Canadian Premier League

[Kent]

1 hour ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

Clearly no one actually read my post, just saw pro/rel and dismissed it.  Cool.

And yeah @ted you're probably right, it just sucks to have to make that choice

I almost stopped reading after I saw the words "pro/rel", but I can almost never stop myself from reading anything that's posted on this thread.

To be brutally honest, I don't like your idea. I respect what you are trying to do, but I think instead of making everyone happy, it's the worst of both worlds. In your system you have teams in a lower league fighting for promotion without knowing if they will actually have any chance at promotion at the end of the year (if the L1 team finishes top half). On the other end you have teams that are immune to relegation because they have effectively bought immunity, and some that aren't immune. So you have situations where, say there are 12 teams in the CPL. The 9th place team gets relegated (or put in the pro/rel playoff) while the 10th, 11th, and 12th place teams are sitting pretty. That's bad optics in my opinion. Especially since you leave open the idea of teams that have been promoted to essentially buy their way into immunity, we might as well do what MLS does. Have it strictly being expansion bids based, and the league can cherry pick any lower division teams that are doing well (either competitively, commercially, or both).

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

lol I can take being disagreed with, but ignored/dismissed just won't do

fair enough

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

Can't really blame me for looking for a "Canadian Solution" can you?

 

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

Clearly no one actually read my post, just saw pro/rel and dismissed it.  Cool.

And yeah @ted you're probably right, it just sucks to have to make that choice

This can be revisited once CPL gets to their 16 teams club targets and if they are stable.

Classic Pro/rel will not happen in Canada.

However, a variation of it could be used, but CPL would have to control that Tier 2 a "CPL II" which would expand the reach of "CPL brand" into medium-size markets like Sherbrooke, Kingston, Oshawa, Barrie, St.Catharines, Kelowna, Lethbridge...etc that are far away to not compete with the main CPL teams.

The pro/rel formula varies around the world and what could work (post 2030s) would be the creation of 2 spots for D2 to promote in. Something like this:

• CPL teams would never relegate.
• Year One: CPL II Eastern and Western Champions promotes to CPL (conferences to cut down Tier 2 travel coasts)
• Year two: CPL II New Eastern and Western Champions enters in a "playoffs series" against the CPL II clubs who got promoted in year one.
• Regardless of a Tier 2 team's ranking in CPL, they must always defend their CPL spot against the Tier 2 champions
• Tier 2 National champion (east vs west playoff) enters V Cup at the same time as MLS and CPL Tier 1 teams
• D3 should stay out of it

There are advantages to do a creative variation of pro/rel down the road. But I must agree with the others, "classical pro/rel" will never happen in Canada.

Relegation playoffs are exciting to watch in Europe

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

 

There are advantages to do a creative variation of pro/rel down the road. But I must agree with the others, "classical pro/rel" will never happen in Canada.

I agree.  Said it probably 50 times in this thread alone.

your outline is pretty similar to the one I was suggesting, really.

Hence my annoyance when buzzards started swooping in and saying ohhh are we having the pro/rel talk again.

Not exactly.

I debated saying they should always defend their place as well.  Thats another option that makes sense, the only reason I said they should haven't to if they finish in the top half was that it seems a little wrong to not reward them for a good season.  

I would be on board for your plan though, 100%

thanks for taking my post seriously

[Ansem]

No problem. Got to keep your product fresh to keep people interested and attract new fans right?

It's fascinating how much attention is given to clubs risking relegation like Swansea and Sunderland. Also, I never miss the first home game of a newly promoted club in EPL so I can see them host a Chelsea or Man U in a 10k stadium. It's part of the mystic. It's a great way to get people hook to your main product.

I'm thinking people would give a decent support to Sherbrooke, Quebec but if they get promoted and host teams like Quebec City, Montreal and Toronto, they will go and get more hooked than they were originally. Even after relegation, not only would they keep their support in a Sherbrooke club, they'd be more inclined to watch CPL on TV since they saw those teams in their backyards.

It definitely has its pros, but it must make fiscal and structural sense.

The main reason it won't fly in the US is because the MLS clubs put way too much money and risk in the league to have NASL and USL clubs be given that kind of exposure and stage for next to nothing. Since we don't have that European soccer culture, there's nothing in it for those owners to literally give a hand to a league that rivals some of their clubs in their own territory. They would need to launch an MLS 2 but they seem obsessed at expanding to prove they belong with the other top leagues. That's an American League made for Americans. Pro/Rel will never happen there.

That's the reason why the top league like CPL would need to start the Tier 2 and hold all the cards, otherwise, can't happen.

[DannyFromToronto23]

20 minutes ago, Ansem said:

No problem. Got to keep your product fresh to keep people interested and attract new fans right?

It's fascinating how much attention is given to clubs risking relegation like Swansea and Sunderland. Also, I never miss the first home game of a newly promoted club in EPL so I can see them host a Chelsea or Man U in a 10k stadium. It's part of the mystic. It's a great way to get people hook to your main product.

I'm thinking people would give a decent support to Sherbrooke, Quebec but if they get promoted and host teams like Quebec City, Montreal and Toronto, they will go and get more hooked than they were originally. Even after relegation, not only would they keep their support in a Sherbrooke club, they'd be more inclined to watch CPL on TV since they saw those teams in their backyards.

It definitely has its pros, but it must make fiscal and structural sense.

The main reason it won't fly in the US is because the MLS clubs put way too much money and risk in the league to have NASL and USL clubs be given that kind of exposure and stage for next to nothing. Since we don't have that European soccer culture, there's nothing in it for those owners to literally give a hand to a league that rivals some of their clubs in their own territory. They would need to launch an MLS 2 but they seem obsessed at expanding to prove they belong with the other top leagues. That's an American League made for Americans. Pro/Rel will never happen there.

That's the reason why the top league like CPL would need to start the Tier 2 and hold all the cards, otherwise, can't happen.

Agree 2nd division would be good 

[Rheo]

Sportsnet's pod interviews Paul Stalteri and says there is CPL talk.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/paul-stalteri-canada-tottenham-mls-cpl/

[matty]

3 hours ago, ted said:

Yeah, you missed my point. Halifax is crucial but is still a big fish in a small pond. I'm just saying it cannot be ranked with the big three in this sense. It is a secondary market, "from a Canadian media perspective."

 

Is calgary a major media market in canada?

The big 3 do not determine what makes a major media market.

[ted]

17 minutes ago, matty said:

Is calgary a major media market in canada?

The big 3 do not determine what makes a major media market.

Jeebus Matty, stop moving the goalposts! Tor/Van/Mtl are the primary markets. That doesn't fucking make Halifax or Calgary irrelevant it just makes them "Secondary" in the pecking order of Canadian media markets.

At this point I don't even know what you are trying to prove?!? Should Halifax have a team?

Yep.

What the fuck more do you want?

[grasshopper1917]

3 hours ago, ted said:

Yeah, you missed my point. Halifax is crucial but is still a big fish in a small pond. I'm just saying it cannot be ranked with the big three in this sense. It is a secondary market, "from a Canadian media perspective."

 

Halifax is the population center and I would suppose the media center for the Maritimes which has a population of about 1.8 million people. Add in Newfoundland and that would bring us up to about 2.3 million. I would say that is of course smaller then the 'Big 3'. Although it is a decent size.

I mean we cant kid ourselves Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal are the big 3 centers in Canada with Toronto being king of Canada. To me basically Halifax is to the Maritimes what Winnipeg is to Manitoba. 

Although I think we are making too much of media markets and the like. The way we produce and consume media is changing rapidly. I think the goal is to have clubs in cities where people want to follow the team and will come out to the matches. Yea Toronto is the king of 'media  markets' but does it matter if 400 people are in the stands every game? On the other hand Halifax may be a smaller media market but who cares if they are packing a 5000 seat stadium weekly. 

At least thats the way I see it

 

[Kent]

4 hours ago, Ansem said:

This can be revisited once CPL gets to their 16 teams club targets and if they are stable.

Classic Pro/rel will not happen in Canada.

However, a variation of it could be used, but CPL would have to control that Tier 2 a "CPL II" which would expand the reach of "CPL brand" into medium-size markets like Sherbrooke, Kingston, Oshawa, Barrie, St.Catharines, Kelowna, Lethbridge...etc that are far away to not compete with the main CPL teams.

The pro/rel formula varies around the world and what could work (post 2030s) would be the creation of 2 spots for D2 to promote in. Something like this:

• CPL teams would never relegate.
• Year One: CPL II Eastern and Western Champions promotes to CPL (conferences to cut down Tier 2 travel coasts)
• Year two: CPL II New Eastern and Western Champions enters in a "playoffs series" against the CPL II clubs who got promoted in year one.
• Regardless of a Tier 2 team's ranking in CPL, they must always defend their CPL spot against the Tier 2 champions
• Tier 2 National champion (east vs west playoff) enters V Cup at the same time as MLS and CPL Tier 1 teams
• D3 should stay out of it

There are advantages to do a creative variation of pro/rel down the road. But I must agree with the others, "classical pro/rel" will never happen in Canada.

Relegation playoffs are exciting to watch in Europe

Apologies for practically repeating myself, but it seems to me that forcing the CPL visitor (that's what a promoted team is being treated as in your plan) makes their season just an exhibition tournament. 30ish meaningless games followed by the only 2 games that matter in the pro/rel playoff. Your idea leaves open the possibility of things happening like a team becoming a staple in the CPL, playing in it for a dozen years and doing well, and having a ritual playoff just to stay in the league every season. You could have the CPL champs get relegated because of a single stupid play or call that results in a red card in their pro/rel playoff. You could have a team that could be very capable of playing in the CPL, unable to get promoted because although they are better than a handful of teams in CPL, they aren't as good as the only relegation eligible team. You could have a dumpster fire of a team avoid relegation just because they have squatters rights.

I would love it if we could one day have pro/rel, but I would rather not have any than to have this system.

The only place I think we could see pro/rel in the foreseeable future in Canada is with L1O. If that league is able to survive and keep expanding, we could see that within the next dozen years. The impact wouldn't be nearly as pronounced, but that's part of the reason why it's possible.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

3 hours ago, matty said:

Is calgary a major media market in canada?

The big 3 do not determine what makes a major media market.

 

 

6 hours ago, ted said:

Yeah, you missed my point. Halifax is crucial but is still a big fish in a small pond. I'm just saying it cannot be ranked with the big three in this sense. It is a secondary market, "from a Canadian media perspective."

 

this whole thread boils down to semantics, honestly.

obviously the big three are the big three.  No one is disputing that.  then there are a bunch of decently sized markets that you could make the case are major markets by Canadian standards.  Certainly we can agree they are markets that could potentially support a team.  What difference does it make whether we call them major or secondary.  they are what they are and they are where the CPL is going to go.

 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

49 minutes ago, Kent said:

Apologies for practically repeating myself, but it seems to me that forcing the CPL visitor (that's what a promoted team is being treated as in your plan) makes their season just an exhibition tournament. 30ish meaningless games followed by the only 2 games that matter in the pro/rel playoff. Your idea leaves open the possibility of things happening like a team becoming a staple in the CPL, playing in it for a dozen years and doing well, and having a ritual playoff just to stay in the league every season. You could have the CPL champs get relegated because of a single stupid play or call that results in a red card in their pro/rel playoff. You could have a team that could be very capable of playing in the CPL, unable to get promoted because although they are better than a handful of teams in CPL, they aren't as good as the only relegation eligible team. You could have a dumpster fire of a team avoid relegation just because they have squatters rights.

I would love it if we could one day have pro/rel, but I would rather not have any than to have this system.

The only place I think we could see pro/rel in the foreseeable future in Canada is with L1O. If that league is able to survive and keep expanding, we could see that within the next dozen years. The impact wouldn't be nearly as pronounced, but that's part of the reason why it's possible.

hence why I was saying they are exempt if they finish top half.  It's not perfect either but it means they can't get relegated if they aren't shit.  At the very least it would be compelling.

but fair enough to those who just think it shouldn't happen whatsoever.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

4 hours ago, Rheo said:

Sportsnet's pod interviews Paul Stalteri and says there is CPL talk.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/paul-stalteri-canada-tottenham-mls-cpl/

starts around 14:30 

[grasshopper1917]

14 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

 

 

this whole thread boils down to semantics, honestly.

obviously the big three are the big three.  No one is disputing that.  then there are a bunch of decently sized markets that you could make the case are major markets by Canadian standards.  Certainly we can agree they are markets that could potentially support a team.  What difference does it make whether we call them major or secondary.  they are what they are and they are where the CPL is going to go.

 

Right and there are tons of sports fans in those markets who want to see good soccer.  Halifax for years has been ike a third or 4th tier market...... we plan on changing that

[Big_M]

Comeback players

Players who retired less than 5 years ago or who have been out of the game for a few years and would be nice to see make comeback to play in CPL. This is just fantasy.

De Rosario
Stalteri
Hirschfeld
Stillo
J. Uccello
...

[Bison44]

Paul Hamilton, Shaun Saiko, Rob Friend, Mckenna, Kevin Harmse, Ethan Gage, Nick Lyndsay and of course Jamie Peters.  

Has Adrian Cann officially called it quits??

[Rocket Robin]

Is Toronto a major media market (for soccer?). 

In the paper I read (Toronto Star) if it's not the day of or day after a TFC HOME game, the team is not mentioned...an AP or CP three-paragraph column is printed for road games.  The beat reporter is now covering Blue Jay home baseball games which makes it three columnists writing about some pitcher on the disabled list with a blister on his finger. (Their baseball standings are a day behind because  even eastern division games are marked as 'N' for night games).  So cutbacks in the mainstream media.  Well newspapers are passé now right?   

In other news Rogers isn't making enough money so they are shutting down all their Community television Channels in the GTA and surrounding areas (that's usually Channel 10) in most suburbs.  They promise to fulfill their commitment to finish the OHL hockey playoff series but don't expect any sports after that.  Good thing League 1 Ontario didn't rely on them for much exposure and their own website covers it so well. 

 

 

[Complete Homer]

29 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Paul Hamilton, Shaun Saiko, Rob Friend, Mckenna, Kevin Harmse, Ethan Gage, Nick Lyndsay and of course Jamie Peters.  

Has Adrian Cann officially called it quits??

With Peters surfacing in L1O, that one I wouldn't find surprising. There's going to be a scramble for Canadians, might as well pick up a reclamation project if the price is right and he's in shape

[matty]

2 minutes ago, Rocket Robin said:

Is Toronto a major media market (for soccer?). 

Yes. They're well attended and do get coverage (the Sun has put the team on the front page several times). They're easily the #4 team in the city but that also means they get #4 coverage behind 3 teams in far more popular sports (for Canada and the US) and leagues. They do meh on TV aside but that's common for MLS.

On the whole, Toronto-Hamilton (the actual market) is the apex market in Canada (it's double the size of Vancouver-Victoria) and depending who you ask it's the top media after NYC between the US and Canada.

1 hour ago, Big_M said:

Comeback players

Players who retired less than 5 years ago or who have been out of the game for a few years and would be nice to see make comeback to play in CPL. This is just fantasy.

Be nice to see JDG comeback for a year. Mainly cause he seemed to have a romantic idea of the league. It would be cool to see him take part in this chapter because of that.

[Big_M]

Hamilton and Gage are good ones. Peters we'll see his physical condition, he was overweight at his trial in Vancouver a few years ago but he just turned 30. de Guzman his body fell apart last year and he's fully into pro level coaching.

[kmouseyc]

On 2017-04-10 at 4:18 PM, grasshopper1917 said:

Finally, I cant see the CPL billing themselves as a 'Tier 1' league while playing games on football lined fields. To be honest I would have a realy hard time watching any match played on a football lined field. A serious professional league and football lines dont go together. That would be like the AHL or NHL playing hockey games in rinks where there were curling rings everywhere. Would be absolutely absurd. 

100% agree with this!

[Gopherbashi]

Relevant Totera news.

[Gopherbashi]

On another note, I fully believe Anthony Totera could be President some day.