Canadian Premier League

[baulderdash77]

They're going to go with a franchised system.  Why else would the startup partners risk the capital to start the league.

Remember this is a for profit enterprise, it's for the betterment of soccer in Canada but the league will be operating to make money.  So it must be a closed league.

The closed league will benefit us in that you're going to get true professional teams and not semi pro teams.  There will also have to be a PA and CBA to avoid anti competitive lawsuits and to allow for structured trading systems and manage eligibility requirements.

There seems to be a lot of "dreamers" on the board but there HS to be a dose of reality when it comes to these things.

[mpg_29]

26 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

They're going to go with a franchised system.  Why else would the startup partners risk the capital to start the league.

Remember this is a for profit enterprise, it's for the betterment of soccer in Canada but the league will be operating to make money.  So it must be a closed league.

The closed league will benefit us in that you're going to get true professional teams and not semi pro teams.  There will also have to be a PA and CBA to avoid anti competitive lawsuits and to allow for structured trading systems and manage eligibility requirements.

There seems to be a lot of "dreamers" on the board but there HS to be a dose of reality when it comes to these things.

I think people effectively trying to implement the soccer equivalent of the CFL are the dreamers...for multitude of reasons but:

A. I'm highly skeptical you will get CFL level attendance (~25,000avg)

B. How good are the TV deals going to be when there is already pro soccer teams in the 3 major markets?

Also most of your reasons for having a closed based franchise league are the result of a closed based franchise leagues..

 

[Macksam]

2 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

A. I'm highly skeptical you will get CFL level attendance (~25,000avg)

Initially, I don't even think they'll get that across the league with every single franchise. However, some will gain traction faster than others; I can see Hamilton killing it right out of the gate. 

If we manage to get the 2026 World Cup,  we'll see the CPL draw equal to or higher than its CFL counterpart in the 2 years leading up to the tournament. The new venues, soccer culture, marketing build up and hype of the tournament would guarantee it. 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

16 minutes ago, Macksam said:

If we manage to get the 2026 World Cup,  we'll see the CPL draw equal to or higher than its CFL counterpart in the 2 years leading up to the tournament. The new venues, soccer culture, marketing build up and hype of the tournament would guarantee it. 

IMO a world cup would cement CPL as a permanently viable league, assuming any level of marketing competency.

[Pqhbv]

4 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

I'd like to see a bottom-up decentralized approach than a top-down centralized approach. It should not be franchised based. It should be based on "free market" principles with no salary caps and no revenue sharing.  I think the only salary restriction should be players must be paid and can't make less than the equivalent of a min. wage salary in team's province (aka min salary $20,000-$25,000).

I think the league would be much more resilient, could accommodate many more teams and player development would be much more organic.

If Moncton could only afford to have a $450,000 payroll then so be it.  If Calgary can afford a $2.5 million dollar payroll then so be it.

If they go with a "CFL business approach" I feel we be limited to fewer cities, have less player development and ultimately more chance of failure. 

I agree, in that the only way for something like this to happen is from the bottom up. The CFL owners are not going to do that though. Additionally, as mentioned before, we lack the soccer culture, infrastructure, and teams for this. Namely, entry level semi-pro teams at the D3 level across the country. 

 

[Jason]

5 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

I'd like to see a bottom-up decentralized approach than a top-down centralized approach. It should not be franchised based. It should be based on "free market" principles with no salary caps and no revenue sharing.  I think the only salary restriction should be players must be paid and can't make less than the equivalent of a min. wage salary in team's province (aka min salary $20,000-$25,000).

I think the league would be much more resilient, could accommodate many more teams and player development would be much more organic.

If Moncton could only afford to have a $450,000 payroll then so be it.  If Calgary can afford a $2.5 million dollar payroll then so be it.

If they go with a "CFL business approach" I feel we be limited to fewer cities, have less player development and ultimately more chance of failure. 

The problem with this approach is that you can't force this kind of evolution.  In Europe, leagues were created many years ago by groups of ambitious clubs that were in a position to go a higher level of competition.  These teams evolved over time to get into that position.  In Canada, we have a long history of soccer clubs, but over the years no club or group of clubs have made these steps and became pro clubs.  The new L1O and PLSQ  are on this track but have just begun and the rest of the country isn't set up yet at all.

Maybe the cream of L1O, PLSQ, a new BC League, Prairie League, and Martime League could evolve into this, but I'm not that patient as it would take at least a decade to happen.   I'm not willing to wait, especially when there seems to be a big money owners knocking at the door.

The closed franchise system is a big shortcut.  They will have access to TV, sponsorships, and other revenue that an organic league would take years and years to build up.  

If you say pump some $ into small local clubs to help them take the next step, who decides who is worthy of that cash?  And if a CFL owner wants to go big right away, why are we going to stand in their way?

The history and evolution of soccer in North America is so different compared to Europe.  It's just not realistic to create similar systems from two such different histories.

Jason

 

[Macksam]

7 hours ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

IMO a world cup would cement CPL as a permanently viable league, assuming any level of marketing competency.

It would literally be a match made in heaven.

On May 13, 2016 at 6:07 PM, Pqhbv said:

NBLC is a great example... I secretly follow the league...

I feel I the need to reveal a dirty secret of mine as well. Here goes...... I still watch old WCW pay per views on these things called VHS cassettes. Lol, I must've recorded at least 20 of them back in the day.

[zen]

On 5/14/2016 at 10:58 AM, mpg_29 said:

I think people effectively trying to implement the soccer equivalent of the CFL are the dreamers...for multitude of reasons but:

A. I'm highly skeptical you will get CFL level attendance (~25,000avg)

B. How good are the TV deals going to be when there is already pro soccer teams in the 3 major markets?

Also most of your reasons for having a closed based franchise league are the result of a closed based franchise leagues..

 

How do you suggest we organically grow a league? Start with our D3 leagues and introduce promotion and relegation? Our D3 leagues serve the purpose of developing local talent, but they aren't profitable enough, they don't pay players, they are poorly attended by anyone other than friends and family, they play on the same fields as rep soccer teams..how could they possibly come near providing any sort of professional game day experience? The reason promotion and relegation works in countries like England is because they have a culture here of going out an supporting local teams, those gate fares go a long way toward creating viable businesses. We don't have that kind of culture here. Despite that kind of support being cultivated over the past 100 years, relegated teams all over Europe struggle to remain in existence. Why? Because there are a lot of financial implications of relegation, and because even there support dries up with constant mediocrity. 

How can you even seriously suggest letting teams have such levels of disparity, in your previous post? How could a team in Moncton with a $450,000 payroll ever hope to compete against a $2.5 million dollar payroll in Calgary?  As I aforementioned watch how fast a team's support will dry up with constant mediocrity. The rich will just get richer clubs and the poor poorer. Look at the state of teams in La Liga, most are in financial turmoil because Barcelona, Madrid, Atletico, and Bilbao get most of the revenue. At least there is a culture of soccer in these countries. Additionally, for people that do care about soccer, they have access to the best soccer around the world from the comfort of their homes, minus the match day experience of course, but they don't care, most have no interest in watching a mediocre Canadian League.

At least the franchise model with revenue sharing can give every team a chance to grow.

[ted]

On 2016-05-14 at 11:41 AM, Pqhbv said:

I agree, in that the only way for something like this to happen is from the bottom up. The CFL owners are not going to do that though. Additionally, as mentioned before, we lack the soccer culture, infrastructure, and teams for this. Namely, entry level semi-pro teams at the D3 level across the country. 

I'm actually more optimistic. I think we could build on a core of CFL affiliated teams and add a smattering of independents to broaden the reach and provide a more meaningful schedule. We need 8-10 teams minimum and 12 would be ideal so we know we need more than CFL involvement. Having some comparatively "deep" pockets and some back-room experience could offer some stability to the first couple of years.

Waiting to build up from D3 leagues, if it is even possible, would take ten maybe twenty years IMO and I am not willing to wait that long.

 

[Pqhbv]

I should have iterated better. What I meant to say was: "The CFL owners would rather put up franchises now than wait for the soccer culture to develop." 

I'm less optimistic about a smattering of independents arising but it could happen. I'm more optimistic that the CFL arrangement could be synergistic with other markets as well. If soccer + football works better together than apart, then we may actually see the CFL expand with soccer; Halifax, Moncton, Quebec? Of course that's well down the line from now though.

[TRM]

Following the FIFA Council meeting on 10 May 2016, the bidding process will consist of four phases:

• May 2016 – May 2017: a new strategy and consultation phase
• June 2017 – Dec 2018: enhanced phases for bid preparation
• January 2019 – February 2020: bid evaluation
• May 2020: final decision

So what if the potential owners plan is to wait and see if we get the WC2026 first? Get the governments to chip in and fund major stadiums across Canada and that will be their buy in. If we don't get the WC2026 then there will be no new facilities and no free money to help get the league going.

Would you all be willing to wait until 2020 to see if we get a league? If we don't get the WC2026 do the prospective owners walk away? Is starting the league contingent upon us getting the 2026 WC?

 

[nolbertos]

2 hours ago, TRM said:

Following the FIFA Council meeting on 10 May 2016, the bidding process will consist of four phases:

• May 2016 – May 2017: a new strategy and consultation phase
• June 2017 – Dec 2018: enhanced phases for bid preparation
• January 2019 – February 2020: bid evaluation
• May 2020: final decision

So what if the potential owners plan is to wait and see if we get the WC2026 first? Get the governments to chip in and fund major stadiums across Canada and that will be their buy in. If we don't get the WC2026 then there will be no new facilities and no free money to help get the league going.

Would you all be willing to wait until 2020 to see if we get a league? If we don't get the WC2026 do the prospective owners walk away? Is starting the league contingent upon us getting the 2026 WC?

 

I honestly believe the further we wait, the grassroots level will be stagnant and our ineffective national team will continue to suffer.  To me, the CFL owners don't have deep pockets as they claim to have and are just riding the WC bid gravy train and hoping that Mont Vic's status as president of CONCACAF will Canada the edge to win and get federal government kickbacks for upgrading or building new stadiums.  I would've hoped that the CFL owners would get USL / NASL teams while they wait to at least start getting local support and start building pyramids for player infrastructure.  The longer they wait, the higher the costs to start a league.  In 4 years time, operating costs go up, USL /NASL franchises are worth more and player salaries go up.  The CFL owners can't pay pittance salaries if they want marketable Canadian players playing in the CPL.

[ted]

12 hours ago, nolbertos said:

...the CFL owners don't have deep pockets as they claim to have...

I don't know they are claiming any such thing. What seems blindingly obvious is that as a group they have deeper pockets than any other group of potential owners in Canada.

Do you have an alternate group of potential owners that brings what they do to the table?

[Ansem]

52 minutes ago, ted said:

I don't know they are claiming any such thing. What seems blindingly obvious is that as a group they have deeper pockets than any other group of potential owners in Canada.

Do you have an alternate group of potential owners that brings what they do to the table?

Also, NHL owners are rumoured to be linked to this league. You won't get deeper pockets than that

[nolbertos]

11 hours ago, ted said:

I don't know they are claiming any such thing. What seems blindingly obvious is that as a group they have deeper pockets than any other group of potential owners in Canada.

Do you have an alternate group of potential owners that brings what they do to the table?

If they have deep pockets, then they don't think its worth risking into a CPL.  The US Owners when they created MLs knew it would bleed money the first 5 years but went ahead.  I just think they're not risktakers like thr original MLS owners and hoping that a government subsidy would make ends meet.  I'll take a wait and see approach.  The further this gets pushed out, the better it looks for the USL and NASL to make a case to expand here.

[TRM]

It's been almost 6 years since the first freeze on expansion of D2 clubs into Canada, what's another 4 years? Hey why not just never let anyone join a US based league ever again. That would solve all our problems. Then they would have to participate in the DRFL (Duane Rollins Fantasy League). They surely wouldn't just say no to an opportunity like that.

A bird in the hand is worth two DRFLs in the wishful thinking bush. Here we are almost 6 months into 2016 and we still have nothing. No press conference with 6-8 investors saying "it's a go". Nope, just more rumours and stalls and "dotting the T's and crossing the I's". Just a little bit longer, again.

 

[CDNFootballer]

2 hours ago, TRM said:

It's been almost 6 years since the first freeze on expansion of D2 clubs into Canada

What freeze are you talking about - Ottawa joined the D2 NASL a few short years ago and Hamilton would have been accepted recently as well if they didn't change plans and decide to spearhead the Canadian Premier League.

 

Or are you referring to the ban on D3 Usl standalone clubs?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

No, it was on new D2 and D4 clubs:

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/24th-minute/csa-puts-brakes-on-future-d2-sanctioning-in-us-leagues-r401

Ottawa was already in works at that point, as commitments were made to pro soccer when Ottawa's city council selected the Landsdowne revamp over Eugene Melnyk's plan for an MLS oriented SSS close to the Senators NHL arena, so they can be viewed as having been grandfathered in under the old way of doing things. Six years on and a business plan is finally being put together apparently. That's a glacial rate of progress. It's not unreasonable to question whether there would have been a significantly faster rate of progress if the CSA had simply focussed on the national team and amateur soccer and left the pro level wide open to USSF sanctioned leagues.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/melnyk-serious-about-mls-in-ottawa-1.736971

http://senators.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=481864

 

[johnyb]

On 5/17/2016 at 9:01 PM, TRM said:

Following the FIFA Council meeting on 10 May 2016, the bidding process will consist of four phases:

• May 2016 – May 2017: a new strategy and consultation phase
• June 2017 – Dec 2018: enhanced phases for bid preparation
• January 2019 – February 2020: bid evaluation
• May 2020: final decision

So what if the potential owners plan is to wait and see if we get the WC2026 first? Get the governments to chip in and fund major stadiums across Canada and that will be their buy in. If we don't get the WC2026 then there will be no new facilities and no free money to help get the league going.

Would you all be willing to wait until 2020 to see if we get a league? If we don't get the WC2026 do the prospective owners walk away? Is starting the league contingent upon us getting the 2026 WC?

 

I would rather not wait, but this seems perfectly rational. If it was my money I'd would like to wait to see how much money all 3 levels of Government would be willing to throw in first.

[Macksam]

19 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

What freeze are you talking about - Ottawa joined the D2 NASL a few short years ago and Hamilton would have been accepted recently as well if they didn't change plans and decide to spearhead the Canadian Premier League.

 

Or are you referring to the ban on D3 Usl standalone clubs?

We already determined TRM is the MVP. This entitles him to talk out of his ass and say shit that's not even true.

[TRM]

21 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

What freeze are you talking about - Ottawa joined the D2 NASL a few short years ago and Hamilton would have been accepted recently as well if they didn't change plans and decide to spearhead the Canadian Premier League.

 

Or are you referring to the ban on D3 Usl standalone clubs?

The original moratorium on D2 was from September 2010 to October 2011 with Ottawa being allowed to proceed because they were already in progress with approval from previous a CSA. Were it not for Canada having 3 MLS teams we would not have any USL Pro teams now as that moratorium has not been lifted AFAIK.

Hey Macksam, any time you can actually refute others statements with facts feel free to do so. Until then continue to mock and belittle those who actually cite accurate facts that you could look up or do you want me to send you the "Let Me Google That For You" links?

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

On 5/19/2016 at 9:21 PM, TRM said:

Hey Macksam, any time you can actually refute others statements with facts feel free to do so. Until then continue to mock and belittle those who actually cite accurate facts that you could look up or do you want me to send you the "Let Me Google That For You" links?

Do I need to start handing out time outs?

[Macksam]

On May 19, 2016 at 0:21 AM, TRM said:

Hey Macksam, any time you can actually refute others statements with facts feel free to do so. Until then continue to mock and belittle those who actually cite accurate facts that you could look up or do you want me to send you the "Let Me Google That For You" links?

I don't know man. When I read your posts, I envision a self defeating (insert Macksam's favourite choice words)...... like a couple others on here. That makes me want to limit my efforts with responding to you in any decent manner. It's not your citing of facts that's an issue, it's your uncompromising negativity. 

 

[TRM]

9 hours ago, Macksam said:

I don't know man. When I read your posts, I envision a self defeating (insert Macksam's favourite choice words)...... like a couple others on here. That makes me want to limit my efforts with responding to you in any decent manner. It's not your citing of facts that's an issue, it's your uncompromising negativity. 

 

I have heard so much for so long and seen nothing of substance that I have become rather negative on this subject. The opportunities that have been lost while waiting will only continue to mount and yes that pisses me off. The longer we wait the farther behind we fall.

When I see 6-8 rich dudes, or the their reps, at a press conference saying "it's a go" then I'll believe it. It has been 6 years since the first 1 year moratorium after which nothing happened. It has been 3 years since the Easton report since which nothing has happened. The part that really gets me is that the Easton report was doable in 2013 and yet here we are in 2016 and nothing has been done. Why?

It is hard to accept that an organization that can't even get a regional D3 setup and national "4 on the field" championship is somehow going to setup a "D1a" league to compete with MLS.

So next time someone asks the CSA or anyone else supposedly involved in the CPL a question please make it these two:

"Does the CPL plan to go head to head with the 3 MLS teams or stay out of those markets?".

"If we don't get the 2026 World Cup is the league still a go?".

Because those are the $64,000.00 questions. For the first I see neither as viable. Rather than just vague "how's it going on the CPL front" type questions ask some serious ones.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Best way to recover lost momentum, as I see it, and easiest, would be to dramatically widen the Voyageurs Cup pool for next year. And announce it asap.

That would involve asking the sponsor for more money, looking at TV even for early rounds. Basically, get anyone involved in club soccer interested in a national competition not by setting up a league, but by implementing a more open Cup.

I've been looking at the US Open Cup teams these days, with so many odd names and most I have never heard of, and there are some huge surprises there. Really prestigious teams with a proud history (check out NY PanCyprian Freedoms) proving that there is a much more solid ground to be drawn from than people might imagine. 

(Also some Canadians advancing in the Cup: Kitsap Pumas took out Sounders u-23 and are now in round 4 vs. Sacramento Republic)