rising while say the ratings for the NHL and NBA are going down.

EDIT: The bigger leagues are the mega leagues Liga MX, Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A, Premier League and the national leagues of China and India.....India's league follows the MLS model

Point 2: Bob Bradley watches at 4am

Point 3: No because North Americans are used to our way and other large nations (Australia, India and Russia) have used our model to make their leagues work

[reme90]

40 minutes ago, matty said:

Point 1: MLS into the 8th most attended soccer league in the world 

Point 2: Bob Bradley watches at 4am

Point 3: No because North Americans are used to our way and other large nations (Australia, India and Russia) have used our model to make their leagues work

15k official attendance for Crew v Whitecaps... go see the video highlights and see if that sounds about right. The place looks like a high school soccer game with all those empty seats.

Bob Bradley for our next Canmnt coach.

Franchise MLS model is great for owners in the way the People's Democratic Republic of North Korea is great for Kim. Monopolies are good for business OWNERS,  but it's death to innovation, growth, and development.

And isn't the CanPL supposed to be about providing opportunity for Canadians to grow, develop and innovate?

Competition breeds excellence. Monopolies breed complacency and indifference. 

[matty]

32 minutes ago, reme90 said:

In a recent game between RSL V SEA the TV rating was 53k ... not in the region but the entire country. That's even including 6,000 on Univision. 2 flagship franchises and it broke a record for the lowest EVER rating on Fox Sports... this was during August, MLS' strongest month.

Meanwhile clubs like Cincinnati FC who average greater attendance than some MLS franchises will languish in obscurity and will eventually die out. Because MINOR leagues suck. Which is what the CANPL will be to MLS if it copies it model.

Let me be clear there lessons that MLS has taught that have contributed to stability that CANPL should implement. Such as Salary Cap, Revenue Sharing, League Sponsorship as a whole, playoff championship, summer schedule. These are all able to be implemented in an open system that has Pro/Rel.

One of the greatest lessons though AND DON'T OVERLOOK THIS is every successful franchise came from the community. Portland Seattle Whitecaps TFC RSL and especially now ORLANDO were not fabricated by the league. They had their own culture. 

Look at the Sacramento and Orlando ... see how the $$$$, fans, city officials, qualified owners and facilities came together the moment that they were working towards "PROMOTION" into D1 soccer. Now imagine an open market where every club in ANY city can MERIT there way into MLS. SOCCER WOULD EXPLODE. The soccer first Demographic would quickly look for a club that represents them and investors would look to build clubs for them.

Demand Clubs over Franchises.

I'm trying to think of how to reply but your argument is just so bad and involves statements you clearly didn't research (the game was on minor Spanish sports channel FOX Deportes not the giant Univision)

[matty]

21 minutes ago, reme90 said:

15k official attendance for Crew v Whitecaps... go see the video highlights and see if that sounds about right. The place looks like a high school soccer game with all those empty seats.

Bob Bradley for our next Canmnt coach.

Franchise MLS model is great for owners in the way the People's Democratic Republic of North Korea is great for Kim. Monopolies are good for business OWNERS,  but it's death to innovation, growth, and development.

And isn't the CanPL supposed to be about providing opportunity for Canadians to grow, develop and innovate?

Competition breeds excellence. Monopolies breed complacency and indifference. 

Your first point doesn't mean anything other than some teams are more popular than others like every single league on the planet (edit: just saw there was a weather delay to that game). MLS draws more people to games on average than the top flights in France, Brazil and Argentina.

Likely.

Then why do Canada and the US dominate hockey and why does the US control the basketball game? Everyone else has pro/rel in those sports but rarely comes close to the nations where the NHL and NBA have monopolies.

The minor leagues are needed yes but pro/rel could actually KILL THIS LEAGUE

[TRM]

17 minutes ago, reme90 said:

15k official attendance for Crew v Whitecaps... go see the video highlights and see if that sounds about right. The place looks like a high school soccer game with all those empty seats.

Bob Bradley for our next Canmnt coach.

A huge storm that caused a 90 minute delay and it was still raining when they finally started the game. I'm surprised that many stayed around.

I could live with that. He is a good quality coach. Has he given up on his dreams of EPL?

[baulderdash77]

Guys reme90  is just trolling us here re pro/reg.  He can't answer the question of which market is going to force reg after the CanPL hits 24 teams and where this mythical 25th team goes after it gets relegated..  Don't take the bait anymore and quit feeding the troll.

[matty]

Non-possible troll note

Do you think the CPL will cause CONCACAF to create a secondary club competition? If the CCL is forced to adapt to include the CPL and 1-4 spots are removed from the group stage a lot of cash could be lost for some clubs from the smaller nations. A secondary cup, perhaps a 16-team knock-out cup, could be a quick and easy answer.

[baulderdash77]

I bet they would.  They're looking to expand the tournament and Canada has really punched above its weight in CCL.  Maybe a new tournament or maybe the Canadian  Championship expands.  With a full league I bet the Canadian Championship winner and the CanPL winner would get spots.

[Shway]

8 minutes ago, matty said:

Non-possible troll note

Do you think the CPL will cause CONCACAF to create a secondary club competition? If the CCL is forced to adapt to include the CPL and 1-4 spots are removed from the group stage a lot of cash could be lost for some clubs from the smaller nations. A secondary cup, perhaps a 16-team knock-out cup, could be a quick and easy answer.

Something like the super liga was.....but with a few changes to the format

[matty]

Just now, Jahinho Guerro said:

Something like the super liga was.....but with a few changes to the format

yea with more teams. can't do a decent continental cup with less than 16 teams