Canadian Premier League

[deschamp86]

25 minutes ago, matty said:

So going to be doing some fan polling today at the TFC game. Am going to be asking some CPL focused questions and checking if I get similar results to the "fans would rather we win than we develop Canadian talent claim"

I suspect that most would want both, with an emphasis on winning

[matty]

8 minutes ago, deschamp86 said:

I suspect that most would want both, with an emphasis on winning

I suspect  winning will come out on top but I'm curious to see if it's clear cut like 60% want to win or if it's more complicated than Manning said.

[Rocket Robin]

On ‎4‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 2:43 PM, matty said:

Could have been worse but yea found that part odd. Kid at least has spirit

Anyways there was a brief blurb about the CPL today in the Brandon Sun.

"....The soon-to-be-announced Canadian Premier League is expected to be sanctioned by the CSA as a domestic Division 1 league...."

Not really news (no mention of sources so might just be the writer was reading on here) but I think it's the first non-soccer outlet to say the level of the league. The article is mainly about L1O and its grads.

http://www.brandonsun.com/sports/breaking-news/league-1-kicks-off-ontario-soccer-season-offering-a-chance-to-rise-up-the-ranks-420755663.html?thx=y

from the story:

Sigma FC, whose talent pipeline has produced the likes of Orlando's Cycle Larin, plays in the West Division.

...wonder how many he's scored on a bicycle kick?

Davidson must have relied on a spell checker.

Actually Neil Davidson is the best--always encouraging me...maybe without him and the late Brian Budd many years ago I would have chucked my hobby.

[matty]

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

17 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

Only caveat I'd add is that his most important source has a vested interested in shaping the narrative that CPL=minor league....

If a league has a team in Halifax playing in a 5000-7000 seat pop-up that narrative is always going to be there regardless of what Kurt Larson has to say about it. Having franchises only in secondary media markets and allowing owners from another sport to use it to provide extra scheduling dates in a similar way to something like arena football or a lacrosse team in a hockey arena rather than having soccer as the main attraction, isn't going to stack up relative to Giovinco and co at BMO Field in terms of being genuinely D1. If people chilled out on that angle and were a bit more realistic, good things could finally happen at the D2 level in Canada given the boom that is currently happening in soccer across North America.

[Ansem]

15 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

If people chilled out on that angle and were a bit more realistic, good things could finally happen at the D2 level in Canada given the boom that is currently happening in soccer across North America.

Not sure how CPL being branded Division 1 prevents the outcome to be any different. Bottom line is more clubs for Canadians

[Rheo]

As I've said I think way too much is being made of branding of levels and perception on here.  Don't get me wrong they're a factor but I don't think it's life or death as some seem to say.  Not trying to sound like a broken record but it's not going to be perfect at launch.  But the long term success of the league is going to be based on the atmosphere  presented at the games.  That's where you're going to get people to fall in love with the experience and want to be a part of it, just like what it was like for most of us on here (no proof of this other than my own and projecting it to the rest of you)

[matty]

26 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

If a league has a team in Halifax playing in a 5000-7000 seat pop-up that narrative is always going to be there regardless of what Kurt Larson has to say about it. Having franchises only in secondary media markets and allowing owners from another sport to use it to provide extra scheduling dates in a similar way to something like arena football or a lacrosse team in a hockey arena rather than having soccer as the main attraction, isn't going to stack up relative to Giovinco and co at BMO Field in terms of being genuinely D1....

I woundn't call Halifax a secondary market in Canada as it's a top tier media market on the east coast but do agree the league is going to have a minor league stigma from many because it's operating on around 1/5 of an MLS low end budget, if the salary cap is true and there are no DPs.

The stadium argument is fair but it's accepted by most that SSS are not going to happen widely.

The main thing the league has going for it in regards to league status is that the rest of Canada (outside of Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal) do not give a fuck about MLS. Like someone from Toronto can say "ugh CPL isn't really D1" and someone from Calgary could go "I don't care. I follow CPL not MLS. Why would I care about something that doesn't really have an impact on me or my community?" Major League Soccer has a very weak hold on Canada as a whole.

[Complete Homer]

38 minutes ago, Rheo said:

As I've said I think way too much is being made of branding of levels and perception on here.  Don't get me wrong they're a factor but I don't think it's life or death as some seem to say.  Not trying to sound like a broken record but it's not going to be perfect at launch.  But the long term success of the league is going to be based on the atmosphere  presented at the games.  That's where you're going to get people to fall in love with the experience and want to be a part of it, just like what it was like for most of us on here (no proof of this other than my own and projecting it to the rest of you)

I've probably said this before too, but narratives matter. When the easiest, lowest effort way to explain what CPL is to newcomers is "minor league soccer", you are going to lose people. Even a largely symbolic labeling of CPL as D1 removes its ceiling

[Ansem]

MLS was hardly a true D1 at launch and was arguably weaker than most European D3-D4 leagues. However, they worked themselves up and gave themselves a chance to grow to the point of being considered a "Major League" domestically. Americans could care less about soccer as it was, somewhat still is...imagine if they launched by branding themselves as Division 3? None sense

Going with BBTB logic, MLS should have branded themselves D3 at the time and whenever I see that kind of logic, I try to stay calm and tell myself that some people don't understand branding and marketing. It took a lot of capital, a decade of bleeding money and relentless marketing to grow MLS to what it is today.

MLS showed the path to replicate this in Canada. The fact that finally Canadian Investors are willing to go through the same process and go through the long walk in the desert for the long term gains should be celebrated. Even better, we can use the MLS blueprint to accelerate the process on using what worked, avoiding what didn't work and come up with creative solutions to make the growing pain smoother than what MLS investors had to go through. Haven't we heard the right things?

• Lots of capital (Investors net worth in the billions)
• Fully prepared to lose money for a long time
• Being smart in terms of branding and marketing (Original 6, Launch right after Russia 2018, using some of the CFL marketing machine, Division 1, etc...)

The whole talk about CPL looking like a minor league because we won't have SSS that can pack over 25k is a none starter. All those Scandinavian, some European, South American, Asians and African leagues that have stadiums similar or more modest than ours should be considered minor league I guess. I don't know but playing in an empty overgrown NFL stadium is way worse if you ask me and it's still a work in progress for MLS as we speak.

Last I checked, humans aren't a warriors race with bottomless potential like in Japanese anime, we peak, we decline. MLS narrowed the gap with Europe 2nd tier leagues overtime the same way Americans and Europeans did in hockey compared to us. CPL will be no different. Without pretending that in 30 years it will be just as good or better than the rest, we will narrow the gap sooner rather than later with our continental counterparts so that people will view their own league as a top CONCACAF League. No French fans actually believes Ligue 1 to be superior to la Liga, yet, there's no doubt that Ligue 1 is a top Euro league and that French team can compete in Europe.

Let's give ourselves the time and the owners all the necessary tools to grow rapidly.

This Canadian inferiority complex is so annoying.

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

...MLS showed the path to replicate this in Canada. The fact that finally Canadian Investors are willing to go through the same process...

MLS is in Canada with three local Canadian investor/operators, isn't going to go away and effectively has a lock on the three media markets catering to about half of the population. What's alleged to be happening soon, but I suspect is being pushed to the point of going public somewhat prematurely to satisfy Victor Montagliani's ego as much as anything else, is more a case of replicating/duplicating the latter day version of the NASL.

[Rheo]

It's a matter of semantics.  CPL will be division 1 in Canada.  MLS will be division 1 in US with Canadian teams.  Realistically the level of play will be well below the MLS (presently) at launch and for the forseeable future.  But it will still be division 1 soccer.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

MLS is in Canada with three local Canadian investor/operators, isn't going to go away and effectively has a lock on the three media markets catering to about half of the population. What's alleged to be happening soon, but I suspect is being pushed to the point of going public somewhat prematurely to satisfy Victor Montagliani's ego as much as anything else, is more a case of replicating/duplicating the latter day version of the NASL.

Those 3 markets aren't locked to those MLS clubs. They are big enough for at least 2 clubs

You won't get a better opportunity to launch a soccer league in a somewhat non-traditional market than immediately after a World Cup when the whole country will be talking about soccer. That's actually a missed opportunity by MLS that the CSA and CPL won't let pass, even if it means a shorten season with only 6 teams.

Finally, it's a smart move to launch with 6. The term "Original Six" has a very powerful Canadian meaning, which I expect the league to heavily rely on when starting the league. Even people that are casual fans of soccer, will want to check out the new original six. I'm expecting the 2019 full season to have (hopefully) between 8-10 teams with markets bidding for a franchise.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

7 minutes ago, Rheo said:

It's a matter of semantics...

Largely agree, but where it moves beyond that is the issue of who gets to be regarded as the national champion of Canada on an annual basis. As long as it is the team that lifts the Voyageurs Cup based on a cup competition involving the MLS teams then the old adage about Nero appointing his horse as a senator comes to mind where CPL is concerned.

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Largely agree, but where it moves beyond that is the issue of who gets to be regarded as the national champion of Canada on an annual basis. As long as it is the team that lifts the Voyageurs Cup based on a cup competition involving the MLS teams then the old adage about Nero appointing his horse as a senator comes to mind where CPL is concerned.

That's assuming people actually watches the V Cup. Just like in the US, I expect the CPL Cup to have way more viewership and media attention

[matty]

Didn't this fanbase gift the vcup to the csa? Couldn't we tell them "ok the trophy to the cpl champ". I don't think we should but couldn't we?

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, matty said:

Didn't this fanbase gift the vcup to the csa? Couldn't we tell them "ok the trophy to the cpl champ". I don't think we should but couldn't we?

Most likely, the CPL will come up with their own cup

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

I think this has come up before.  But regarding the potential for pro/rel at some point down the road, I've been thinking about it.

What about something like this.

The original 8-10 franchises are locked in for the foreseeable future(30 years)

After these 8-10 are more or less established, teams enter either PLSQ(probably include maritime clubs in here), L1O, or a hopefully soon to be launched D2 in the west(Sask and west - manitoba seems like they would fit better in L1O almost)

The champions of PLSQ,L1O and L1W and maybe the highest 2nd place team across the three leagues(assuming even number of games, etc, otherwise you could go with points % or maybe do a round robin, but wouldn't be ideal) do a knockout round and the champion of that is promoted to CPL(the first year it's implemented)

The next year, same thing, if the previously promoted team finishes in the bottom half of CPL, they must playoff against the champion from the L1s to keep or lose their spot in CPL.  

If the previously promoted team finishes in the top half of CPL, there is no opportunity for promotion, and the window is said to be closed for the L1 teams for that year.

The travel is obviously a huge hinderance for the L1 teams moving up to CPL, so some of this may have to be supplemented by the CPL teams through revenue sharing.  PROMOTED L1 teams only can purchase a permanent spot in CPL once they are financially viable(pay expansion fee to help league grow).  If the league ever gets to say 15-20 teams that have bought in, institute pro/rel.  The original 15-20 are given a parachute fund should they be relegated, but still must play their way back in. 

It's not a perfect solution, but it's the most feasible one I can think of that allows for upward mobility but also insulates the founding clubs that the league is financially based upon.

Thoughts?

@Complete Homer @matty @BringBackTheBlizzard @Rheo @Ansem

[baulderdash77]

A full table is 20 teams.  Until they get there why relegate anyone?

[grasshopper1917]

2 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

A full table is 20 teams.  Until they get there why relegate anyone?

Yea I tend to agree I don't think we will have enough clubs to worry about relegation. I mean if there is a great club in a weird spot drawing big numbers we could look at taking them into the league. I think if a club is doing poorly and drawing blies their relegation will be folding  lol

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

24 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

Yea I tend to agree I don't think we will have enough clubs to worry about relegation. I mean if there is a great club in a weird spot drawing big numbers we could look at taking them into the league. I think if a club is doing poorly and drawing blies their relegation will be folding  lol

 

28 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

A full table is 20 teams.  Until they get there why relegate anyone?

Because some teams might not be able to afford to stay up for a long time, but staying up for a year could do wonders for a L1O club.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

plus, saying we have a form of pro/rel adds a level of authenticity that MLS doesn't have.

[grasshopper1917]

Just now, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

 

Because some teams might not be able to afford to stay up for a long time, but staying up for a year could do wonders for a L1O club.

A fair point - on the other hand it could also mean financial ruin for a club demoted. North American sport has no promotion/relegation tradition. I think it is difficult enough getting a single professional league up and running let alone throwing a wrench like pro/rel in the mix.

BTW I dont want to sound like im dumping on your idea. Its not like im saying in know for sure what the future will hold but I cant see pro/rel being a viable options for a long long time. Thats not to say I don't like your idea - just cant see it working in the forseeable future.

[Complete Homer]

Pro/rel is the solution to a problem that arises organically. We don't need to force it. If the day legitimately comes when CPL gets crowded and there are teams below willing to spend, then it might get explored (if some way of incorporating it within a closed system is found...)

That said, I think it would take a minor miracle to get CPL to that size

[longlugan]

5 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

MLS is in Canada with three local Canadian investor/operators, isn't going to go away and effectively has a lock on the three media markets catering to about half of the population. What's alleged to be happening soon, but I suspect is being pushed to the point of going public somewhat prematurely to satisfy Victor Montagliani's ego as much as anything else, is more a case of replicating/duplicating the latter day version of the NASL.

Did you not just read the post above your's? Why are you still being such a humongous dick? I would put you on ignore here but that would prevent me from calling you a dick in the near future since it's a 1000% likelihood that you'll make another dickish remark.