Canadian Premier League

[Gopherbashi]

Just because teams will not be called "B" or "2" doesn't mean there won't be B teams in the league.  The devil's in the details on that one.

Of course, this could just be a roundabout way of confirming TFC III to CPL.  

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

14 minutes ago, Pqhbv said:

This would imply that the CSA has gone with the futballer group? or that Bob young is with said group?

This confusion should be worrisome.

No, I think futballer's group are probably a non-factor, if MLS level budgets in Moncton are really part of their plan. My guess would be that the CSA might side with the three MLS teams, if they can find a way to convincingly repackage USL in a Canadian context. Throw in Ottawa and that's already four teams in place.

 

 

[matty]

Drew Beckie seems to want the CPL to not field reserve teams. Honestly with all the bickering people do here I feel like people forget why this matters. Let's remember who this matters most to

 

[shermanator]

Not only that, but quite a few players and coaches have talked publicly about the need for a domestic league in this country. Tissot, Ledgerwood and de Guzman come to mind on the players side. Paulus on the coaching side

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Great, but do they have the money to pay for it? MLS, the Saputos, Greg Kerfoot and OSEG do and their views carry more weight for that reason. It all depends on whether the Ticats actually have any other investors on board that will write a cheque for a franchise. If they don't, odds on the CSA do the pragmatic thing and team up with MLSE.

[Complete Homer]

1 minute ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Great, but do they have the money to pay for it? MLS, the Saputos, Greg Kerfoot and OSEG do and their views carry more weight for that reason. It all depends on whether the Ticats actually have any other investors on board that will write a cheque for a franchise. If they don't, odds on the CSA do the pragmatic thing and team up with MLSE.

It's scary when I start to agree with you. Gotta head to the shop for some tinfoil

This is a very reasonable stance, if CPL as 1A falls through. That being said, the only thing Larson has demonstrated credibility for is being a mounthpiece for TFC. I believe him completely in that this is what TFC wants to convey. 

I do believe that Bob Young and co. have a decent number of markets lined up, but if the choice is between going to war with MLS or accepting rebranded MLS2 teams with a very limited ability to act as reserve squads, I could see it happening. Toronto is likely worked out for CPL, but if we want Vancouver or Montreal in it, this might be the way to go.

That said, MLSE's comments about putting a U20 team in (their U20 can't even win L1O) makes me think they have little intention of actually following through

[Kent]

A concern for me if MLSE owns a Toronto team that is not branded 2 or B (or III), is the conflict of interest if that teams goes up against TFC in the Voyageurs Cup. MLSE could potentially tell the coach of "Not TFC 2" to deprioritize the Voyageurs Cup in favour of league play, so that MLSE can get more money from gates the rest of the way in Voyageurs Cup, and have a greater liklihood of winning it all with their "not officially our flagship team".

That in addition to the difficulty of actually making sure it doesn't operate effectively as a reserve team/staging team.

[matty]

3 minutes ago, shermanator said:

Not only that, but quite a few players and coaches have talked publicly about the need for a domestic league in this country. Tissot, Ledgerwood and de Guzman come to mind on the players side. Paulus on the coaching side

I've talked with a few guys who are pro CPL and guys who are hesitant about it. The hesitant guys reasons seemed to be about if the league would offer a decent level of pay and support and if the money is in place is enough to keep it stable.

3 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Great, but do they have the money to pay for it? MLS, the Saputos, Greg Kerfoot and OSEG do and their views carry more weight for that reason. It all depends on whether the Ticats actually have any other investors on board that will write a cheque for a franchise. If they don't, odds on the CSA do the pragmatic thing and team up with MLSE.

I agree money is key here but the league is gonna need a certain shared mindset amongst its owners to be a success and a reserve league is likely not going to appeal to most. If MLSE, Saputo, ect. are willing to play by the rules set by the CSA and other owners and field teams that are not reservist/youth sides then yes they should be considered but based on comments where MLSE have downplayed the league this doesn't seem to be the case. Yes they have money but if they're so at odds with others who are interested in creating a true top flight then it could push the others away.

[Kent]

3 minutes ago, matty said:

I've talked with a few guys who are pro CPL and guys who are hesitant about it. The hesitant guys reasons seemed to be about if the league would offer a decent level of pay and support and if the money is in place is enough to keep it stable.

I agree money is key here but the league is gonna need a certain shared mindset amongst its owners to be a success and a reserve league is likely not going to appeal to most. If MLSE, Saputo, ect. are willing to play by the rules set by the CSA and other owners and field teams that are not reservist/youth sides then yes they should be considered but based on comments where MLSE have downplayed the league this doesn't seem to be the case. Yes they have money but if they're so at odds with others who are interested in creating a true top flight then it could push the others away.

Having reserve teams would really turn me off. I would probably still support the league, but I would try to get out to games in Hamilton rather than go to the closer local Toronto reserve team. I'd rather a 6 team league without reserve teams, than an 8 team league with reserves. If we really need the reserve teams to get up to 6 teams (I think 6 is the bare minimum), then I guess that's better than nothing.

[Complete Homer]

Just now, Kent said:

Having reserve teams would really turn me off. I would probably still support the league, but I would try to get out to games in Hamilton rather than go to the closer local Toronto reserve team. I'd rather a 6 team league without reserve teams, than an 8 team league with reserves. If we really need the reserve teams to get up to 6 teams (I think 6 is the bare minimum), then I guess that's better than nothing.

Ok, but what would you say to a team in oxford blue jerseys named "The Blizzard" that had a large portion of the roster filled by season-long loans from TFC, with a max of one or two players going between TFC and this team each season? Assuming it isn't beaten over your head that the team is inferior, is it that big of a deal?

To me, if it is closer to a NYCFC-City relationship than a TFC-TFCII relationship, I can be happy with it. It wouldn't be my first choice, but it is hardly enough to stop me from supporting it

[matty]

10 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

It's scary when I start to agree with you. Gotta head to the shop for some tinfoil

This is a very reasonable stance, if CPL as 1A falls through. That being said, the only thing Larson has demonstrated credibility for is being a mounthpiece for TFC. I believe him completely in that this is what TFC wants to convey. 

I do believe that Bob Young and co. have a decent number of markets lined up, but if the choice is between going to war with MLS or accepting rebranded MLS2 teams with a very limited ability to act as reserve squads, I could see it happening. Toronto is likely worked out for CPL, but if we want Vancouver or Montreal in it, this might be the way to go.

That said, MLSE's comments about putting a U20 team in (their U20 can't even win L1O) makes me think they have little intention of actually following through

I'm willing to bet MLSE are working out a deal for TFC to loan young players to CPL clubs and scout rather than field a team. It seems like the best deal for both parties. I think no matter what, long term, the Canadian MLS teams and CPL are going to be very close partners.

[Complete Homer]

1 minute ago, matty said:

I'm willing to bet MLSE are working out a deal for TFC to loan young players to CPL clubs and scout rather than field a team. It seems like the best deal for both parties. I think no matter what, long term, the Canadian MLS teams and CPL are going to be very close partners.

That's best case scenario, in my mind. If we can have fully independent teams but avoid antagonism, I'd be pretty happy

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 minute ago, matty said:

I'm willing to bet MLSE are working out a deal for TFC to loan young players to CPL clubs and scout rather than field a team. It seems like the best deal for both parties. I think no matter what, long term, the Canadian MLS teams and CPL are going to be very close partners.

I think they would definitely want a team to keep coaching in house. Three MLS aligned teams and Ottawa (presumably anyway) from USL and throw in Edmonton if the NASL collapses (as is far from impossible) and you are 5/6ths or 5/8ths of the way there. It's not that difficult to do once you factor in the MLS teams rather than working at cross-purposes with them.

[Gopherbashi]

Honestly, as much as everyone here would love to have some super-amazing D1 league that is drowning in money and acts on par with MLS, at some point we do have to temper expectations between that dream and reality.  Put simply; we're not going to get everything we might dream of.

Does the CPL need the stability and money that TFC & co can offer?  Yes.

Would Canadian soccer still benefit from a nine-team pro league, if three of those develop professionals?  Absolutely.

Can we chuck the B teams back to USL once we've grown and know that the league isn't going to topple over in the first April snowstorm?  Damn straight we will.

Will it sting if one of the teams is named "Windsor TFC"?  Incredibly.

Is the sun still going to rise the next morning?  Of course.

Are we still going to mock those little red hatchlings mercilessly when they come to down?  Horribly.

Will we still wake up that next morning still wanting the league to succeed, despite its imperfections?  I damned well hope so.

We all know that we could go on until the fabled World Cup we somehow expect to get, waiting for the ideal league with the ideal structure and the ideal investors.  The ideal doesn't always work when it hits reality.  Sometimes you have to get up and go with what you have, and work from there to make it better with every passing day.

(Please, for the love of god, don't let one of the teams end with "TFC")

[Gopherbashi]

7 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I think they would definitely want a team to keep coaching in house. Three MLS aligned teams and Ottawa (presumably anyway) from USL and throw in Edmonton if the NASL collapses (as is far from impossible) and you are 5/6ths or 5/8ths of the way there. It's not that difficult to do once you factor in the MLS teams rather than working at cross-purposes with them.

For all the times we hear that the grassroots is holding things back by fighting over their little fiefdoms, it would be nice if the top of the pile didn't do the same thing.

[matty]

My biggest issue with the MLS reserve sides being in the CPL is that I don't think they'll help the league draw and will damage the other teams with casual fans.

[ironcub14]

Damn, just seeing the Totera/Larson tweets and the back and forth. The like spree will have to follow tomorrow for now, but,

I've said this before in the thread. I honestly see zero issues with having both an independent Toronto CPL side, backed by a billionaire owner like Mitch Goldhar, AND a re-branded TFC II side, both playing in the CPL.

I mean, we want as many billionaires and corporations in this league as possible. And we very much want a 10-team league to start. We have an independent CPL club in Toronto for most of us to flock to, but we still have a MLS reserve side, branded with some other name, that has done very well to contribute to CanM23 development already, playing in the highest level they possibly can.

To me, literally everybody wins... BOOM!

[ironcub14]

1 hour ago, Complete Homer said:

It's scary when I start to agree with you. Gotta head to the shop for some tinfoil

This is a very reasonable stance, if CPL as 1A falls through. That being said, the only thing Larson has demonstrated credibility for is being a mounthpiece for TFC. I believe him completely in that this is what TFC wants to convey. 

I do believe that Bob Young and co. have a decent number of markets lined up, but if the choice is between going to war with MLS or accepting rebranded MLS2 teams with a very limited ability to act as reserve squads, I could see it happening. Toronto is likely worked out for CPL, but if we want Vancouver or Montreal in it, this might be the way to go.

That said, MLSE's comments about putting a U20 team in (their U20 can't even win L1O) makes me think they have little intention of actually following through

Very quick side note for you, not that relevant in the context that much, but it was TFC's U17 team that was in L1O this year. Their U20/TFC III team was in PDL. That said, Manning pondering if they could possibly put TFC III into a CPL was just a goddamn ridiculous thing to say, honestly.

But whether we can put a re-branded TFC II into CPL, along with an independent Toronto CPL side? I think that is incredibly pragmatic for the purposes of Canadian footy development.

[Complete Homer]

39 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

Very quick side note for you, not that relevant in the context that much, but it was TFC's U17 team that was in L1O this year. Their U20/TFC III team was in PDL. That said, Manning pondering if they could possibly put TFC III into a CPL was just a goddamn ridiculous thing to say, honestly.

But whether we can put a re-branded TFC II into CPL, along with an independent Toronto CPL side? I think that is incredibly pragmatic for the purposes of Canadian footy development.

Unless I am misinformed, the overlap between the PDL team and the L1O team was extensive, going off of the rosters on the TFC site. 

[matty]

On 18/10/2016 at 6:12 PM, Gopherbashi said:

To pass the time, what would everyone's favourite option be if the CPL doesn't become a thing?

USL Canadian Division?  Stand-alones in NASL?  Canadian semi-pro D2 league?

Just saw this and wanna play.

I think the most realistic move is 2 more NASL clubs (if it survives) or 3 more USL clubs.

It also would be nice if Calgary pushed hard for MLS. I know Ottawa and Edmonton always have their names mentioned as going for it but I see Calgary being a more appealing market for MLS.

CRAZY IDEA: The NASL says "screw you" to being an American league and instead somehow gets sanctioning from CONCACAF to be a real North American league with like 10 teams in the US, 6 in Canada, 2 in the Caribbean and 2 in Central America.

[Gopherbashi]

6 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Unless I am misinformed, the overlap between the PDL team and the L1O team was extensive, going off of the rosters on the TFC site. 

Yeah, I think they shifted a bunch of their guys from PDL to L1O when PDL's season ended.

[Gopherbashi]

3 minutes ago, matty said:

Just saw this and wanna play.

I think the most realistic move is 2 more NASL clubs (if it survives) or 3 more USL clubs.

It also would be nice if Calgary pushed hard for MLS. I know Ottawa and Edmonton always have their names mentioned as going for it but I see Calgary being a more appealing market for MLS.

CRAZY IDEA: The NASL says "screw you" to being an American league and instead somehow gets sanctioning from CONCACAF to be a real North American league with like 10 teams in the US, 6 in Canada, 2 in the Caribbean and 2 in Central America.

NASL says "screw you" to being an American league and becomes the "North of America Soccer League"  

[Ansem]

My 2 cents...

If billionaires are indeed in play here, they would never accept investing that much cash into a league to accept reserve teams in it. 

Assuming casual fans would be clueless at what that means is ridiculous. At the minute you let that happen, the league looses value and your growth & revenue potential drops significantly. 

As a billionaire I'd say "see you later".

The best realistically MLSE can hope for is some mechanism to facilitate scouting and transfer of talents. Perhaps some joint venture/cooperation in a CPL2/CHL D2-D3 division within the pyramid. 

MLSE owning a club in both MLS and CPL is a huge conflict of interest. That's a no-brainer right there. That's why MLSE were talking about bringing a reserve team in CPL. Anything else than that is a conflict of interest. 

Same city, same sports, owning 2 teams in different league fighting for the same market? C'mon guys...of course it's a conflict of interest. CPL has no choice but to say no if their goal is a true standalone Division 1 sanction.

[Kent]

6 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

Ok, but what would you say to a team in oxford blue jerseys named "The Blizzard" that had a large portion of the roster filled by season-long loans from TFC, with a max of one or two players going between TFC and this team each season? Assuming it isn't beaten over your head that the team is inferior, is it that big of a deal?

To me, if it is closer to a NYCFC-City relationship than a TFC-TFCII relationship, I can be happy with it. It wouldn't be my first choice, but it is hardly enough to stop me from supporting it

Its hard to say, but I think a team like that would have to work for a while to gain my trust. Would this team have its own academy or would it just sign the TFC academy guys that aren't ready for TFC?

Anyways, realistically I would likely go to games in Toronto, but my preference would be to go to Hamilton. Of course that means a bigger time commitment which is tough in my situation with a young family.

Anyways, it would be very disappointing if the league has reserve teams or whatever you want to call it, and I would probably start dreaming about scenarios that could happen where that reserve team bails and is replaced by a truly independent club.

[matty]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

My 2 cents...

If billionaires are indeed in play here, they would never accept investing that much cash into a league to accept reserve teams in it. 

Assuming casual fans would be clueless at what that means is ridiculous. At the minute you let that happen, the league looses value and your growth & revenue potential drops significantly. 

As a billionaire I'd say "see you later".

The best realistically MLSE can hope for is some mechanism to facilitate scouting and transfer of talents. Perhaps some joint venture/cooperation in a CPL2/CHL D2-D3 division within the pyramid. 

MLSE owning a club in both MLS and CPL is a huge conflict of interest. That's a no-brainer right there. That's why MLSE were talking about bringing a reserve team in CPL. Anything else than that is a conflict of interest. 

Same city, same sports, owning 2 teams in different league fighting for the same market? C'mon guys...of course it's a conflict of interest. CPL has no choice but to say no if their goal is a true standalone Division 1 sanction.

Are there any rules preventing MLSE from owning a CPL team?

For the record I agree with you