Ansem Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, matty said: BTW how much money you guys think MLS and MLS team have lost? TONS! Montreal Impact has yet to turn a profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levi Oakey Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Just now, BringBackTheBlizzard said: We are talking "CPL" budgets at the moment rather than Montagliani's mysterious league with no name. Hey BBTB. I think I have mentioned it before, but you really need to find a way to drum up support in London. I know some of the Forest City's Finest guys if you would like to connect to them. On a call with Paul Beirne last night and it was very clear the Montagliani and CSA resources are HEAVILY involved with the CPL proposition. I think that was probably one of my biggest takeaways as you have mentioned at times it seemed like they might have different visions but they are all on the same page. That's the same people who have had the most successful world cups at almost every age group (besides men) involved in ensuring this is a success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, Levi Oakey said: Hey BBTB. I think I have mentioned it before, but you really need to find a way to drum up support in London. I know some of the Forest City's Finest guys if you would like to connect to them. On a call with Paul Beirne last night and it was very clear the Montagliani and CSA resources are HEAVILY involved with the CPL proposition. I think that was probably one of my biggest takeaways as you have mentioned at times it seemed like they might have different visions but they are all on the same page. That's the same people who have had the most successful world cups at almost every age group (besides men) involved in ensuring this is a success. Lol, BBTB thinks because Vic hasn't confirmed the league's name, he must not be on the same page as the rest of them. BBTB doesn't really know how product launches work in the business world. No corporation or entity acknowledges a product's name until it's officially unveiled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamondium Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 14 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: We are talking soccer here and even most salaries in MLS are far from sky high. You can easily get experienced players to play soccer to a very decent standard for $50 to 70k, because otherwise they would have to get a real job, be on a construction site in Central America or the former Yugoslavia etc. Around six of those to have a strong spine and pay USL reserve team level wages to the rest with the emphasis on Canadian kids. We are talking "CPL" budgets at the moment rather than Montagliani's mysterious league with no name. Alright, here are some soccer numbers. Let's compare 4th tier England as that's the lowest tier league with readily available numbers from the 80s to today that I can find in soccer. http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2011/10/30/revealed-official-english-football-wage-figures-for-the-past-25-years-301002/ They made on average $8,314 in 84-85. That is below living wages, which by your logic means they shouldn't increase more than inflation because surely they could make more with other jobs. In 09-10, they made on average $38,844. An increase of 4.67x. If we take $350,000 salary and multiply it by that, you get $1,635,242. That number looks somewhat familiar. But wait, "The environement of soccer in England and Canada are way different" I expect to be the next rebuttal. I agree. The popularity of soccer has already matured in England and become a part of the culture there a century ago. It is no longer in a growth phase. In Canada, the popularity of soccer is absolutely in a growth phase, so you could argue that it should grow by even more than that amount. We're also competing for players on a global scale here. If we pay below the industry inflation rate of their salaries, they will choose one of the other hundreds of leagues available. Your desire to pay so little for salaries is simply not feasible unless you want worse quality of players than the CSA had in the 1980s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levi Oakey Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Just now, Macksam said: Lol, BBTB thinks because Vic hasn't confirmed the league's name, he must not be on the same page as the rest of them. He doesn't really know how product launches work in the business world. No corporation or entity acknowledges a product's name until it's officially unveiled. Honestly, at one point it did sound like there was a disconnect. But it is increasingly clear that the CSA as an organization and Montagliani as it's president is working with all ownership groups to ensure this is happening. I mean On this article (http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2015/12/31/canadian-soccer-association-president-victor-montagliani-assesses-program-after-very) he clearly states it: Montagliani: We want to give us the best opportunity for that to come to fruition, which is why we haven’t rushed to making any assumptions. We want to make sure we’ve dotted every “i” and crossed every “t” in terms of the best model moving forward for this country, from a feasibility standpoint, from a business model standpoint. We’re continuing our due diligence in that. We’ve talked to the various ownership groups that would be interested—actually, more than just interested—so what we want to do is, I think, 2016 we’ll be in a position to go public with more details and even have more of a date going forward, in terms of when we would start. But it’s something that I think is very important because it’s something that is needed in this country. I think relying on five teams to carry the load of player development in a country like ours is asking a lot of those guys. I think they do more than their fair share, quite frankly; we need to help out that equation in terms of finding more expressions of professional football in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 13 minutes ago, Diamondium said: Your desire to pay so little for salaries is simply not feasible unless you want worse quality of players than the CSA had in the 1980s. Did you watch the CSL in the 1980s? Some of the weaker teams were no better than later round teams in the Ontario Cup, because they were effectively running on an amateur basis. Actually being able to have a 600k team budget would be a massive step forward from the CSL in most of the smaller cities. Beyond that, yes the UK is not a good place to look these days for imports for the reasons you outline, but there are still plenty of countries where the money in soccer isn't that great and a chance to move to Canada can be very enticing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamondium Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 13 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: Did Did you watch the CSL in the 1980s? Some of the weaker teams were no better than later round teams in the Ontario Cup, because they were effectively running on an amateur basis. Actually being able to have a 600k team budget would be a massive step forward from the CSL. Beyond that, yes the UK is not a good place to look these days for imports for the reasons you outline, but there are still plenty of countries where the money in soccer isn't that great and a chance to move to Canada can be very enticing. I wasn't alive in the 1980s, and I will readily admit my last point about quality was misplaced and I'll trust your judgement about the quality of the league. Having said that, the rest of the points remain true regarding expected salaries. Using your salary numbers even: Starters = (50-70k as mentioned) ~$60k x 11 = $660,000 Backup squad = ~$30k x 11 = $330,000 Reserve/Filler/Youth = ~$10k x 3-5 (lets say 3) = $30,000 That's a salary budget of $1,020,000 right there for a 25 man roster, paying absolutely the lowest you can reasonably expect a professional athlete to make. That's without a single 'star player' salary on the books. I appreciate your sentiment that we shouldn't be going crazy on star salaries and I agree 100% on that sentiment, but $1.5 million really isn't an unreasonable amount for the league to be spending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 You don't need more than about 18 players in your core roster as you can always call up extras from local teams on trial permits etc. 6x60=360 and 8x30=240 and a few guys on your reserve/filler/youth level for an original CSL type roster. Vast majority would be Canadian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamondium Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 1 minute ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: You don't need more than about 18 players in your core roster as you can always call up extras from local teams on trial permits etc. 6x60=360 and 8x30=240 and a few guys on your reserve/filler/youth level for an original CSL type roster. Vast majority would be Canadian. There's no middle ground to be reached then. It seems that the quality of talent you are expecting in the league is simpy lower than the quality of talent I am expecting. No way to know who is right or wrong until we know what the league's quality will be, so no point debating that further I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 When it comes to quality I think most should be expecting something around League Two. BBTB are you gonna link that article or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 No, and what does it matter anyway? Do you honestly believe they could run a league with no paying customers? That's a fantasy scenario. I suspect he was misquoted. Beyond that I think people need to look more at viability and sustainibility than quality. Yes, NASL budgets would be nice but they are also a good way to go, if you want to follow a Canadian Baseball League trajectory and fold after a single season, because they are a recipe for losing into seven figures each and every season and there are not that many Tom Faths around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamondium Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 12 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: No, and what does it matter anyway? Do you honestly believe they could run a league with no paying customers? That's a fantasy scenario. I suspect he was misquoted. Beyond that I think people need to look more at viability and sustainibility than quality. Yes, NASL budgets would be nice but they are also a good way to go, if you want to follow a Canadian Baseball League trajectory and fold after a single season, because they are a recipe for losing into seven figures each and every season and there are not that many Tom Faths around. You could altenatively look at it the other way though, and say that sure CSL budgets would be nice and cheap but then you risk making the same mistakes the CSL made and folding due to lack of consumer interest. I believe this is an overly simplistic example, but I also believe the other side of the argument is overly simplistic. It's a very complicated calculation all around. I personally have faith that they have done adequate market research on their multimillion dollar investments when they came up with that number. If it's not sustainable, they'll adjust. Or hell, they'll fold and it will be unfortunate and you can say you told us so, but at least they will have tried to improve Canadian soccer rather than just say it's impossible and give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 6 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: No, and what does it matter anyway? Do you honestly believe they could run a league with no paying customers? That's a fantasy scenario. I suspect he was misquoted. Beyond that I think people need to look more at viability and sustainibility than quality. Yes, NASL budgets would be nice but they are also a good way to go, if you want to follow a Canadian Baseball League trajectory and fold after a single season, because they are a recipe for losing into seven figures each and every season and there are not that many Tom Faths around. I want you to post it because it let's us know the following A) the league will be unlike anything Canada has seen before B ) the league will not be solely reliant on attendance to survive C) I said please Now I get neither of these fits your narrative about the league currently but it is an article of note in this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grasshopper1917 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: Yes, NASL budgets would be nice but they are also a good way to go, if you want to follow a Canadian Baseball League trajectory and fold after a single season, because they are a recipe for losing into seven figures each and every season and there are not that many Tom Faths around. Anyone getting started with a league like this will ready to take losses for the first 10-20 years. No question at all. The investors aren't getting involved to make a quick buck. No league makes money right away and most dont for decades. Tom Fath had no idea how to run a soccer club or a sports franchise. This is clear and the state of the Edmonton franchise reflects this. You are right on one hand - there are not many people who have no experience or no idea how to run a sports team going out and spending millions to learn on the fly. On the other hand from what I have been led to believe the finacial backers in this league all have experience running successful sporting events and franchises. Secondly the CSA is said to be 100% behind it. Modern sports in North America is more about growing the value of the franchise then operational profits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said: Anyone getting started with a league like this will ready to take losses for the first 10-20 years. No question at all.... You would like to think so, but there have been plenty of examples over the years of owners with deep pockets walking away from soccer franchises in North America after just a few games or a single season when their inflated expectations failed to materialize. Canada had a six team league called the CPSL do that after 73 days back in 1983 and there's a parallel there with the present day given it was running in parallel with the original NASL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Professional_Soccer_League_(1983) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 10 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said: Anyone getting started with a league like this will ready to take losses for the first 10-20 years. No question at all. The investors aren't getting involved to make a quick buck. No league makes money right away and most dont for decades. Montreal Impact has yet to turn a profit. Look at TFC paying a $10M fee to join MLS and now they are worth over $245M after 10 years. I doubt that TFC turn a profit either but that's the beauty of deep pocket owners who have multiple assets to absorb such a loss, yet that asset keeps appreciate in value. 15 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said: Modern sports in North America is more about growing the value of the franchise then operational profits. BINGO! That's why I grow tired of reading BBTB predicting CPL's doom because they won't turn a profit ASAP. That's not how it works. Those owners did their homework and the single-entity structure helps solidify the league further. 15 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said: Tom Fath had no idea how to run a soccer club or a sports franchise. This is clear and the state of the Edmonton franchise reflects this. You are right on one hand - there are not many people who have no experience or no idea how to run a sports team going out and spending millions to learn on the fly. On the other hand from what I have been led to believe the finacial backers in this league all have experience running successful sporting events and franchises. Call me the cynic, how sure are we that those owners wants Fath as a partner to begin with? For Edmonton, a Katz buying them out and take the team, rebrand and restructure it, would be an even better outcome. As for the Fury, their bizarre move with Montreal Impact and closing their academy to save money at all cost makes me wonder about their "fit" with this ownership... Perhaps a Melnyk could partner as a co-owner, buy them out or start a new clubs to compete. "As Is"... not liking the Fury in CPL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: You would like to think so, but there have been plenty of examples over the years of owners with deep pockets walking away from soccer franchises in North America after just a few games or a single season when their inflated expectations failed to materialize. Canada had a six team league called the CPSL do that after 73 days back in 1983 and there's a parallel there with the present day given it was running in parallel with the original NASL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Professional_Soccer_League_(1983) We're in 2017 and those examples you keep using didn't use single entity structure like CPL will use just like MLS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: You would like to think so, but there have been plenty of examples over the years of owners with deep pockets walking away from soccer franchises in North America after just a few games or a single season when their inflated expectations failed to materialize. Canada had a six team league called the CPSL do that after 73 days back in 1983 and there's a parallel there with the present day given it was running in parallel with the original NASL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Professional_Soccer_League_(1983) He said modern also what was the ownership of the CPSL like? If you link that article I keep asking you to link we can largely dismiss the approach of past leagues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamondium Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 13 minutes ago, Ansem said: Call me the cynic, how sure are we that those owners wants Fath as a partner to begin with? For Edmonton, a Katz buying them out and take the team, rebrand and restructure it, would be an even better outcome. As for the Fury, their bizarre move with Montreal Impact and closing their academy to save money at all cost makes me wonder about their "fit" with this ownership... Perhaps a Melnyk could partner as a co-owner, buy them out or start a new clubs to compete. "As Is"... not liking the Fury in CPL I am a blind optimist regarding an Edmonton team, but I could really see Katz getting involved for the CPL and doing just that. He recently created the Oilers Entertainment Group with the distinct focus of providing entertainment in more ways than just hockey, and a soccer team is the perfect thing to add to that portfolio. When you also consider the massive success the arena district has been for him, he is probably feeling a little invincible when it comes to Edmonton sports investments right now and might want to try his hand in something a bit more challenging like a soccer franchise while also being a bit lower risk (comparatively, a couple million a year in losses is nothing to him when he's paying 4th line NHL players that much). The whole thing just seems right up his alley. I frankly wouldn't be surprised if he packaged the entire thing with a new small stadium just because he wants to. (Okay, that part is a bit hopeful but who knows) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtlMario Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 28 minutes ago, matty said: He said modern also what was the ownership of the CPSL like? If you link that article I keep asking you to link we can largely dismiss the approach of past leagues I actually was at the opening game of Inter-Montreal. The owner if I recall correctly was a gentleman named Bob Laker, don't know what he was worth but I'm sure he wasn't in a Saputo or Katz category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 On an FC Edmonton themed podcast recently it was suggested that it's MLS that Katz finds interesting rather than the new domestic pro league. It had Duane Rollins on it so should be easy to find by googling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: On an FC Edmonton themed podcast recently it was suggested that it's MLS that Katz finds interesting rather than the new domestic pro league. It had Duane Rollins on it so should be easy to find by googling. Oh well...MLS have no interest in Canada so he's most likely already aware that CPL is the only way as of now if he wants to diversify in the sport's scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: On an FC Edmonton themed podcast recently it was suggested that it's MLS that Katz finds interesting rather than the new domestic pro league. It had Duane Rollins on it so should be easy to find by googling. He's also pretty unlikely to ever get MLS in Edmonton. While I'm doubtful will see Edmonton in the CPL for a while, it's far more likely than Edmonton in MLS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamondium Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: On an FC Edmonton themed podcast recently it was suggested that it's MLS that Katz finds interesting rather than the new domestic pro league. It had Duane Rollins on it so should be easy to find by googling. I heard that as well but I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to sell him on this instead since it's become glaringly obvious that MLS has no interest in Edmonton. One telling sign that he might theoretically be on board with this could be a lack of MLS expansion bid as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 17 minutes ago, Diamondium said: I heard that as well but I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to sell him on this instead since it's become glaringly obvious that MLS has no interest in Edmonton. One telling sign that he might theoretically be on board with this could be a lack of MLS expansion bid as well. Could also just be that he's confident that MLS will become profitable, and that isn't a known for CPL at this point. If he wants to add soccer to his profile, CPL will be the way to go, as MLS is pretty unlikely to expand to Canada again, much less Edmonton. Maybe down the line he pays an expansion fee to get in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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