BringBackTheBlizzard Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 20 minutes ago, kmacphee said: ...but FFS stop crapping on Halifax. I'm not. The reason I think Halifax would be doing very well with 2000 paid is because that's the sort of numbers that Edmonton and Ottawa (lots of youth soccer group deals are boosting the announced numbers there) are getting in leagues of comparable quality and playing budget to what appears to be envisaged. Like Halifax, Edmonton and Ottawa don't have the huge recent immigration demographics from soccer-loving countries that drive a lot of the passion for the sport in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver and would be depending more on the generation that grew up playing the game recreationally with the youth soccer registration boom. Being a smaller city would help in terms of local media coverage given there are no NHL and CFL teams to compete with for attention and might compensate for having a smaller population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grasshopper1917 Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Just my thoughts on a few things that have been touched on. 1) Blizzard wonders if Halifax would rather no team as opposed to playing in a league with MLS farm teams. As someone who lives in Halifax I have a decent idea what people will support. As Kmac has pointed out Halifax fans generally avoid leagues viewed as 'farm leagues'. Frankly I feel locals would not support minor league soccer the same as they would a strong independent league. 2) Blizzard suggests 'im pouring scorn on the USL' yet I have done no such thing. I simply pointed out half the teams draw under 2000 a game and almost every MLS2 teams draws under 2000. As Alex suggested, and I totally agree under 2000 fans is not really enough to support a fully professional North American sports league. I wish the USL all the best - they have amny decision to make regarding the direction they wish to take the league and their future. 3) Blizzard feels 2000 would be a challenge in Halifax. As someone who lives here I totally 100% disagree wholeheartedly. Our JR. hockey team draws 7000 fans a night in the harsh winter over 35 dates a year. I see no reason a well marketed franchise, which offers a great fan experience cant draw *atleast* 50%-75% of that over (3500-5000) a night. Further more I think we have the RIGHT management group (SEA) trying to make this club a reality. They have experience running several sports events over the past decade in Halifax. They seem to have an in depth understanding of the local sports market and are very much in touch with the local fan base. 4) Frankly I think Halifax has a chance to be the flagship franchise for the league. International quality natural grass pitch. Brand new properly sized soccer specific stadium located in the heart of down town. Largest university student population in all of Canada (most of them live right downtown within walking distance of wanderer grounds). A city starved for professional sports. I think the worry about Halifax is unfounded - it seems to me Halifax is the one steady thing in this endevour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmacphee Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 39 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: I'm not. The reason I think Halifax would be doing very well with 2000 paid is because that's the sort of numbers that Edmonton and Ottawa (lots of youth soccer group deals are boosting the announced numbers there) are getting in leagues of comparable quality and playing budget to what appears to be envisaged. Like Halifax, Edmonton and Ottawa don't have the huge recent immigration demographics from soccer-loving countries that drive a lot of the passion for the sport in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver and would be depending more on the generation that grew up playing the game recreationally with the youth soccer registration boom. Being a smaller city would help in terms of local media coverage given there are no NHL and CFL teams to compete with for attention and might compensate for having a smaller population. Fair enough. I think the positive key to success in Halifax will be the game day experience. It has to have the atmosphere of excitement. 5000 people in a 20,000 stadium is the kiss of death. Small, intimate, and downtown will be be the recipe. I'll have to look at the immigration numbers, but Halifax has always struck me as being very diversified. We invented the donair ? Tons of soccer is being consumed in this market by people both new and old to Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masster Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 3 hours ago, grasshopper1917 said: Just my thoughts on a few things that have been touched on. 4) Frankly I think Halifax has a chance to be the flagship franchise for the league. International quality natural grass pitch. Brand new properly sized soccer specific stadium located in the heart of down town. Largest university student population in all of Canada (most of them live right downtown within walking distance of wanderer grounds). A city starved for professional sports. I think the worry about Halifax is unfounded - it seems to me Halifax is the one steady thing in this endevour. Aren't those student gone in the summer when the majority of the league season will be played? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, masster said: Aren't those student gone in the summer when the majority of the league season will be played? Good point. How many students are from Nova Scotia and how many are from other provinces/countries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grasshopper1917 Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 57 minutes ago, matty said: Good point. How many students are from Nova Scotia and how many are from other provinces/countries? I don't have the numbers but there are no question that some leave for the summer. With that being said tonns are from Nova Scotia and stay also many of the students from away (not all of them) get summer jobs here. There is still a sizable student population here during the summer months (admittedly not as large as the spring/fall semesters). Another thing that has changed over the years is many student now take courses in the summer to finish their degree quicker. Plus many of those students that leave Nova Scotia for out west come back for the summer. So all in all even in the summer we will have a good size student population to draw from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopherbashi Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 If you're counting on poor, starving university students to be a season-long, money-paying fanbase, you're gonna have a bad time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grasshopper1917 Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said: If you're counting on poor, starving university students to be a season-long, money-paying fanbase, you're gonna have a bad time. Those poor starving university students are paying 7$ a beer/shot and 10$ cover charge every weekend at the downtown bars. Pretty sure they can scrape up 15$ for a ticket now and then over 10 home dates. On top of that they support the local hockey team at 20$ a ticket over 35 home dates. Why all the negativity anyway regarding the Halifax bid? We are a large, diverse, sport knowledgeable city. Sometime the folks on here from Upper Canada seem to think we are a small outpost in the middle of a forest. Like any other sports franchise in Canada we will rely on a cross section of folks to support us - Students, seniors, families, kids, men, women etc...... It almost feels like some on here (a small vocal minority) think we are a sure failure. Lets have a little optimism, we re all in this together. A true National league will have teams from Coast to Coast.... And no the Atlantic coast is not in Toronto! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Some students can do the bar scene, others don't find things so easy. At 8,000 break even it's ambitious to say the least to try to make it fly in a smaller city like Halifax. Scale things back to the economic targets of the original CSL, which was ideally 4,000 paid to do it well but possible to stay afloat with 2,000 and I think a new incarnation of the Nova Scotia Clippers could make a go of it this time around. Beyond that when did it become possible to compare what happens in soccer to what happens in hockey in Canada without being laughed at or having some redneck Don Cherry type take severe umbrage? Hope I'm wrong but I think we are a long way from being there yet and basketball is a more realistic parallel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuillermoDelQuarto Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 18 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said: Those poor starving university students are paying 7$ a beer/shot and 10$ cover charge every weekend at the downtown bars. Pretty sure they can scrape up 15$ for a ticket now and then over 10 home dates. On top of that they support the local hockey team at 20$ a ticket over 35 home dates. Why all the negativity anyway regarding the Halifax bid? We are a large, diverse, sport knowledgeable city. Sometime the folks on here from Upper Canada seem to think we are a small outpost in the middle of a forest. Like any other sports franchise in Canada we will rely on a cross section of folks to support us - Students, seniors, families, kids, men, women etc...... It almost feels like some on here (a small vocal minority) think we are a sure failure. Lets have a little optimism, we re all in this together. A true National league will have teams from Coast to Coast.... And no the Atlantic coast is not in Toronto! lol I don't think we should rely on students to keep it afloat. But I do expect student aged people to be a big part of the atmosphere, at least initially. If it can catch on, these are the people who are going to make it cool or not. From there, of course, it will have to be supported by a cross section of people of all shapes and sizes and hopefully those students who fell in love with it initially will come back when they can afford to and be the diehards that it needs to take it to the next level in a decade or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 53 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: Some students can do the bar scene, others don't find things so easy. At 8,000 break even it's ambitious to say the least to try to make it fly in a smaller city like Halifax. Scale things back to the economic targets of the original CSL, which was ideally 4,000 paid to do it well but possible to stay afloat with 2,000 and I think a new incarnation of the Nova Scotia Clippers could make a go of it this time around. Beyond that when did it become possible to compare what happens in soccer to what happens in hockey in Canada without being laughed at or having some redneck Don Cherry type take severe umbrage? Hope I'm wrong but I think we are a long way from being there yet and basketball is a more realistic parallel. Where are you getting 8000 to break even? The average attendance most think is reasonable, from what I've seen given by news outlets, is around 5k and and the Halifax groups seems to be set on just building something that could seat 6-8k. I also recall seeing about this league not being reliant on butts in seats so it seems even drawing under 5k won't kill it. If there is a source saying this league needs to draw 8k to break even and I've missed it send it along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuillermoDelQuarto Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 11 minutes ago, matty said: Where are you getting 8000 to break even? The average attendance most think is reasonable, from what I've seen given by news outlets, is around 5k and and the Halifax groups seems to be set on just building something that could seat 6-8k. I also recall seeing about this league not being reliant on butts in seats so it seems even drawing under 5k won't kill it. If there is a source saying this league needs to draw 8k to break even and I've missed it send it along. I think what we're kind of forgetting here is that what we really need is owners willing to weather the storm for a bit. to think these teams will be sustainable right off the bat is naive. But eventually who knows what might happen. Canada's population is growing like crazy. Maybe Halifax isn't included in that right now, but I fully expect all the major cities to continue to grow like crazy in the coming decade or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said: I think what we're kind of forgetting here is that what we really need is owners willing to weather the storm for a bit. to think these teams will be sustainable right off the bat is naive. But eventually who knows what might happen. Canada's population is growing like crazy. Maybe Halifax isn't included in that right now, but I fully expect all the major cities to continue to grow like crazy in the coming decade or so. I haven't forgotten (i regularly state that moves will be made to try and make money for the first few years), I'm just curious if a source said 8k at games is needed to make the league break even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grasshopper1917 Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 10 minutes ago, matty said: I haven't forgotten (i regularly state that moves will be made to try and make money for the first few years), I'm just curious if a source said 8k at games is needed to make the league break even. Wondered the exact same thing Matty. Considering we have basically no info on the league structure/franchises/ownership model/revenue streams/TV deals ect... I'm not sure where the 8000 break even point comes from? No business or league generally makes money for the first number of years. It takes work to establish relationships, develop the brand, fine tune the business model and such. I really doubt anyone expect the league to draw 8000 fans on average the first year. On the other hand to have that as a 10 year goal may be more reasonable. With some teams drawing 5000 and doing fine and others drawing 10,000 and doing fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 10 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said: Wondered the exact same thing Matty. Considering we have basically no info on the league structure/franchises/ownership model/revenue streams/TV deals ect... I'm not sure where the 8000 break even point comes from? No business or league generally makes money for the first number of years. It takes work to establish relationships, develop the brand, fine tune the business model and such. I really doubt anyone expect the league to draw 8000 fans on average the first year. On the other hand to have that as a 10 year goal may be more reasonable. With some teams drawing 5000 and doing fine and others drawing 10,000 and doing fine. One of the few things that has been said/implied business wise, according to Montagliani, is that the league isn't going to be dependant on butts in seats. BBTB actually posted the article a while back iirc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuillermoDelQuarto Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 5 minutes ago, dsqpr said: The "US" in "USL" turns me off. Just as the "C" in "CPL" turns me on. That is all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 5 minutes ago, dsqpr said: The "US" in "USL" turns me off. Just as the "C" in "CPL" turns me on. That is all! i've heard of a leather fetish but never a letter one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 1 minute ago, dsqpr said: "C" is a very beautiful letter! and a sexual one http://www.sex-lexis.com/C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyslexic nam Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 4 hours ago, matty said: Good point. How many students are from Nova Scotia and how many are from other provinces/countries? Probably roughly the same number that return home to NS after going away to university in another province. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baulderdash77 Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Back on topic; I'm fairly bullish on a Halifax team. I think having a summer monopoly and a good downtown location with a right sized 8,000 seat stadium goes a long way. Theres going to be good buzz for the team; there's already regular press about the expansion idea. I'm going to assume that both local newspapers will have a columnist assigned and they'll some coverage from CBC/CTV/Global out there. Halifax punches above it's weight in Media market size (it's the 11th largest media market at 700k because it's a regional center) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soccerpro Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said: Back on topic; I'm fairly bullish on a Halifax team. I think having a summer monopoly and a good downtown location with a right sized 8,000 seat stadium goes a long way. Theres going to be good buzz for the team; there's already regular press about the expansion idea. I'm going to assume that both local newspapers will have a columnist assigned and they'll some coverage from CBC/CTV/Global out there. Halifax punches above it's weight in Media market size (it's the 11th largest media market at 700k because it's a regional center) If the club can attract the university student crowd early on for a fun night out, it will spread and be a success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 On February 10, 2017 at 8:45 AM, BringBackTheBlizzard said: The bad thing would be, if that ultimately means no team in Hamilton, Halifax or K/W, because it was the "CPL" scenario or nothing where the "swathe of investors" were concerned and compromise with the other stakeholders in Canadian pro soccer was required to be able to make something happen but wasn't possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 10 hours ago, kmacphee said: Yes, we only have 400-450k in our mid-sized city. FWIW, that's significantly more than Gelsenkirchen, where Schalke 04 are based and they draw 60000 plus on average. Your city will do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuillermoDelQuarto Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 53 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said: (it's the 11th largest media market at 700k because it's a regional center) yea I think this part is perhaps being downplayed a little bit. It's Halifax's team for sure, but essentially it's Nova Scotia's team. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of people within an hour making a weekend of it from time to time. And if it takes off I would expect some viewership from the entire island(and likely the rest of the maritimes, up until they got a team anyways) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDNFootballer Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 2 hours ago, grasshopper1917 said: Wondered the exact same thing Matty. Considering we have basically no info on the league structure/franchises/ownership model/revenue streams/TV deals ect... I'm not sure where the 8000 break even point comes from? No business or league generally makes money for the first number of years. It takes work to establish relationships, develop the brand, fine tune the business model and such. I really doubt anyone expect the league to draw 8000 fans on average the first year. On the other hand to have that as a 10 year goal may be more reasonable. With some teams drawing 5000 and doing fine and others drawing 10,000 and doing fine. I think the 8K figure comes from FC Edmonton's Fath as the number he said he needed to break even (which I think he was overstating a bit) a couple years back. San Antonio Scorpions made a profit of 600K in 2014 averaging approximately 6700 per game. Your dead on with the first year expectations - the owners of CPL clubs need to be able to sustain losses the first 5 years at least until the league is firmly established and from what I've heard they know it. Vast majority of NASL and USL teams lose money. The 5K average figure would be a good first year for the CPL and they can build from there. Looking at the NASL and USL as CPL is said to have a similar budget to D2 NASL : NASL started in 2011 with 3770 average their first year and increase it each year up till 2015's D2 record they set at 5900 per game. USL started the same year in 2011 with 2200 per game and has hovered in the 3300 range for the last 3 years as their peak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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