Canadian Premier League

[Dub Narcotic]

Four to six years ago, MLS/USSF/CSA recognized that the bigger gap in youth development in North America was U-23, because the players coming out of the academies (USSDA ends at U-18) generally weren't and aren't ready for MLS minutes and NCAA/PDL/U-sport was and is an imperfect system.

The solution was the USL partnership, with all teams required to affiliate in some manner with a USL club. This would allow the MLS teams to get their homegrown signings minutes while stabilizing the USL with solid ownership groups, operational expertise and a higher quality of player.

This has worked exceptionally. It's rare now for an academy or university prospect to make the jump to the first team without at least some time at USL level. The USL teams also tend to cast a wide net to find prospects outside the system, which is very important given the very small ratio of clubs to people in North America.

TFC has spent millions of dollars on TFC2, the vast majority of which is on Canadian players. To criticize them for not developing 'pure' academy prospects exclusively is just ridiculous. No club in the world does that and continuous scouting of youth players is more important than incremental development of the players you do have given the wide variability of youth development progress. TFC2 deserves just as much credit for Raheem Edwards, Jay Chapman,Malik Johnson and the rest as anyone.

BTW, if you see someone post a seven game sample as definitive proof of anything, you can safely ignore their contributions going forward. Toronto was fourth last year In overall homegrown minutes (https://www.socceramerica.com/article/70461/by-the-numbers-2016-mls-homegrown-players.html) and has been in the top three or four in that category since they came in the league. 

[Ansem]

I just think that Americans shouldn't count as domestics on Canadian clubs, only Canadians. That would force those 3 to sign AND play more Canadians that are now stuck and wasting their potentials in USL...where no international scouts doesn't even bothers to look. It's just a theory, but I think that scouts inquiring for USL players know that the main clubs asks for too much in comparison to trying to acquire a L1O player who shows promise.

The 3 clubs does help with development at youth level, but they also do a disservice to Canadian Soccer by not starting more of them and keeping the on the pitch to allow them to learn, make mistakes and develop at a higher level. If you're Canadian, you kind of know that you're benched after doing 1 mistake, while Americans domestics might not have as big of a pressure than a Canadian kid.

CPL is needed for that. Somewhere where they can play, make mistakes, learn and mature. It's a bit of an Irony that the MLS clubs are developmental paths for our kids but CPL is where they will most likely get to mature into pros. So MLS farms and CPL pro? 

[Complete Homer]

1 hour ago, shermanator said:

I think this same lesson can be seen with the Fury as we speak. Moving to USL and cutting their academy to save money, it doesn't seem to me like ownership is fully committed to the cause.

The way the academy situation was apparently presented to fans at some sort of club-supporters meeting (heating this second hand) was that the structure of the academy was too flawed and needed to be torn down and replaced when the team had sorted it's future out (they were still in the NASL). 

Whether this was just PR or truthful, who knows, but there might be a more to the story in the end

[Levi Oakey]

4 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

BTW, if you see someone post a seven game sample as definitive proof of anything, you can safely ignore their contributions going forward. Toronto was fourth last year In overall homegrown minutes (https://www.socceramerica.com/article/70461/by-the-numbers-2016-mls-homegrown-players.html) and has been in the top three or four in that category since they came in the league. 

Hey Dub. You are a valuable part of this community. Love your contributions. Sadly, in 2016 the top Homegrown signing for TFC? Can you guess who it was?



MARKY DELGADO. That's right, Chiva's homegrown player. http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/http%3A//pressbox.mlssoccer.com/homegrownplayers. Jordan Hamilton was on loan overseas. Quillian Roberts couldn't buy a game. Manella was basically released before the season ended. Ashtone had typical Ashtone minutes. Which left Jay Chapman, the best of the 2016/2015 class that actually played for TFC as a homegrown of TFC. Which I have already pointed to as strange as he a) played for SC Toronto in the CSL in 2012 and b ) was effectively let go by TFC to play college ball. To expand on this point, I personally know that Jay was offered a contract from Stoke City in 2014. He spent 2 weeks away from KW United touring British clubs and Stoke wasn't the only one that offered a contract. Jay chose Toronto FC because it was closer to home and he loved the club. More evidence that TFC, unintentionally may be harming the development of Canadian kids. Jay very well could have been coached by Tony Pulis and now Mark Hughes. Instead he spent another year in the NCAA and then went to Toronto. I am personally not confident that he has been coached and managed well enough since that move.

Soccer America does it's ratings off of Homegrown Players that an MLS team played. The link I showed shows the Homegrown Players from an MLS team that have played. If you look closely at Soccer America rankings you will see that TFC had no parentheses in it's name since no TFC player has played on any other MLS teams.

Your right though, the theory is that USL will resolve this crisis. In 2012 Grantland released a great article detailing the issues and a need for legit  reserve league (http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-future-of-u-s-soccer-homegrown-players/). So far though the USL has not proven to be the boom people hoped it was. Wages are incredibly low and despite the more competitive games the constant changing of squads (particularly the way TFC let's Jason et al. know about changes to the squad often the day of a game) leads to most players feeling underappreciated and unfavoured. Like the British reserve leagues coaches in the USL affiliates simply can't let a high profile player sit while available so even though a young player may be having a blinder of a season, if the Pro clubs make one of their players available they are immediately relegated. This has happened frequently and is a problem at the highest in the world.

4 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

TFC has spent millions of dollars on TFC2, the vast majority of which is on Canadian players. To criticize them for not developing 'pure' academy prospects exclusively is just ridiculous. No club in the world does that and continuous scouting of youth players is more important than incremental development of the players you do have given the wide variability of youth development progress. 

And this is my issue with what has happened with the MLS clubs, unintentionally they have monopolized development specifically because of the money they have thrust into the system. I don't know why we shouldn't be talking about critcizing them. Since the start of MLS in 2007 we have dropped to our lowest FIFA ranking ever. We had two great years, 2009 and 2012. Where we were 59 and 64 respectively. Other than that we were in the bottom percentile of rankings since 2007. 

http://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/associations/association=can/men/index.html

4 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

TFC2 deserves just as much credit for Raheem Edwards, Jay Chapman,Malik Johnson and the rest as anyone.

Sorry, do you know these players? Malik sure, although I think he is planning to go the NCAA route now because TFC hasn't given him a viable option to the first team, but Raheem Edwards played for Erin Mills till he was 18. Then he played for Sheridan where Molham Babouli suggested he try out for TFC. Jay Chapman I have already covered. He was dropped by TFC and was resigned by them.

The truth is we need a democratization of professional player development in this country, which is why I am excited for the CPL. Entrusting the current three MLS teams has hurt our development pathways by monopolizing development and making it increasingly difficult for broad scouting, and for the non-linear player to develop. The MLS teams did not intend to cause the issues they did, and they do have positive aspects, but sadly it exacerbated the professional development issues that we had in this country. It's time for the Canadian MLS clubs to allow more development avenues. We all know they can still choose from those pathways and will still be highly regarded clubs but when some of the best talent out of Toronto is increasingly not taking the MLS pathway (Adonijah Reid, Cyle Larin, Chris Nanco, Richie Laryea, Michael Petrasso, etc.s), discussions need to be had. 

[Ansem]

7 hours ago, shermanator said:

I think this same lesson can be seen with the Fury as we speak. Moving to USL and cutting their academy to save money, it doesn't seem to me like ownership is fully committed to the cause.

Hence why I keep thinking that it's not impossible that the Ottawa team won't be the Fury. 

As of now, Ottawa-Gatineau is the biggest market in population in Canada outside of the big 3. So logically, it should be attracting investors, more so than other smaller markets in Canada 

[Kent]

11 hours ago, Ansem said:

Hence why I keep thinking that it's not impossible that the Ottawa team won't be the Fury. 

As of now, Ottawa-Gatineau is the biggest market in population in Canada outside of the big 3. So logically, it should be attracting investors, more so than other smaller markets in Canada 

Calgary actually surpassed Ottawa in the 2016 census, but that doesn't invalidate your point that it's possible a non-Fury team could emerge in the CPL.

[Gopherbashi]

13 minutes ago, Kent said:

Calgary actually surpassed Ottawa in the 2016 census, but that doesn't invalidate your point that it's possible a non-Fury team could emerge in the CPL.

I would hate that, honestly.  As much as it would be good for the CPL, further cannibalizing existing teams in this manner would be a shitty thing for Canadian soccer. 

[dyslexic nam]

12 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

I would hate that, honestly.  As much as it would be good for the CPL, further cannibalizing existing teams in this manner would be a shitty thing for Canadian soccer. 

I think it would suck in the short term, but for me the most important thing in the long term is to establish the best clubs under the best ownership groups in the right markets.  That has to be the horizon vision for CPL success.  And if that means sacrificing the Fury, or FCEd, on the altar of a strong new national league by involving alternate owners in those cities, it could ultimately be the right decision. 

No matter how excited one is about CPL, it is safe to say that there will likely be some lean years at the outset and some "tough sleddin" before it matures into a strong stable league.  Clubs that are willing to eliminate their developmental pathways, or who are seemingly married to the success of a USSF-sanctioned league (and I am clearly cherry picking the examples), may or may not be the right choice for that kind of undertaking.

Ultimately, I would love to see both teams migrate (or help launch) the CPL.  But the bottom line for me is that if the Fury or FCEd end up being excluded from CPL in lieu of different ownership groups in those markets, I will trust that league operators are making those tough decisions with good reason.

[C2SKI]

19 hours ago, Levi Oakey said:

I think the MLS teams exacerbated the problem. And the Canadian Premier League might be the fix.

Here is a theory. The MLS teams in Canada came in with big money and big aspirations. That big money and larger aspirations led to most talent ending up at either TFC, VWFC, or IMFC. Scouts from foreign teams now focused on scouting directly from the MLS teams and the top talent is now all being focused into those three streams. The education they are getting there is not as good as the Euro education that they used to get, but TFC has enough money to hold on to the players, unlike the amateur clubs before it. But the education process is too focused and still not professional enough (this might change over time). Homegrown players are still not a big deal in MLS. For an example TFC and the Impact are near the bottom of the HGP table: 

Vancouver is ranked really highly because of Davies. The Canadian MLS teams are still struggling to get the development part right. During this period, I think we have hurt Canadian player development.

I imagine Froese and Adekugbe would have improved Vancouver's numbers if they weren't desperate for Europe.

[Rheo]

43 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

I would hate that, honestly.  As much as it would be good for the CPL, further cannibalizing existing teams in this manner would be a shitty thing for Canadian soccer. 

Agreed.  Don't kill what is already existing (Div 2).  Build the league up so that they want to become a part of it.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Gopherbashi said:

I would hate that, honestly.  As much as it would be good for the CPL, further cannibalizing existing teams in this manner would be a shitty thing for Canadian soccer. 

The Fury doesn't have to fold but they could be forced into a smaller venue somewhere else in the region. It's up to them but if they don't seize the occasion and let someone else put a team in Ottawa, they won't survive competing with CPL. Gatineau or Kingston maybe?

[Ansem]

47 minutes ago, Rheo said:

Agreed.  Don't kill what is already existing (Div 2).  Build the league up so that they want to become a part of it.

I hope they join at start but for the good of the league, shutting yourself out of that market just so the Fury makes up their mind isn't for the good of the league. CPL needs Ottawa sooner rather than later.

[Kent]

2 hours ago, C2SKI said:

I imagine Froese and Adekugbe would have improved Vancouver's numbers if they weren't desperate for Europe.

Last season Froese played 150 minutes and Adekugbe played 111 minutes. It's possible they wouldn't be so desperate for Europe if they had more playing time in Vancouver.

[C2SKI]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Last season Froese played 150 minutes and Adekugbe played 111 minutes. It's possible they wouldn't be so desperate for Europe if they had more playing time in Vancouver.

Yes, that's certainly possible. But the point was simply that it's unfair to judge Vancouver on their player development without considering the fact that they lost, arguably, their 2 most MLS ready homegrowns before the season kicked off. Besides, if it was playing time they were after, I'm not sure they made the right choices. This season they have a combined total of 90 league minutes between them.

[Levi Oakey]

19 minutes ago, C2SKI said:

Yes, that's certainly possible. But the point was simply that it's unfair to judge Vancouver on their player development without considering the fact that they lost, arguably, their 2 most MLS ready homegrowns before the season kicked off. Besides, if it was playing time they were after, I'm not sure they made the right choices. This season they have a combined total of 90 league minutes between them.

Uh, https://www.transfermarkt.com/kianz-froese/leistungsdaten/spieler/294701

Froese has played 580 minutes including starting the last three games and scoring 4 goals.

[C2SKI]

20 minutes ago, Levi Oakey said:

Uh, https://www.transfermarkt.com/kianz-froese/leistungsdaten/spieler/294701

Froese has played 580 minutes including starting the last three games and scoring 4 goals.

From what I gather elsewhere, it's actually 5 starts, and 5 goals for Kianz! Regardless, the original criteria seemed to be first team, league minutes, so I used the same. Froese has yet to even see the bench for Düsseldorf's first teams, but I hope his recent run of form changes that. He wasn't really short on reserve team minutes, or minutes with the first team in other competitions, while he was in Vancouver either. Sam has been unlucky with injuries.

[matty]

4 hours ago, Ansem said:

The Fury doesn't have to fold but they could be forced into a smaller venue somewhere else in the region.

I don't think they could. OSEG is in control of the stadium so they do have a say on the matter.

[matty]

https://www.backyardsports.ca/2017/04/26/shaping-the-future-by-embracing-the-past-through-sport/

1) S|E|A has secured for Halifax, the opportunity to have a team in a new Canadian national soccer league. This team is conditional on us securing a downtown venue with an appropriate grass playing surface and seating for 5,000-7,000 fans.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

8 minutes ago, matty said:

https://www.backyardsports.ca/2017/04/26/shaping-the-future-by-embracing-the-past-through-sport/

1) S|E|A has secured for Halifax, the opportunity to have a team in a new Canadian national soccer league. This team is conditional on us securing a downtown venue with an appropriate grass playing surface and seating for 5,000-7,000 fans.

you forgot the obligatory "Boom Sources confirm"

[matty]

1 minute ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

you forgot the obligatory "Boom Sources confirm"

Alright I'll summarise: BOOM Sources confirm SEA wanna build a nice temp stadium at the Wanderer's Grounds. BOOM The CPL might be dependant on this stadium happening. BOOM All Halifax Voyageurs reach out to your city councillors and let them know you want a stadium BOOM

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

^much better

[Rheo]

Recap of the TFC 2 and Fury game with comments from USL president on the CPL.  Nothing earth shattering but putting it out there.

https://thelinknewspaper.ca/article/ottawa-fury-fc-toronto-fc-ii-create-new-rivalry-in-the-usl

[matty]

2 minutes ago, Rheo said:

Recap of the TFC 2 and Fury game with comments from USL president on the CPL.  Nothing earth shattering but putting it out there.

https://thelinknewspaper.ca/article/ottawa-fury-fc-toronto-fc-ii-create-new-rivalry-in-the-usl

Nice to see him not throwing shade at it the way Manning did.

[Macksam]

2 hours ago, matty said:

Nice to see him not throwing shade at it the way Manning did.

He's excited and obviously planting the seeds to get USL Pro to become the CPL's division 2 and official feeder league like it currently is for MLS.

[matty]

2 hours ago, Macksam said:

He's excited and obviously planting the seeds to get USL Pro to become the CPL's division 2 and official feeder league like it currently is for MLS.

That actually seems plausible what with the new D3