Ballou Tabla

[InglewoodJack]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

 

I feel like such a thing would especially gain traction in a place like Turkey. Hard to express why exactly, but it just feels to me like it would. Somehow, I imagine the Belgians, Dutch, etc. being less awed by such a thing. 

I think if a club in a league like the Turkish second division wants to bring in good players from abroad, they have to be savvier than teams with bigger budgets. I'm sure that a league like the CPL has players who can and would love to play in a league like that, but it isn't easy to exactly set up a scouting network in Canada, so the best way to discover players is by catching a clip that goes viral, looking into the player, and then seeing how good he is. The move didn't happen, but I'm sure that's similar to how Joel Waterman was scouted in Turkey- some scout takes a look at the lesser World Cup team rosters, see a few names you've never heard of before playing in a decent league, then you hit YouTube and go in for a closer look.

[Bigandy]

38 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Maybe with this move he can transfer up the Turkish ladder and find a team like Hatayspor in the Super Lig. At that point he's surely back on the NT radar. Good luck to him, anyhow. 

Would playing for hatayspor put him on the NT radar? We have so much winger depth. 

We have 6 players who would be clearly above him
1. buchanan
2. millar
3. koleosho
4. corbeanu
5. davies
6. larin - can play as a winger
7.Hoilett

With guys like the following all competing for 7th in the depth charts (although several are out of position)
1. brym
2. Ugbo - been playing on the wing unsuccesfully
3. nelson
4. Shaf
5.spoony
6. Oso
7. Numerous prospects 

If he can get to besiktas or fenerbache than he could be an option - if we lose koleosho, davies goes to LB, hoilett retires, larin stays ST, and hes better than all our other prospects. 

Its certainly possible but its a looong climb for him and he plays our deepest position.
 

[InglewoodJack]

2 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Would playing for hatayspor put him on the NT radar? We have so much winger depth. 

We have 6 players who would be clearly above him
1. buchanan
2. millar
3. koleosho
4. corbeanu
5. davies
6. larin - can play as a winger
7.Hoilett

With guys like the following all competing for 7th in the depth charts (although several are out of position)
1. brym
2. Ugbo - been playing on the wing unsuccesfully
3. nelson
4. Shaf
5.spoony
6. Oso
7. Numerous prospects 

If he can get to besiktas or fenerbache than he could be an option - if we lose koleosho, davies goes to LB, hoilett retires, larin stays ST, and hes better than all our other prospects. 

Its certainly possible but its a looong climb for him and he plays our deepest position.
 

Sam Adekugbe plays for Hatayspor. Herdman has shown that he'll call in a player for quality and club level, not necessarily for position. I think he'd be in the running for the Charles-Andres Brym Honorary Roster Spot For Players Who Score Good.

[P-O]

Great move and this will give minutes to another young canadian 

[A.D.I.D.A.S.]

Interesting to see Ryan Babel is playing for Eyüpspor in the same league.

[WheatsheafSK]

1 hour ago, Pottsy3 said:

Tosaint Ricketts spent two years in the Turkish second division

How can we forget about Tam Nsaliwa?  played for Bucaspor around 2015.  

[WheatsheafSK]

Any word on how much for the transfer? I have not seen any speculation yet.  I just hoping that Athletico gets something back that goes back into the club. 

[Bigandy]

42 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Sam Adekugbe plays for Hatayspor. Herdman has shown that he'll call in a player for quality and club level, not necessarily for position. I think he'd be in the running for the Charles-Andres Brym Honorary Roster Spot For Players Who Score Good.

I 100% agree. The difference though is that herdman will look at positions to an extent. He obviously wouldnt leave every cb out just because we have 26 quality mids and strikers. Sam is our only true LB option. Laryea can play out of position, edwards is a lwb (and not as good as sam) and davies plays as an attacker. 

If we look at the quality of attackers my list includes 7 players in pretty much direct competition for winger. Then a further 7 players who are competing for an attacking spot. If we talk about not having a direct quota for a specific position, but having 1-3 positions that fluctuate based on calling up the highest quality player, then we can include cav, jebbison, JRR, JMR, laryea as a winger (to close out a game) etc. 

If tabla was a top top player but with 4 top wingers ahead of him, then maybe we take 5 wingers instead of 4. However, I think if we look at the player quality, its more likely that theres other attackers who will be playing at a higher level and tabla gets pushed even further down if he is only at hatayspor. 

Brym had an audition against a young corbeanu and without koleosho and still didnt make it. Now we are going to add 2-3 years of development for bym, corbeanu and all our other prospects, and potentially add 2 top 5 players in koleosho and jebbison. The bar is moving further ahead. Tabla would have to not only get to the Hatayspor level (which is unlikely), but also produce at a phenomenal rate to get a call up to the A/ B+ camp.

[Obinna]

59 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Would playing for hatayspor put him on the NT radar? We have so much winger depth. 

We have 6 players who would be clearly above him
1. buchanan
2. millar
3. koleosho
4. corbeanu
5. davies
6. larin - can play as a winger
7.Hoilett

With guys like the following all competing for 7th in the depth charts (although several are out of position)
1. brym
2. Ugbo - been playing on the wing unsuccesfully
3. nelson
4. Shaf
5.spoony
6. Oso
7. Numerous prospects 

If he can get to besiktas or fenerbache than he could be an option - if we lose koleosho, davies goes to LB, hoilett retires, larin stays ST, and hes better than all our other prospects. 

Its certainly possible but its a looong climb for him and he plays our deepest position.
 

By "on the radar" I meant Herdman would be seriously looking at him, and we'd be seriously speculating on whether he could make the roster for a camp.

Didn't really mean he would automatically leapfrog the likes of Millar or Corbeanu - although theoretically if Tabla was at Hatayspor while Corbeanu was at Aminia Bielefeld in the 2.Bundesliga and Millar was at FC Basal, Tabla would arguably be playing in the best league, plus the difference in their respective clubs would be kind of negligible from a talent perspective. At that point we may say hmmm...perhaps Tabla deserves a shot here. That's the kind of radar I am referring to.

Right now, he is not on any realistic CMNT radar, not even with this move, but this move could put him just one step away if you know what I mean. 

[InglewoodJack]

8 minutes ago, Obinna said:

By "on the radar" I meant Herdman would be seriously looking at him, and we'd be seriously speculating on whether he could make the roster for a camp.

Didn't really mean he would automatically leapfrog the likes of Millar or Corbeanu - although theoretically if Tabla was at Hatayspor while Corbeanu was at Aminia Bielefeld in the 2.Bundesliga and Millar was at FC Basal, Tabla would arguably be playing in the best league, plus the difference in their respective clubs would be kind of negligible from a talent perspective. At that point we may say hmmm...perhaps Tabla deserves a shot here. That's the kind of radar I am referring to.

Right now, he is not on any realistic CMNT radar, not even with this move, but this move could put him just one step away if you know what I mean. 

I love me Liam Millar, but he was one of our favourite young players last year because he scored 10 goals in Switzerland. If a year from now, Tabla is doing that for a Super Lig team? That's definitely worth a call up. Corbeanu got his most recent call up on the back of 3 Championship goals.

That said, I feel as though when it comes to sports, it's very hard for organizations to bring a player back in after it hasn't worked the first time. Ballou has played for Canada, then got dropped, so I think it'll take more from him to get back into the mix than if he had just never played for Canada and suddenly came out of nowhere.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

Would playing for hatayspor put him on the NT radar? We have so much winger depth. 

We have 6 players who would be clearly above him
1. buchanan
2. millar
3. koleosho
4. corbeanu
5. davies
6. larin - can play as a winger
7.Hoilett

With guys like the following all competing for 7th in the depth charts (although several are out of position)
1. brym
2. Ugbo - been playing on the wing unsuccesfully
3. nelson
4. Shaf
5.spoony
6. Oso
7. Numerous prospects 

If he can get to besiktas or fenerbache than he could be an option - if we lose koleosho, davies goes to LB, hoilett retires, larin stays ST, and hes better than all our other prospects. 

Its certainly possible but its a looong climb for him and he plays our deepest position.
 

Koleosho is not CANMNT yet, add in an injury or two and the top 7 becomes 4. 

If we were trailing by a goal with 30 minutes to go, there is no one on your next 7 I would play ahead of Ballou.  He's proven he can make something out of nothing several times, and regularly at big moments.  It's his mindset and consistency that is being questioned.

[Bigandy]

2 hours ago, costarg said:

Koleosho is not CANMNT yet, add in an injury or two and the top 7 becomes 4. 

If we were trailing by a goal with 30 minutes to go, there is no one on your next 7 I would play ahead of Ballou.  He's proven he can make something out of nothing several times, and regularly at big moments.  It's his mindset and consistency that is being questioned.

Good point that we need depth after our top 6/7 (depending on koleosho)

Are you talking about currently ? I would 100% pick all of my top 7 (of the brym, ugbo etc list) before a current tabla. Theres probably a handful more I would pick as well. 

What regular big moments are you talking about? He has 7 goals for montreal in 2016/2017. Then hes scored 1 for montreal in 2020/21 and 6 cpl goals last year. I am not sure that we would want a guy who has 14 career goals (half of them scored 7 years ago, the other almost half goals at the cpl level) to be our next best option for a goal. I mean Oso scored in WCQ at azteca....Ugbo basically matches tablas goal production in ligue 1.... not sure how they are even remotely comparable for who can contribute a much needed goal. 

[Floortom]

3 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Would playing for hatayspor put him on the NT radar? We have so much winger depth. 

We have 6 players who would be clearly above him
1. buchanan
2. millar
3. koleosho
4. corbeanu
5. davies
6. larin - can play as a winger
7.Hoilett

With guys like the following all competing for 7th in the depth charts (although several are out of position)
1. brym
2. Ugbo - been playing on the wing unsuccesfully
3. nelson
4. Shaf
5.spoony
6. Oso
7. Numerous prospects 

If he can get to besiktas or fenerbache than he could be an option - if we lose koleosho, davies goes to LB, hoilett retires, larin stays ST, and hes better than all our other prospects. 

It’s lcertainly possible but it’s a looong climb for him and he plays our deepest position.
 

Depth? this only shows me how little winger depth we have.

the best two players (Tajon and Davies) don’t even generally play winger for their clubs.

After that you have a bunch of question marks and “well he can play there if we’re desperate”. 

 

[Bigandy]

21 minutes ago, Floortom said:

Depth? this only shows me how little winger depth we have.

the best two players (Tajon and Davies) don’t even generally play winger for their clubs.

After that you have a bunch of question marks and “well he can play there if we’re desperate”. 

 

I am not sure what you are seeing. There is 1 question mark in koleosho. Then the players below the top 6 are not out of desperation, but if it suits us. National teams play players out of position all the time to maximize getting their best players on the field/most out of the team. An "out of position" larin, oso, or laryea can still bring lots of quality to the squad. It isnt an act of desperation to have versatile players. 

1. Davies is our best winger -even if he doesnt play that at club level.
2. Buchanan has a new manager and just played as a winger - being versatile shouldnt impact tajons ability as a winger. Hes clearly one of the best wingers we've ever produced for canada.
3. Hoilett is arguably a legend for CMNT and one of our best players
4. millar is playing for basel who regularly get into europe... keep in mind he is still young
5. Corbeanu is a top prospect who has proven his ability in the championship
6. Koleosho is the only "if" on this list but is on track to be our best winger.... maybe 

7. Larin played as a winger/wide forward when he scored his 19 goals (or however many) in turkey. 
8. Oso has played many games for canada as a winger - even if its a bit of a false winger
9. Laryea has played for canada as a winger when we want to lock down the oppositions winger
10. Brym can play along the front line
11. spoony - its his natural position (as in, hes 100% comfortable and trusted as a winger)
12. shaf - hes in the 10-20 in the depth charts for winger even though hes proven in the MLS.
13. nelson - hes in the 10-20 in the depth charts for winger even though hes proven in the MLS.
14. JMR -hes in the 10-20 in the depth charts for winger even though hes proven in the MLS/ a top prospect
15. JRR - hes in the 10-20 in the depth charts for winger even though hes proven in the MLS/ a top prospect
16. We have many more prospects as well. 

Also, its interesting that you are critiquing buchanan and davies for not playing as wingers for their clubs, even though we often play with wingbacks instead of wingers where davies played at the world cup and buchanan has done many times. 

If you compare this to any other position, do we have anywhere near this talent? Have we ever had so much talent in one position? Obviously we dont have the depth of france, but in terms of CMNT, this is incredible depth.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Bigandy

[dyslexic nam]

4 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Isn't this the biggest problem we have to solve though?

I agree it needs to improve - I just don’t see that factor having any impact on Ballou’s decision (of the decisions of those in similar positions).  We generally need more money pumped into the league to improve wages and that is structural issue that we can hopefully improve over the coming years.  But none of that means that players shouldn’t try to seek better wages in the immediate term.  

Having more and more players moving from CPL into higher paying positions cements the league’s role as a legitimate launching pad for young talent.  And given where the league is at, I think that is a perfectly acceptable ethos to lock down.  Look at Tabla himself - was flaming out in MLS, clearly on a downward trajectory, and now seems to be back on the upswing after a solid time in the league.  Throw in the young developmental guys that have moved onto bigger opportunities and it seems like CPL is becoming a respected place for bigger teams to shop for talent.  And again, I think that is a perfectly respectable identity for the league.  Hell, some large European leagues have made that sort of thing pretty match their main raison d’etre - albeit which much bigger clubs trying to grab their players.   

[Floortom]

8 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I am not sure what you are seeing. There is 1 question mark in koleosho. Then the players below the top 6 are not out of desperation, but if it suits us. National teams play players out of position all the time to maximize getting their best players on the field/most out of the team. An "out of position" larin, oso, or laryea can still bring lots of quality to the squad. It isnt an act of desperation to have versatile players. 

1. Davies is our best winger -even if he doesnt play that at club level.
2. Buchanan has a new manager and just played as a winger - being versatile shouldnt impact tajons ability as a winger. Hes clearly one of the best wingers we've ever produced for canada.
3. Hoilett is arguably a legend for CMNT and one of our best players
4. millar is playing for basel who regularly get into europe... keep in mind he is still young
5. Corbeanu is a top prospect who has proven his ability in the championship
6. Koleosho is the only "if" on this list but is on track to be our best winger.... maybe 

 

This is just rose colored glasses stuff.

Theo has proven very little. He has 3 goals and 1 assist in 850 minutes in the Championship. He's going on his fourth loan in two years now. Hope he develops but I certainly wouldnt put him as proof of our good depth.

Liam Millar being a lock for our squad is more of a testament to how little depth we have than anything. The Swiss league is poor and he doesnt really produce in that league. He has 7 goals and 2 assists in 2800 Swiss League minutes the last two seasons. Europe? Conference league is shit competition tbh. Lets not get too excited about playing Zalgiris and Pyunik.

Junior is a good player but he doesnt play as a winger anymore and he doesnt have the pace to do so anymore.

I'm not going to even get into the likes of Spoony, Brym etc.

This is only good depth if your standards are mid tier concacaf. 

[dyslexic nam]

As an aside, I wonder if a move like this could see Tabla make a quantum step in upping his game.  

I think he may have been immature early on and may not have been ready to make the kind of commitment required to sustain a career at this level.  All of this is out-of-my-ass speculation but it is my read on the situation given how things developed.  He may have felt like he had already made it when he moved to Barca.  But he seems to have matured and hopefully has the right perspective.   It was never talent that held him back so if he has solved the (perceived/projected) mentality issues, I think he can absolutely climb the ladder. 

The other factor (again, entirely speculative) is that he might be the kind of guy that plays up to the league he is in. If he feels like he is back in the big time (even if it is just the 2nd Div, Turkey has a lot of footy history) I could see him elevating his game simply because he feels the context warrants it.  Like his new team deserves his full talent.  And a guy like that who is training harder and trying harder could be a force.  Again, I don’t think his talent was ever in question.  

I have always been rooting for this guy.  I hope this move is the key to unlocking his full potential. No idea if he ever makes a national team roster, but I wouldn’t be shocked if this move turned out to be a key milestone in his growth. 

[InglewoodJack]

5 minutes ago, Floortom said:

This is just rose colored glasses stuff.

Theo has proven very little. He has 3 goals and 1 assist in 850 minutes in the Championship. He's going on his fourth loan in two years now. Hope he develops but I certainly wouldnt put him as proof of our good depth.

Liam Millar being a lock for our squad is more of a testament to how little depth we have than anything. The Swiss league is poor and he doesnt really produce in that league. He has 7 goals and 2 assists in 2800 Swiss League minutes the last two seasons. Europe? Conference league is shit competition tbh. Lets not get too excited about playing Zalgiris and Pyunik.

Junior is a good player but he doesnt play as a winger anymore and he doesnt have the pace to do so anymore.

I'm not going to even get into the likes of Spoony, Brym etc.

This is only good depth if your standards are mid tier concacaf. 

Damn this is brutal.

not much I disagree with unfortunately.

[Bigandy]

14 minutes ago, Floortom said:

This is just rose colored glasses stuff.

Theo has proven very little. He has 3 goals and 1 assist in 850 minutes in the Championship. He's going on his fourth loan in two years now. Hope he develops but I certainly wouldnt put him as proof of our good depth.

Liam Millar being a lock for our squad is more of a testament to how little depth we have than anything. The Swiss league is poor and he doesnt really produce in that league. He has 7 goals and 2 assists in 2800 Swiss League minutes the last two seasons. Europe? Conference league is shit competition tbh. Lets not get too excited about playing Zalgiris and Pyunik.

Junior is a good player but he doesnt play as a winger anymore and he doesnt have the pace to do so anymore.

I'm not going to even get into the likes of Spoony, Brym etc.

This is only good depth if your standards are mid tier concacaf. 

No, its not rose colored glasses. can you name me another positon where we have more depth than winger? Can you name me another time in history where our winger depth was as good as we are now. Sure, we dont have the depth of France or the USA, but with perspective, things are going well for us at winger. 

Theo - A player in the championship would have been a 100% lock 5 years ago. the fact that a championship goalscoring winger is not in our squad proves our depth improvement

Millar - millar is currently our 4th choice winger, corbeanu, spoony, and koleosho could easily be above him. conference league has teams like west hame, fiorentina, villareal, Koln, AZ, Nice as well. Is it shit compared to champions league, yes! Is it a much higher level than what our 4th-7th best left back plays? Absolutely!!!! 

Junior has been playing wingback which "traditionally" requires even more pace than a winger. He can 100% still do a job at winger. this isnt fifa 23 where all wingers need speed. He can float inside, get on the ball and allow laryea to overlap with speed. To brush off hoilett to try and prove your point is so foolish when we just watched him play out wide at a world cup and performed great. 

You can be pessimistic and negative about the overall quality of our squad, how every position could use more depth, but lets analyze with some perspective. In comparison to other positions, winger is bar far our deepest position. In comparison to the past, this is the deepest CMNT pool we've ever had at winger. 

Keep in mind we may lose hoilett and spoony, but everyone else is fairly young. give our talent pool 5 years and our winger depth is likely to have kicked it up another gear. 

Instead of just slagging off our players, I'd love to hear which position we have more depth in and if we have ever come close to this positional depth in the last few decades. 

[Obinna]

21 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

As an aside, I wonder if a move like this could see Tabla make a quantum step in upping his game.  

I think he may have been immature early on and may not have been ready to make the kind of commitment required to sustain a career at this level.  

I think you may be onto something. Just wanted to add that Tabla has already upped his game in Ottawa, at least in my opinion. Even when I consider the step down, I still believe Ballou is a more mature player. Possibly that's down to being a more mature human being.

He's gone through a humbling experience - from one the hottest MLS prospects - to a signing with Barcelona (with a 25M release clause, no less), to flaming out at the club and then returning home to start from scratch- to then failing to get re-signed by your homegrown club, essentially finding yourself further behind at 22 than when you began at 18 - to then going to the CPL and having a pretty strong season - to now getting a second chance at Europe. Talk about a roller coaster!

The fact he accepted a 2nd division Turkish deal from a club that didn't even exist when he turned pro may suggest he's really matured - as clearly, he is willing to take smaller, more mature steps up the professional ladder.

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, Obinna said:

Manisa F.K. - Wikipedia

If you think Ballou is joining a club with more a lot more history than Ottawa, you may be surprised to learn that Manisa haven't been around long. They apparently weren't founded until 2019!

Not sure. It specifically says they became independent of the sports club in Manisa they were part of, meaning the club had teams in all kinds of sports, as is common in Turkey, Greece, Balkans sometimes, Spain.

So it is the same team that is now legally free of the legal and economic confines of another entity. This formula could work for many teams as often the many sports sections--handball, waterpolo, athletics, volleyball, wrestling --are money losing and the football, and maybe basketball teams, make money. 

[Floortom]

9 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

. In comparison to the past, this is the deepest CMNT pool we've ever had at winger. 

Instead of just slagging off our players, I'd love to hear which position we have more depth in and if we have ever come close to this positional depth in the last few decades. 

Well yes, because Canada has historically been a terrible footballing nation. Of course, we're better. 

That's what i said earlier, it's definitely good depth compared to Panama, Honduras, Canada 2008 etc.  But it's not good enough to be a more serious footballing nation and it's important to get much better there (as essentially every other position).

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, Floortom said:

Well yes, because Canada has historically been a terrible footballing nation. Of course, we're better. 

That's what i said earlier, it's definitely good depth compared to Panama, Honduras, Canada 2008 etc.  But it's not good enough to be a more serious footballing nation and it's important to get much better there (as essentially every other position).

Ah. So all youre posts can basically come down to - Canada sucks. 

Our deepest position with the best players are only "mid concacaf tier" as you said. This by default would make all our other positions (which are way worse for depth and quality), mid to low concacaf tier. 

Are we a top football nation - no. Are we better than mid tier concacaf - Absolutely! But theres still more work to be done. 

The speed of growth of our program has been insane. Itll take time to get to the next stage of quality. Maybe I am a bit optimistic on guys like koleosho commiting and corbeanu developing, but I still think that if you do comparisons of our winger depth to other positions, other CMNT squads, and other concacaf teams, we are doing extremely well with only the USA and Mexico above us. 
 

[Bigandy]

15 minutes ago, Floortom said:

That's what i said earlier, it's definitely good depth compared to Panama, Honduras, Canada 2008 etc.  But it's not good enough to be a more serious footballing nation and it's important to get much better there (as essentially every other position)

This wasnt said before. If you had said this, I would have agreed and most likely softened my stance at defending the CMNT. All I read though was negative slags on our depth and individual players without any acknowledgement of how much better we are than 4 years ago. 

If youre point is that Canada has improved immensely with both depth and quality in the last 5 years, but we are still not on the USA/Mexico level, than i 100% agree with you. 

Maybe some of our intentions were lost in translation and we feel the same way about the CMNT. 

Edit: I just looked at the mexican world cup squad and other than lozana they dont have any euro based wingers. all are in liga mx which is arguably similar in level to mls. Theres an argument that we are above them with our winger quality/could very well be above them in a few years.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Bigandy

[MauditYvon]

Only way I see him ending up in Besiktas/Fener/Gala/Trabzonspor is if he 1) gets promotion to D1 in 2024-2025 2) kills it in top flight, something like 10g 10a 3) becomes free agent by July 1st 2025

But anyway, just hope he’ll avoid injuries, plays in a dozen of games until the end of the season, Manisa has a decent mercato next summer and they fight for promotion next year.

At first I was meh, but I think it’s a pretty nice move. Good challenge and good timing.