Canadian Premier League

[baulderdash77]

Hamilton is around 12,000

[Gopherbashi]

57 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Really constructive. How about trying to address the arguments? It would appear that you can't, but you are so desparate for a Canadian league to emerge that you'll go along with anything this CPL comes up with even when it involves an approach to the matchday entertainment product that has failed dismally previously.

You make no valid argument that deserves to be addressed - the same vague, sweeping hot takes that you repetitively use to dismiss any potential for pro soccer outside of three cities in this country can be applied in spades for any other alternative out there, yet you've backed yourself so far into your anti-CPL corner out of sheer pride that you continually embarrass yourself by being so willfully blind to any options, evidence, or possibilities to the contrary that one would almost find pity for you had you shown the slightest indication of not being a pompous asshole throughout this entire process.

If you had, in fact, been paying attention to anything except the rattling sound of your own keyboard, you might have noticed that I have been critical (on numerous occasions) of the proposed Halifax stadium for its shortcomings regarding its "matchday entertainment product", at times dismissive - even through the end of last year - that this league would actually get around to being announced, and fully expecting that this league will be a lunchbag letdown compared to the expectations of most on these forums; likely to the point of it folding well before it sees a decade of play.  If these points have not been made absorbed before, then kindly refrain from being foolish by making sweeping generalizations on the viewpoints of others that you clearly do not have the awareness or aptitude to keep track of.

As for TFC2 @ OFFC, that match should have been the absolute dream of anyone who opposed a CPL solution; yourself included.  Here you have two Canadian teams, one of which is an MLS B team, streaming on the internet and televised on local TV, playing in an American league in front of 6500 people in a permanent stadium.  It's likely as good as you're going to get with a USL solution (and, speaking frankly, better than what I expect the CPL will do), yet somehow you still manage to take a hot, steaming dump all over the idea, simply because it's a similar "matchday entertainment product" to what the CPL would be like.

But hey, you know what?  You're free to take whatever dismissive attitude you like.  Free country and all that jazz.  I eagerly await your scathing report about the matchday entertainment product offered by TFC2 at the ever-professional-looking Ontario Soccer Centre, which as we all know is what we normally see from overseas in pro soccer.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

10 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

You make no valid argument that deserves to be addressed...

But you finally went ahead and tried to do it anyway, which strongly suggests otherwise. As far as I am aware, nobody is suggesting at this point that TFC II or their Whitecaps counterpart should enter as is. What has been mentioned in the more recent Kurt Larson articles are rebranded teams. If all three MLS franchises could be persuaded to do that sort of thing in markets like Victoria, London or K/W and Quebec City where they would be more likely to draw a sizable regular crowd, you are almost half way to eight and the emerging league would have some stability to it and there would be a much better chance of persuading FC Edmonton that this is the better way to go. You tend to make most progress when all of the stakeholders within the pro soccer system are pushing in the same direction.

[ThiKu]

17 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...and the ones that would probably be used in Calgary and Winnipeg as well if the "original six" was accurate.

absolutely - the CANPL simply cannot be in big stadiums. Quaint 10k stadiums max, unless you get a Sounders like groundswell somewhere, and that specific team can playing a 25k. But.....

 

The Vancouver team will be best off playing a u20 World Cup-like Swangard.

[lazlo_80]

Aw Snap, I foresee at least 3 new pages of this thread trying to unravel this cryptic tweet

(note, Scott Mitchell is the president of the Hamilton Tiger-cats)

 

 

[matty]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

If all three MLS franchises could be persuaded to do that sort of thing in markets like Victoria, London or K/W and Quebec City where they would be more likely to draw a sizable regular crowd

Right now there's no evidence an MLS reserve/affiliate team can draw so hold off on making such a statement

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

....you are almost half way to eight and the emerging league would have some stability to it and there would be a much better chance of persuading FC Edmonton that this is the better way to go.

This is no where near fact. Don't act like it is. FCE and the CPL has a lot of moving parts that go beyond stable league.

 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

8 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

Aw Snap, I foresee at least 3 new pages of this thread trying to unravel this cryptic tweet

(note, Scott Mitchell is the president of the Hamilton Tiger-cats)

 

 

yea wtf does that mean.

as far as stadium optics go.   It really infuriates me when the point the camera in the wrong direction.

Was at the eddies game yesterday, took a buddy of mine to his second game.  Tried to get tickets to sit in the grandstand because I know they point the camera towards it.  I said "I want to sit in the far stands" and the lady at the til said "General Admission?" and I was like sure yea - assuming that was it.  Get in there and I realize that they don't let people sit in the "Big Blue" until 15 minutes have passed.  So basically, if anyone sees the game on TV and is like hm who's this, they tune in, and it looks like there are literally 20 people there, meanwhile, the far stand is packed, as are the end stands and the supporters section.  But if you literally just point the camera in the opposite direction, it at least looks like the limited stands you have are full.

Just feels dumb to me.  You gotta make it look like it's bursting at the seams.

[matty]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

 you are almost half way to eight and the emerging league would have some stability to it

Sorry I'm just noting this one but why does having the 3 MLS teams mean stability while having Young (who is confirmed) and the rumoured CSE, OSEG and True North mean rocky?

[matty]

His replies are interesting

I think it's safe to say he's declared war

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

20 minutes ago, matty said:

Sorry I'm just noting this one but why does having the 3 MLS teams mean stability while having Young (who is confirmed) and the rumoured CSE, OSEG and True North mean rocky?

I think I have to agree with BBTB here.  Although I'm not 100% sure I have interpreted this whole thread correctly.

Not that I'm saying if those ownership groups are indeed involved that I would consider CPL rocky(we currently are in the dark in terms of who exactly is involved)

But the 3 MLS teams definitely would bring stability to CPL if they were there.  And If BBTB meant 3 MLS teams mean stability overall for Canadian Soccer, I think I have to agree with him.  

It is kind of a catch 22 because on one hand, if they were to sell their franchises to some of the american teams that seem interested(not like there is a shortage lining up to get into MLS) then the revenue from that would definitely be a boon to CPL.  But obviously their owners might not go for that.

And if they stay in MLS, well, we don't set ourselves back 20 years if CanPL were to fail, which, as much as I will do everything I can to make sure it doesn't, is a possibility.

[Gopherbashi]

6 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

I think I have to agree with BBTB here.  Although I'm not 100% sure I have interpreted this whole thread correctly.

Not that I'm saying if those ownership groups are indeed involved that I would consider CPL rocky(we currently are in the dark in terms of who exactly is involved)

But the 3 MLS teams definitely would bring stability to CPL if they were there.  And If BBTB meant 3 MLS teams mean stability overall for Canadian Soccer, I think I have to agree with him.  

It is kind of a catch 22 because on one hand, if they were to sell their franchises to some of the american teams that seem interested(not like there is a shortage lining up to get into MLS) then the revenue from that would definitely be a boon to CPL.  But obviously their owners might not go for that.

And if they stay in MLS, well, we don't set ourselves back 20 years if CanPL were to fail, which, as much as I will do everything I can to make sure it doesn't, is a possibility.

MLS B teams (ie. TFC 2), not the MLS teams (ie. TFC) themselves.

No one being taken seriously here is expecting this league to launch with the MLS A teams.

[matty]

6 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

I think I have to agree with BBTB here.  Although I'm not 100% sure I have interpreted this whole thread correctly.

Not that I'm saying if those ownership groups are indeed involved that I would consider CPL rocky(we currently are in the dark in terms of who exactly is involved)

But the 3 MLS teams definitely would bring stability to CPL if they were there.  And If BBTB meant 3 MLS teams mean stability overall for Canadian Soccer, I think I have to agree with him.  

It is kind of a catch 22 because on one hand, if they were to sell their franchises to some of the american teams that seem interested(not like there is a shortage lining up to get into MLS) then the revenue from that would definitely be a boon to CPL.  But obviously their owners might not go for that.

And if they stay in MLS, well, we don't set ourselves back 20 years if CanPL were to fail, which, as much as I will do everything I can to make sure it doesn't, is a possibility.

I'm not talking about which version do you prefer I'm asking how the later group doesn't offer stability.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

Just now, Gopherbashi said:

MLS B teams (ie. TFC 2), not the MLS teams (ie. TFC) themselves.

No one being taken seriously here is expecting this league to launch with the MLS A teams.

ah.  Okay, yea no.

Loan agreements with CPL, sure.  Maybe even rebranding TFC2 as FC London, or something along those lines(although preferably not, but I'd take it if we had no choice)

Someone mentioned possibly having MLS teams jump over once CPL proves successful, don't think it's likely now.  Down the road u never know.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

Just now, matty said:

I'm not talking about which version do you prefer I'm asking how the later group doesn't offer stability.

okay, I 50% agree with you then.

They offer stability in the sense that they're proper ownership groups with deep pockets that should be able to handle losses in the short term.

The instability comes from the fact that the league is a startup and it's very nature is instability.

We just don't know what will happen.

But I'll do everything I can to help make it stable.

[baulderdash77]

The 3 MLS teams provide some stability that backstops a problem with CanPL.

But I hope the decisions Mitchell mentioning is not the CSA caving to the pressure of TFC and Vancouver to put their USL teams in the CanPL.

I'm certainly fine with season long loans to CanPL but the shuttling back and forth that TFC does I'm not fine with.

I'm also of the optinion that the CSA should impose higher CanCon rules to the MLS teams.  Like 8-10 members of the active 24 have to be Canadian citizens or CanMNT eligible.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

49 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

Aw Snap, I foresee at least 3 new pages of this thread trying to unravel this cryptic tweet

(note, Scott Mitchell is the president of the Hamilton Tiger-cats)

 

 

The fox will no doubt be the three MLS franchises that are after all 51% collectively owned by all of the MLS owners rather than fully owned by the local I/Os, which will no doubt be unpalatable to those that are driven by nationalism in all of this, but what I think some people don't fully grasp yet is that nobody has figured out how to make D2 level soccer work financially in North America yet unlike MLS with D1, which is why the USL is in much better shape than the NASL at the moment because they have been using the greater stability of MLS to their benefit rather than trying to be its rival.

31 minutes ago, matty said:

His replies are interesting

I think it's safe to say he's declared war

Not really. That's actually a fairly moderate and sensible posture, in my opinion. The hardline approach on this would be to demand that the CPL winner is viewed as Canada's national champion and that the MLS teams be viewed as not being fully integral to Canadian soccer.

[baulderdash77]

Montreal Impact is the current banner squad for Canadians with 8 players, All on the active roster.  Toronto FC and Vancouver are both down to 7 Canadians with 6 on the active roster.

They can all do better.  I really think 10 is not unreasonable.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

1 minute ago, baulderdash77 said:

 

But I hope the decisions Mitchell mentioning is not the CSA caving to the pressure of TFC and Vancouver to put their USL teams in the CanPL.

I'm certainly fine with season long loans to CanPL but the shuttling back and forth that TFC does I'm not fine with.

I'm also of the optinion that the CSA should impose higher CanCon rules to the MLS teams.  Like 8-10 members of the active 24 have to be Canadian citizens or CanMNT eligible.

I think I would be okay with them being given a 3 year "term" that can be renewed or nixed when Canada Soccer sees fit.  If it is absolutely necessary.  I certainly won't fault Montagliani if he really feels like something like this is in our best interest(although I will be a little disappointed).

with regards to your second thought.  I took a buddy of mine to the eddies game last night(peripheral MLS fan, big leafs fan, sort of watches all sports kinda guy) and he asked me if I thought the current domestic quotas hurt TFCs(and the other Canadian MLS teams) ability to win.  I basically told him, yea probably but it's worth it, long term.  I think there is the other side to that argument as well.  With the academies up and running now I think it shouldn't be long before we could up the domestic quotas, although 8-10 is pretty substantial.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

2 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

Montreal Impact is the current banner squad for Canadians with 8 players, All on the active roster.  Toronto FC and Vancouver are both down to 7 Canadians with 6 on the active roster.

They can all do better.  I really think 10 is not unreasonable.

I feel like 10 might be pushing it slightly at this point, but min 8 I would support.

[baulderdash77]

I think it should be 8-10.  8 isn't unreasonable.  All 3 clubs were recently over 8.  10 is definitely the top end.  

Toronto FC has been running 8-10 for the past several years and until this week was running 8.  They haven't suffered on the field the past few years fielding quality Canadians.

[matty]

I think if the CSA said "the CPL needs to field the MLS2 teams" Vic would go down as a failure of a president. While there are pluses to him, I think he would be ripped a part by the media and Canadian fanbase because of the World Cup situation, the new MLS deal and the CPL being MLS reserves. While all have pros, they combined fail to live up to the hype in a similar way to the Phantom Menace.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 minute ago, matty said:

I think if the CSA said "the CPL needs to field the MLS2 teams" Vic would go down as a failure of a president...

Maybe by a few people on here, but seriously doubt that's the way that the wider soccer community would view it. Bit skeptical that's what has actually happened, however. The tweet is as has been pointed out above quite cryptic and might also mean the opposite from the way people seem to be reading it. Time will tell.

[matty]

Just now, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Maybe by a few people on here, but seriously doubt that's the way that the wider soccer community would view it. Bit skeptical that's what has actually happened, however. The tweet is as has been pointed out above quite cryptic and might also mean the opposite from the way people seem to be reading it. Time will tell.

I think there would be articles from not jut the blogs but the Spec, Local Xpress and maybe even the Sun and TSN claiming we'd been mislead about the league and that it's simply a minor league and that Vic's name would be focused on. Given how close all the events are to each other I don't think it's a stretch to say they would be linked and that the face of the CSA is the one who is held responsible for both by the media.

I agree we have to wait and see.

[baulderdash77]

It would be a huge disappointment and I would hope that they can't field them as Toronto FC 2- more like owning a team in another city.

If it's an MLSE owned team but not official farm club in London playing at TD Stadium then it wouldn't be as bad.  

It would have to be a seperate management structure and not tied to the TFC academy.

[grasshopper1917]

I mean to me it is very simple. If the CPL **needs** MLS2 teams too work then just scrap the idea of the CPL and stick a bunch of minor league teams in high school football stadiums.  You can either have a fully professional thriving National League or you have a bush league (this is basically what the USL MLS2 teams are). For fun I took a look at the attendance for last home games from MLS2 teams and will list them below from highest to lowest. Notice the 2 Canadian teams - no body goes to watch them now - so why would they suddenly attract thousands if they were in CPL vs USL?

Bethleham Steel    3000

Galaxy 2     2200

Timbers 2   1800

Orlando City B 1100

Swoope Park 1000

Sounders 2     975

TFC 2    500

Whitecaps 2  400

Red Bulls 2 400