Canadian Premier League

[DannyFromToronto23]

I can see TFC 2 move to London 

and Whitecaps 2 move to Burnaby 

[matty]

36 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Not really. That's actually a fairly moderate and sensible posture, in my opinion. The hardline approach on this would be to demand that the CPL winner is viewed as Canada's national champion and that the MLS teams be viewed as not being fully integral to Canadian soccer.

That's massive shade man. Most would call that "beefing"

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Just now, baulderdash77 said:

...in London playing at TD field...

That would be a really bad move because unlike Tim Horton Field and Landsdowne Park it doesn't have the extra width needed for a pro level soccer field due to the running track being almost right next to the football gridiron and the fieldturf is marked. Labatt Park (NY Cosmos in Brooklyn or even better Tampa Bay Rowdies style) would be better but some of the baseball types would go absolutely beserk, so seriously doubt it would happen. In the past, FC London talked about a pop-up type stadium being built at the Oxford-Highbury intersection or on the Fanshawe College campus (I forget which), but I seriously doubt that could be done as quickly as Halifax appear to have managed it.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

15 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

IFor fun I took a look at the attendance for last home games from MLS2 teams and will list them below from highest to lowest...

Bethleham Steel    3000

That's actually probably the most relevant one as it is a rebranded team playing in another nearby market. The new Reno team and Rio Grande are worth a look on that as well on this. Looks like Reno 1868 are doing OK despite being the farm team for the Earthquakes, who have full control on the technical side of things:

http://www.reno1868fc.com/news_article/show/776590?referrer_id=3301473

RENO, Nev. – Reno 1868 FC welcomed United Soccer League’s Vancouver Whitecaps FC 2, Saturday night at Greater Nevada Field. With 4,430 fans in attendance, 1868 FC walked away with a 1-1 draw.

[baulderdash77]

34 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

TFC 2    500

Whitecaps 2  400

I think this is why TFC is looking for a place in CanPL, Montreal packed up its USL team and Vancouver is rumoured to be considering the same.

MLS teams in USL are financially ruinous. Nobody goes, no sponsors care and they're expensive to run.

Let's see what happens in a couple weeks after the CSA meeting.

[matty]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

That's actually probably the most relevant one as it is a rebranded team playing in another nearby market. The new Reno team and Rio Grande are worth a look on that as well on this. Looks like Reno 1868 are doing OK despite being the farm team for the Earthquakes, who have full control on the technical side of things:

http://www.reno1868fc.com/news_article/show/776590?referrer_id=3301473

RENO, Nev. – Reno 1868 FC welcomed United Soccer League’s Vancouver Whitecaps FC 2, Saturday night at Greater Nevada Field. With 4,430 fans in attendance, 1868 FC walked away with a 1-1 draw.

Dude there are exceptions. Also if the goal is 5000 average then indie-ish USL teams with MLS links fail, including Bethleham (who are 40% under the CPL goal) and the well established Pittsburgh and Rochester. Even that Reno game falls over 10% under what the CPL is seeking (their 3rd home game also drew under 5k). If you have enough teams drawing 10+% under what you're seeking sponsors will notice.

Wait and see with the Fury ok before saying it can work.

[Shway]

1 hour ago, matty said:

I think if the CSA said "the CPL needs to field the MLS2 teams" Vic would go down as a failure of a president. While there are pluses to him, I think he would be ripped a part by the media and Canadian fanbase because of the World Cup situation, the new MLS deal and the CPL being MLS reserves. While all have pros, they combined fail to live up to the hype in a similar way to the Phantom Menace.

And this has been my concern about Vic. ...yes he's brining about a lot of change for the CONCACAF region....but with him soon resigning from his president of CSA position , the jury is still out on him. I hope he's not the new puppet for the USSF needs.

[matty]

 

[Chris R]

I would be disappointed if the MLS reserve teams were allowed into the CanPL. However, the tweet might mean the league has agreed not to place any teams directly into cities with an MLS team. Still disappointing.  Just speculation on my part.

[1996]

I'm thinking TFC will put a team in either London or Kitchener and maybe Montreal might do the same in another city in Quebec and Vancouver of the MLS might do the same in another city in Quebec and voilà you have three extra cities you would not have without the Canadian MLS teams involvement, because without them it does not seem like your going to have enough teams to make a league, it's either you have the Canadian MLS teams involvement to make this league happen or you get no league, so décidé do you want a Canadian league yes or no? If you do then it looks like the only way your getting a league is with them involved right now.

[marauder01]

53 minutes ago, 1996 said:

It's either you have the Canadian MLS teams involvement to make this league happen or you get no league, so décidé do you want a Canadian league yes or no? If you do then it looks like the only way your getting a league is with them involved right now.

I really don't think that's the case.

[1996]

7 minutes ago, marauder01 said:

I really don't think that's the case.

That's what your hoping to believe, these MLS teams in Canada have spent s shit load of money on soccer in Canada like no one has ever spent before, if you think these organizations don't have any influence now with the CSA who sanction soccer in Canada then your dreaming in lala land, if this league happens the MLS teams in Canada will have a say at the end of the day in it, the bottom line is money in the end and money is power.

[matty]

 

14 minutes ago, 1996 said:

 these MLS teams in Canada have spent s shit load of money on soccer in Canada like no one has ever spent before, if you think these organizations don't have any influence now with the CSA who sanction soccer in Canada then your dreaming in lala land, if this league happens the MLS teams in Canada will have a say at the end of the day in it, the bottom line is money in the end and money is power.

That's the worst logic I have ever heard on this subject. Yes the MLS teams have invested into Canadian soccer but these 6-8 groups are also offering to invest a FUCK TON OF MONEY into Canadian soccer as well. They're also possibly offering to invest more money into provinces that the MLS teams can't hit up because it's reach is fairly limited. And they know the Canadian MLS are going to keep investing but they could easily kill the willingness of the 6-8 groups by fucking up their plans.

You'd think the fact the MLS teams were out of the loop until like 3 months ago, when they were told to fuck off, would tell you the CSA isn't loyal to them.

[1996]

Well for your sake I hope your right then.

[An Observer]

Maybe I am naïve here but isn't the Voyageurs Cup the Canadian Championship. Cannot this be just interpreted as the CPL sides would be competing on equal footing with the MLS sides for the Voyageurs Cup which makes sense.  At the moment, FC Edmonton has to play Ottawa Fury to be allowed to take one of the 4 semi-final places. If you have the CPL clubs in, the MLS sides may be just treated as equal to the CPL sides and therefore, need to start at the same time as the CPL clubs start to play in the competition.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

6 hours ago, marauder01 said:

I really don't think that's the case.

Nobody outside of Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal is likely to see much of the action from the 2026 WC hosting now there are only 10 games involved, so what could have been the main lightning rod for the growth of a new league if there had been a successful solo bid is now more likely to foster deeper CSA-MLS-USSF cooperation given BMO Field, the Big O and BC Place could easily scoop up all 10 games. We've already heard about a "Canadian SUM" being launched, for example. Remains to be seen whether that backdrop has cooled interest from any of the potential investors, but it's not a good sign that only Hamilton and Halifax have gone public about it only 12 months from what should be the first kick off.

5 hours ago, An Observer said:

Maybe I am naïve here but isn't the Voyageurs Cup the Canadian Championship. Cannot this be just interpreted as the CPL sides would be competing on equal footing with the MLS sides for the Voyageurs Cup which makes sense...

The L1O and PLSQ winners are already getting in as well from 2018 onwards. There has been talk of expanding the competition for a few years now.

[dyslexic nam]

I have skipped a few days of manically checking in on this thread.  Good to see we have moved so far beyond the petty bickering about the involvement (or not) of MLS2 clubs that was initially raised about 200 pages ago.

At some point, we could just park that issue, recognizing that it will be what it will be.  Either MLS2 clubs will be in or they won't.  And if they're in, their involvement will either give the league a D2 feel or it will not.  But one thing is absolutely clear - no one on this board has the capacity to convince the other side to change their position.

 

[matty]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Nobody outside of Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal is likely to see much of the action from the 2026 WC hosting now there are only 10 games involved, so what could have been the main lightning rod for the growth of a new league if there had been a successful solo bid.....

Dude I'm sure everyone setting up this league knew there was a decent possibility of Canada hosting 10-20 games and wasn't counting on a solo bid as a lock.

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...is now more likely to foster deeper CSA-MLS-USSF cooperation given BMO Field, the Big O and BC Place could easily scoop up all 10 games.....

I do see this improving USSF-CSA relations, it's also improving USSF-MFF relations, but the CSA-MLS relations don't get a big bump unless MLS outright takes over the USSF. In addition, it's quite possible Montreal situation is used not to benefit the Impact but bring baseball back.

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

....We've already heard about a "Canadian SUM" being launched, for example....

So? We have zero details about it. It could be MLS run or it could be run by outsiders. Hell it could even be something the CSA is trying to get the Canadian MLS teams and the CPL to work together on (thing was only just launched).

This could be affiliated with the US one or it could be a new creation. Let's wait and see. 

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...Remains to be seen whether that backdrop has cooled interest from any of the potential investors...

True but the CSA has been working on this with the USSF for a while and likely has kept investors in the loop about it's intentions and the east coast developments show there's a desire for CPL even with the WC situation the way it is.

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

....but it's not a good sign that only Hamilton and Halifax have gone public about it only 12 months from what should be the first kick off.

You said like 2 weeks ago you could see how groups could keep something quiet but that's not important here. The main reason we know anything is because select groups needed things they had to ask for. Removing the town hall meetings, there's possibly no reason for some to go public. We know owners and cities don't want to come forward until they're ready and if people want to keep stuff quiet in sports they can (like who owns the Wolfpack).

We'll just have to wait and see. It's only like 2 or 3 weeks until we know if the CPL is a thing or not it seems (unless Totz and Rollins go silent on the matter to make the proper announcement a bigger deal).

[matty]

Anyways, I find it interesting that people think the CSA would seemingly sabotage the plans of something they've been involved in organising for 5 years~ by forcing MLS b-teams into it, against the project's main financial backers wishes, 2 weeks~ before a vote to decide it's fate, risking the project's main financial backers withdrawing or adjusting the plan to cost them a great deal less money and delivering what so many here fear: shitty semi-pro soccer played in shitty stadiums that folds after a season or two.

I mean it could happen but like it would be a total shit show in every way.

Also, it seems possible the tweet wasn't something dark for the CPL.

 

[Rheo]

I don't think it's sabotage but they view it as ineptness based on the CSA's history.

The thing that people have to realize is that the league won't be perfect at launch.  It's going to be impossible to please everyone.   

The biggest issue is that people shouldn't panic and give them a chance.  Don't proclaim the league dead when you find out something is going to be part of the league at launch that you don't like.  That may be MLS 2 teams, CFL stadiums, turf, lines on the field, etc.  That's not to say you can't be critical, god know we will be I'm sure lol but they have to be given the chance at least to succeed or fail without being summarily dismissed as DOA.

[matty]

2 minutes ago, Rheo said:

I don't think it's sabotage but they view it as ineptness based on the CSA's history.

I think sabotage is the right word if that narrative is true but yea the CSA is super inept.

4 minutes ago, Rheo said:

The thing that people have to realize is that the league won't be perfect at launch.  It's going to be impossible to please everyone.   

The biggest issue is that people shouldn't panic and give them a chance.  Don't proclaim the league dead when you find out something is going to be part of the league at launch that you don't like.  That may be MLS 2 teams, CFL stadiums, turf, lines on the field, etc.  That's not to say you can't be critical, god know we will be I'm sure lol but they have to be given the chance at least to succeed or fail without being summarily dismissed as DOA.

Like! This league will be a let down for many but people will adapt after. I think most have gotten used to the fact there are going to be CFL stadiums used and that there will likely be lines on some fields or even tracks around fields, there's that vocal minority that scream for SSS but I think even they know it's not going to happen everywhere.

The MLS2 thing is going to be harder to swallow if it happen because we've had 3 years of "it's not an MLS reserve league" from Rollins, Totz, Beirne and Manning, had Larson say it will curse it into being a minor league and we know larger cities don't want MLS2 teams so the whole thing is a kick in the teeth to anyone that's not a MLS team. Peeps will accept it but peeps won't like it.

[MtlMario]

If the current MLS owners want to help CDN soccer ,as they always say,let them be MINORITY owners of a CPL team.This way everyone is involved for the good of CDN soccer. Thank u thank u very much.

[dyslexic nam]

6 minutes ago, matty said:

I think sabotage is the right word if that narrative is true but yea the CSA is super inept.

Like! This league will be a let down for many but people will adapt after. I think most have gotten used to the fact there are going to be CFL stadiums used and that there will likely be lines on some fields or even tracks around fields, there's that vocal minority that scream for SSS but I think even they know it's not going to happen everywhere.

The MLS2 thing is going to be harder to swallow if it happen because we've had 3 years of "it's not an MLS reserve league" from Rollins, Totz, Beirne and Manning, had Larson say it will curse it into being a minor league and we know larger cities don't want MLS2 teams so the whole thing is a kick in the teeth to anyone that's not a MLS team. Peeps will accept it but peeps won't like it.

At the risk of proclaiming rabbit season, I think you are right in saying that these are qualitatively different issues for the league.  Stadium issues like football lines or tracks can be viewed as freshman league issues that may simply be the unfortunate price of actually getting things up and running, and which could eventually be supplanted by SSS if the league can demonstrate success. The Halifax pop-up proposal is another facet of this - a cautionary approach to investment for a venture that needs to demonstrate some long term viability.  No good poker player sits down at the table and shoves all-in on the first hand unless he's got the absolute nuts.  And in this analogy, a domestic fledgling footy league is simply not pocket aces.

The reserve side issue is different as it speaks to the core identity of the league.  Inclusion of MLS B sides will place a ceiling on the league in a way that a surrounding track simply will not.  Their inclusion may or may not turn out to be necessary to get things launched with a critical mass of ownership groups - but I don't think anyone (even BBTB) would deny that their involvement would impact the identity of the league.  Maybe there is a way to structure it (e.g. minority shareholder) so that it avoids the fox-henhouse dynamic as well as the second tier feel, but it seems like CSA should proceed very cautiously when it comes to that issue.

[Rheo]

Trust me I wasn't trying to start that debate up again lol.  I'm just trying to say that way too often things are argued as black or white on here.  If this or that doesn't happen than the league is doomed to fail.  There is going to be a lot gray at launch.

[rob.notenboom]

I'm personally much less interested in what people say about the league now and when it finally launches and much more interested in what people are willing to do to help it succeed.