Canadian Premier League

[ted]

2 hours ago, Pqhbv said:

Lack of a league in BC is a result of weak leadership in the SA of BC. It's also much less important on its own as its a small province, don't get me wrong I want to see a regional D3 out there, it may need to be a cooperative with Alberta & the Prairies; similar to the WHL.

 

OK, a valid and useful point about weak leadership almost immediately cancelled out by total ignorance (as in lack of specific knowledge - not a general state of being).

BC is not, "a small province" in any sense of the word. We are the third largest by population, Vancouver is the third largest city in Canada and we have more than our share of soccer clubs and players.

A D3 league could easily be set up within the province and adding Alberta, let alone the prairies, would just be asking for bancruptcy due to excessive travel for teams at that level.

We need a D3 in BC and another one covering Alberta, Saskatchewan and all or part of Manitoba. Adding "Maritimes" as a group and we should be good to go.

[Dub Narcotic]

The big story not being talked about here (or at least not to my knowledge: I stopped listening to the TS podcasts) is that Canadian cities weren't even mentioned as outside possibilities in the big MLS expansion push thiat came to light last month. Now, eimaybe Montagliani was really prescient that this was going to happen, in the generous interpretation, which is why he is pushing the CPL so hard.

In the less generous interpretation, Garber saw what was happening with the USL and NWSL sanctioning refusals and stopped bothering to court markets like Ottawa, which he had been doing as recently as earlier this year. If Montagliani's push for the CPL killed MLS expansion possibilities for Canada for the forseeable future, that is a very hard blow. Even in a best case scenario, it will be years, if ever, if a CPL club has access to the infrastructure and competitive level that MLS/USL/USSDA setup provides. 

[Pqhbv]

@ted    I wasn't trying to insult BC as a province as much as the SA there, I believe you're read what I said the wrong way. I am aware of its size and population, and like most of Canada it shares the same geographic population patterns which don't always work out to our benefit.

What I was getting at is, just like the way the WHL is set up, it may be too small to support its own regional D3. That's not necessarily a bad thing, the WHL has it's own BC division but Major Junior Hockey -keep in mind this is our most supported sport in the nation- keeps that division in a regional league with Cascadia and the prairie provinces for a reason. The drop off in population and population density from Ont. and Que. to the rest of the provinces is stark. Collaboration amongst them in Junior Hockey helped get everything going and I believe a similar approach can and ought to be taken with Soccer, that's all I was saying. 

Hypothetically if you took the PLSQ as a model for what a BC D3 would look like, it would extrapolate to one team in Victoria and 3 or 4 teams in the Greater Vancouver area. Even that would be better ratio of teams to population than Quebec has right now in their league. IMO that wouldn't be sufficient for a D3 to be viable in BC at present. Perhaps if the PCSL was absorbed more teams could exist and BC could have its own D3, I'm not a soccer economist insider but I'd tend to favour something similar to what already exists and thrives like the WHL.

[zen]

2 hours ago, ted said:

BC is not, "a small province" in any sense of the word. We are the third largest by population, Vancouver is the third largest city in Canada and we have more than our share of soccer clubs and players.

A D3 league could easily be set up within the province and adding Alberta, let alone the prairies, would just be asking for bancruptcy due to excessive travel for teams at that level.

We need a D3 in BC and another one covering Alberta, Saskatchewan and all or part of Manitoba. Adding "Maritimes" as a group and we should be good to go.

BC is half the size of Quebec, and under a third the size of Ontario in terms of population. You're saying that BC should have a league of its own, and that Alberta should share its league with the other Prairie provinces. But Alberta has a similar number of people to BC, by your logic they should also have their own league.

So if BC gets it's own league, so should Alberta, but then the remaining prairie provinces don't have a large enough population to warrant having D3 Leagues of their own, and a regional setup could very well be untenable. 

I don't have the answer, it's the unfortunate reality that travel could kill of any attempts at regional leagues that cover multiple provinces especially in the west, as there just isn't a population density across the entire area in question to make it viable. Maybe, BC and Alberta get their own leagues, and the remaining provinces get to participate in the PDL?

[AnOutsider]

2 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

In the less generous interpretation, Garber saw what was happening with the USL and NWSL sanctioning refusals and stopped bothering to court markets like Ottawa, which he had been doing as recently as earlier this year.

Wait, what?

[Complete Homer]

2 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

The big story not being talked about here (or at least not to my knowledge: I stopped listening to the TS podcasts) is that Canadian cities weren't even mentioned as outside possibilities in the big MLS expansion push thiat came to light last month. Now, eimaybe Montagliani was really prescient that this was going to happen, in the generous interpretation, which is why he is pushing the CPL so hard.

In the less generous interpretation, Garber saw what was happening with the USL and NWSL sanctioning refusals and stopped bothering to court markets like Ottawa, which he had been doing as recently as earlier this year. If Montagliani's push for the CPL killed MLS expansion possibilities for Canada for the forseeable future, that is a very hard blow. Even in a best case scenario, it will be years, if ever, if a CPL club has access to the infrastructure and competitive level that MLS/USL/USSDA setup provides. Ga

I really doubt that had much of an impact. First off, Canadian expansion was more than a long shot. Over a year ago Garber stated in an interview that Canadian expansion was unlikely in the near future, which in PR terms, is a pretty big no. Maybe they'd take a look if MLS expands beyond 30 teams, but even then it is a big if. Secondly, I find it hard to believe that USL/NWSL sanctioning questions would have been more than a blip on Garber's radar. If there was more money to be made in Ottawa as opposed to St. Louis and an pwnership group showing real interest, I'm sure they wouldn't have cared.

[grande]

3 hours ago, Macksam said:

If that was the case, there wouldn't be any more rumours of a Canadian league, news articles about John Mcgrane and YouTube marketing videos.

The more likely reason behind Bob's NASL snub in favour of a brand new Canadian league is that his vision for the sport is more grandiose than what the NASL can offer. If he was fine with filling stadium dates and having an 8000-10000 average attendance, there would already be an NASL team in Hamilton. However, he wants something that's on the level of his football club, something that the whole nation can look forward to, something that averages crowds in the 20000s. That's the reason he's wants to go the CPL route.

Crowds in the 20,000s? I think that's more than a little unlikely.

[Dub Narcotic]

49 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I really doubt that had much of an impact. First off, Canadian expansion was more than a long shot. Over a year ago Garber stated in an interview that Canadian expansion was unlikely in the near future, which in PR terms, is a pretty big no. Maybe they'd take a look if MLS expands beyond 30 teams, but even then it is a big if. Secondly, I find it hard to believe that USL/NWSL sanctioning questions would have been more than a blip on Garber's radar. If there was more money to be made in Ottawa as opposed to St. Louis and an pwnership group showing real interest, I'm sure they wouldn't have cared.

It's hard to say with any certainty, given the chicken-and-the-egg nature of the issue. If Montagliani wasn't so set on the CPL, would Hamilton or Ottawa have pushed harder in the last few years to get into MLS, when there was a bit more room on the expansion list? It's just been in the last two years when real pushes have come from San Antonio, St. Louis and Detroit, taking all the available expansion slots. Certainly an Ottawa or Calgary bid would have been strong competition for the likes of Sacramento.

Alternatively, maybe Montagliani had strong reason to believe that MLS would never come to Canada again and that's why he is so desperate to get the CPL off of the ground.

Personally, I think Montagliani's focus is entirely on the World Cup (once again, with no first-hand evidence), and that he sees the CPL almost entirely for its utility in helping Canada to win that bid. He's gone all-in with the sanctioning bans (which Garber would be very aware of) and CPL leaks to pet journalists to make the future of Canadian pro soccer the CPL and provincial Division 3 leagues or nothing.

This is a fairly scorched-earth strategy by Montagliani. If we have 20,000 seat stadiums filled across the country to watch CPL games in 2018 and forever more and win the 2026 WC bid then it was no doubt worth it. If what comes to pass is less than that then the loss of a possible MLS team and years of NASL and USL club play is going to hurt for a long time.

[ted]

3 hours ago, zen said:

So if BC gets it's own league, so should Alberta, but then the remaining prairie provinces don't have a large enough population to warrant having D3 Leagues of their own, and a regional setup could very well be untenable. 

That is why I suggest Alberta should work with the other prairie provinces. It makes no sense to have a D3 league that includes Victoria and Fort McMoney when there are enough communities that could support a D3 team in BC.

It is not just about population but about what makes sense for travel at that level. For example, Winnipeg would have to choose which way to go but I assume they would be better off being attached to Alberta than Ontario but someone from that area might have better information.

[rob.notenboom]

1 hour ago, ted said:

That is why I suggest Alberta should work with the other prairie provinces. It makes no sense to have a D3 league that includes Victoria and Fort McMoney when there are enough communities that could support a D3 team in BC.

It is not just about population but about what makes sense for travel at that level. For example, Winnipeg would have to choose which way to go but I assume they would be better off being attached to Alberta than Ontario but someone from that area might have better information.

I have to agree with you that BC would be better off with a D3 league on its own and the prairies join together. There are clear issues in both regions, mostly due to lack of political will. 

 

On the positive side, after recently chatting with guys from Foothills, WSA Winnipeg, and Thunder Bay Chill, they said if a team was added in SK and FC Edmonton would put in a U23 team somehow, that would be enough for them to go forward with and U23 league.

[zen]

1 hour ago, ted said:

That is why I suggest Alberta should work with the other prairie provinces. It makes no sense to have a D3 league that includes Victoria and Fort McMoney when there are enough communities that could support a D3 team in BC.

It is not just about population but about what makes sense for travel at that level. For example, Winnipeg would have to choose which way to go but I assume they would be better off being attached to Alberta than Ontario but someone from that area might have better information.

Granted it's cheaper for a team from Edmonton to travel to Winnipeg than it is for a team from Surrey, but you've now shifted the burden of travel costs from BC teams to teams from Alberta and the prairies provinces. I don't think that's fair, especially when the team teams from Saskatchewan and Manitoba would probably struggle the most with costs. That's why I'm saying the situation is difficult.

It's seriously a 13.5 hour drive from Edmonton to Winnipeg, and an 8 hour drive from Saskatoon to Winnipeg. The size of this country combined with the sparsity of population makes it very hard to have teams in the areas in between, making long road trips a huge problem for Semi-pro teams. Look at Ottawa, they are only a 4.5 hour drive away from Toronto, but they joined PLSQ instead.

[Pqhbv]

I think a conceivable way to do it would be: 4-5 teams in BC, 4-5 teams in Alberta, 4 teams across SK & MT in 3 divisions makes the most sense. top seed from each division and a wild card for a final four. You could start with 4 in each to balance the schedule or play around with how the wild card gets sorted out another way to balance it out... I just don't see any of these regions supporting their own D3's anytime soon. 

There just isn't going to be teams in Prince George, Kamloops, Fort McMurray, Lethbridge etc. from the onset. So while their might be a lot of places/communities that could possibly support teams I don't think they're going to get involved at the D3 level until these leagues start growing.     

[coppercanuck]

Travel for the western teams is a challenge.  You'll need to be creative to make it work.  WSA Winnipeg has three road trips this PDL season. 

St. Louis, Kokomo, Chicago - 3760 km return - 3 games

Thunder Bay - 700 km one way - 2 games

Des Moines - 1130 km one way - 2 games

 

Hypothetical (U23 listed with TBay, EDM, CGY, Saskatoon)

SAS, EDM, CGY - 2930 km return

TBay - 700km one way

Add Regina to the mix for another 1150 km one way and you would still be less travel (790 km to spare) than the current PDL schedule.

Getting more than one team in each city would help.

[Macksam]

8 hours ago, grande said:

Crowds in the 20,000s? I think that's more than a little unlikely.

No it actually isn't.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Guys, provincially speaking it is not a matter of who "gets" a league or "deserves" a league or how a league should work. I don't get this arguing about how to organize things "out West" (reminds me of the famous "here in Canada" comments we Westerners hear from Ontario natives). 

It is a matter of the provincial SA getting off its butt and putting something together that raises the competitive quality while being viable. A firm, sanctioned tier that would be below pro, or near pro, or very semi pro. 

IMHO, if New Brunswick can put together a nice little HP league with 6 teams, playing a 20 game season, because their SA is on the ball and organized, even drawing in players from other provinces, or properly developing their own, then all power to them. 

In world football size is nothing, quality is everything. And a bit of ambition from those in power, por favor!

 

[zen]

4 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Guys, provincially speaking it is not a matter of who "gets" a league or "deserves" a league or how a league should work. I don't get this arguing about how to organize things "out West" (reminds me of the famous "here in Canada" comments we Westerners hear from Ontario natives). 

It is a matter of the provincial SA getting off its butt and putting something together that raises the competitive quality while being viable. A firm, sanctioned tier that would be below pro, or near pro, or very semi pro. 

IMHO, if New Brunswick can put together a nice little HP league with 6 teams, playing a 20 game season, because their SA is on the ball and organized, even drawing in players from other provinces, or properly developing their own, then all power to them. 

In world football size is nothing, quality is everything. And a bit of ambition from those in power, por favor!

 

These leagues are still essentially businesses, it's important for them to recuperate costs, that's how leagues become viable. For semi-pro teams that revenue comes mainly at the gate. A league's size is a factor that affects perceived quality, and a 6 team league may give people the impression that its a mickey mouse league, in turn people might not come out to games. So the challenge is to build a league that people are attracted to, that's why the structure of the league, the number of teams etc. are important. It really is more than just provincial associations going out and introducing standards that raise the quality, if it were that simple, we would already have semi-pro leagues across the country. 

[ted]

17 hours ago, zen said:

... but you've now shifted the burden of travel costs from BC teams to teams from Alberta and the prairies provinces. I don't think that's fair, especially when the team teams from Saskatchewan and Manitoba would probably struggle the most with costs.

Now I am really confused. How does making teams travel further lower their burden of cost?!?

Teams in Saskatchewan and Manitoba will always have to deal with travel and that will factor into their decision to participate or not. IMO the option that gives them the best combination of competition and cost control is within a Prairie league. 

Now, if you think that Manitoba or Saskatchewan can put together a competitive league all on it's own (or together) then go right ahead and create it. I am not in any way suggesting they should be forbidden from doing that. I just think it would not work.

A D3 needs to be a businesslike operation that offers at least the chance that costs can be recovered from gate receipts and sponsorships.

 

21 hours ago, grande said:

Crowds in the 20,000s? I think that's more than a little unlikely.

It is more than unlikely, it is fucking delusional in the next ten years unless the MLS teams were to jump ship.

 

[Pqhbv]

My idea/proposal is based directly off of the WHL model, which the Easton Report recommended as a blueprint. It addresses the problems of travel while creating enough teams to be taken seriously in the same way the WHL does. At the end of the day it is the fault of the SA's in those regions for not getting their act together and dropping the ball. The WHL's model is best IMO, I'm not closed minded to other ideas, but I won't participate in an argument about it on these message boards that results in a pissing match... I apologize if I offended anyone. 

[ted]

And of course all this D3 talk is totally inappropriate for this thread. We have several threads for D3 talk already.

[Macksam]

10 hours ago, ted said:

It is more than unlikely, it is fucking delusional in the next ten years unless the MLS teams were to jump ship.

 

It will really ultimately depend on how each club approaches it. The MLS teams not jumping ship will definitely have an impact on those markets. However, it won't have any bearing on teams from non-MLS markets though.

[DerHoota]

 

19 hours ago, ted said:

It is more than unlikely, it is fucking delusional in the next ten years unless the MLS teams were to jump ship.

 

9 hours ago, Macksam said:

It will really ultimately depend on how each club approaches it. The MLS teams not jumping ship will definitely have an impact on those markets. However, it won't have any bearing on teams from non-MLS markets though.

I think high attendance will be a long shot in its first year, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it "delusional", especially within 5 years. It really is all about how each team goes about marketing themselves to their area and demographic. The a-league is a relatively young league but they average around 12,000 fans a game.  Western Sydney Wanderers are what now? 4 years old? and they average 16,000 fans a game. Although I don't know much about FCE's marketing, I would say they don't really do a great job marketing the organization and players. If the the winner of the CPL could play in the CONCACAF champions league that would increase exposure. Meaningless midseason friendlies would increase exposure as would the over the top superstar/journey man.
 

Attendance stats for reference

http://www.ultimatealeague.com/records.php?type=att

[Futballer]

Why Canada’s Soccer guru says having a successful professional Soccer League begins with the parents/fans.

As the Canadian Premier League plans to Launch a Professional Soccer League in Canada were given a boost or support from CSA President ,many wondered, again, how to find millions to operate and run the CPL successfully along with attracting  investors and improve the Canadian National soccer program  in the immediate and extending to long term.

The Top countries have a very different approach to Professional Soccer development – that is their core foundations to be successful financially that we here in Canada fail to recognize.

Whereas the traditional thought is ‘We need more qualified coaches, NAAH that`s not it. Rethink again, Well it’s actually all about the elites Soccer players,’ nothing could be further from the truth: Yes it’s really about trying to develop more of a Soccer culture,” with the ELITE Players at the forefront of every promotional video and team posters, game play etc. It`s the only successful way in sports to promote youth to Professional football.

“If you look at the 209 countries in Fifa only eight have won a World Cup,”  “Try to figure out what’s happening in those countries and why are they developing players at a ridiculous rate and why most countries don’t, it Sums up to not so much the coaching is better, but the culture is conducive to the developing elite Soccer players.” They the Soccer Parents and Soccer Fans alike, accepts and support the game`s ELITE players as the best the Country has to offer regardless of their Sons and Daughters competing  for the role on their National Program .

[Gopherbashi]

1 hour ago, DerHoota said:

 

I think high attendance will be a long shot in its first year, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it "delusional", especially within 5 years. It really is all about how each team goes about marketing themselves to their area and demographic. The a-league is a relatively young league but they average around 12,000 fans a game.  Western Sydney Wanderers are what now? 4 years old? and they average 16,000 fans a game. Although I don't know much about FCE's marketing, I would say they don't really do a great job marketing the organization and players. If the the winner of the CPL could play in the CONCACAF champions league that would increase exposure. Meaningless midseason friendlies would increase exposure as would the over the top superstar/journey man.
 

Attendance stats for reference

http://www.ultimatealeague.com/records.php?type=att

I tend to use OFFC for my expectations as to potential attendance for this league - they seem to be a decently-run, professional organization with a fair media presence in the city, and they typically get 5k a game.  It tends to be up to 1,000 higher for games against FCE, and having some national notoriety may get them about 1,000 on top of that.

So if I see 7,000 attending CPL games on average during it's first few seasons, it's something I'd absolutely be happy with.  Even holding steady at 5k would be a win in my mind.  Some places may be higher, some would undoubtedly be lower - but I certainly don't see OFFC quadrupling their current attendance numbers in the foreseeable future and expecting such success to be replicated across all other teams.

[ted]

6 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

So if I see 7,000 attending CPL games on average during it's first few seasons, it's something I'd absolutely be happy with.  Even holding steady at 5k would be a win in my mind.  Some places may be higher, some would undoubtedly be lower - but I certainly don't see OFFC quadrupling their current attendance numbers in the foreseeable future and expecting such success to be replicated across all other teams.

What he said!

[marauder01]

On 5/3/2016 at 6:26 AM, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

In July 2014 we were being told that Hamilton and Calgary teams were expected to enter the NASL in 2015 in anticipation of the launch of a Canadian league in 2016 that would run in parallel with the NASL.

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/index.php?/page/articles.html/_/24th-minute/csa-cfl-and-nasl-to-launch-canadian-league-r4701

CSN has confirmed that the CSA is involved in negotiations with the CFL and NASL to launch an all-Canadian league...The league would likely begin play in 2016, which (sic) the possibility of up to two teams coming in for 2015 (Hamilton and Calgary have been suggested).

That scenario was a lot more credible than the launch of a new standalone league with no links to the US D2 setup. The motivation for the CFL and the NASL (when Traffic Sports were still heavily involved) was almost certainly tied into the 2026 World Cup bid.

Also worth noting that as far back as March 2010 we were being told by the usual suspects that a pro team was imminent in Hamilton:

http://www.metronews.ca/news/2010/03/15/nasl-planning-aggressive-expansion-into-canada.html

The other name who came up in the meeting is Bob Young, owner of the CFL's Hamilton Tiger Cats. Young, who co-owns the NASL Carolina Railhawks and whose company has been contracted to re-design the NASL website, has previously expressed interest in bringing a soccer team to Hamilton and while he has declined several requests for comment, it's all but a foregone conclusion that it's his group behind the plans.

Calgary, Victoria, Quebec City and Winnipeg are the other cities tagged to be future NASL franchises. But those are less developed than the Ottawa and Hamilton bids.

At some point you have to seriously question whether Bob Young's real motivation in all of this was to use soccer at the Pan Am games as the way to get a new CFL stadium built for the Ticats.

 

As one of the people heading up the Barton St. Battalion, the supporters group in Hamilton, we've already met with members of the Ticats organization - this is not a gimmick. The league is coming.