Argentina - Canada May 24

[Mazha]

herd he had a little migrane....... waaaoooooooo ! poor sweetie, not in shape or what........ bring on the young guys earlier who were !

I never want to see Hastings in a Canadian kit again.

[Soju]

herd he had a little migrane....... waaaoooooooo ! poor sweetie, not in shape or what........ bring on the young guys earlier who were !

Bull sh1t post. Richard Hastings is a Canadian legend and doesn't deserve this sort of immature trash talk.

[Gian-Luca]

Paul James take on the match:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/the-worlds-game/lessons-from-a-5-0-defeat/article1581200/

where he practically stops just short of calling Canadian soccer players the worst human beings alive today.

I mean I get the point he's making, but sheesh........

[Admin]

Paul James take on the match:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/the-worlds-game/lessons-from-a-5-0-defeat/article1581200/

where he practically stops just short of calling Canadian soccer players the worst human beings alive today.

I mean I get the point he's making, but sheesh........

Man WTF.

Was that necessary? Really?

Personally I think our current national team would tear the 1986 team a new arsehole.

I have not heard a single person make an 'excuse' with the likes of Guz ect missing. All they wanted was a slightly better game which there is a good chance it would have been with a full squad. Win? No.

[Gian-Luca]

Man WTF.

Was that necessary? Really?

Personally I think our current national team would tear the 1986 team a new arsehole.

I have not heard a single person make an 'excuse' with the likes of Guz ect missing. All they wanted was a slightly better game which there is a good chance it would have been with a full squad. Win? No.

I had a big time problem with the "making excuses" front with our players prior to and during qualifying 2 years ago so I can understand the issue, but as you say it seems unnecessary to bring it up here after a match like that. I think where James loses me is in the comparison between the 1986 team and the one that played in Argentina - why the comparison? The former had all of the advantages in terms of preparation that the current squad lack & have been asking for. If the 1986 team had been pulled together a few days prior to this game after not having played together in 5 months (or in some cases, not having played together at all), flown down in bits and pieces, had 7 or 8 starters missing, I'm sure they would have found it just as difficult.

[gator]

I had a big time problem with the "making excuses" front with our players prior to and during qualifying 2 years ago so I can understand the issue, but as you say it seems unnecessary to bring it up here after a match like that. I think where James loses me is in the comparison between the 1986 team and the one that played in Argentina - why the comparison? The former had all of the advantages in terms of preparation that the current squad lack & have been asking for. If the 1986 team had been pulled together a few days prior to this game after not having played together in 5 months (or in some cases, not having played together at all), flown down in bits and pieces, had 7 or 8 starters missing, I'm sure they would have found it just as difficult.

I don't completely disagree with James and I do think he has a point in what he says about Preki, BUT, the 1986 comparison doesn't make a whole lot of sense! Comparing teams from different eras in any sport is just too subjective IMO! His point about the 3 Argentia players missing being mush better than JDG, Hutch and Nana is valid but I would argue those players would have a greater influence on our team than the 3 missing Argentina players! It's all just opinions and I think James does make some good points from time to time even if he might be a little harsh!

[redhat]

I think where James loses me is in the comparison between the 1986 team and the one that played in Argentina - why the comparison? The former had all of the advantages in terms of preparation that the current squad lack & have been asking for. If the 1986 team had been pulled together a few days prior to this game after not having played together in 5 months (or in some cases, not having played together at all), flown down in bits and pieces, had 7 or 8 starters missing, I'm sure they would have found it just as difficult.

I agree. Quote from PJ's article: "Simply put, Canada’s 1986 team would have performed better against Argentina. They were an unemployed group of athletes who had a great team spirit, an incredibly strong work ethic, and a persistence that allowed them to win or perform well against anybody and in spite of the significant odds stacked against them. "

While I admire the feats of the 1986 WC team, there's no way they could have done better against THIS Argentina team. This was not a normal friendly; this was their final warm-up before the WC and their final send-off. That 1986 squad couldn't win against North Korea during the Merlion Cup and yet PJ thinks they'll do so much better ...

[El Hombre]

Yet another opportunity for James to grind his Canadian-players-nowadays-are-mentally-weak axe.

Shocking.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Personally I think our current national team would tear the 1986 team a new arsehole.

That always appears to be the conventional wisdom in these parts but is it based on having watched both generations of players play? I can remember watching the Canada vs France game 24 years ago when the NASL era players came very close to getting a result against a France team containing world class players like the midfield of Platini, Tigana, Giresse and Fernandez as well as Papin and Battiston. I'm not convinced that the present day CMNT roster could match that level of performance let alone better it regardless of how much preparation time was available. I think people tend to seriously underestimate the quality of the NASL in the early 80s and don't grasp how much money could be made back then by players in North America in the NASL and MISL relative to what was available in top European leagues prior to the satellite TV money boom and tend on that basis to assume that the reason that players like Lenarduzzi and Mitchell never made the move to Europe at the peak of their careers was that they can't have been any good.

[Lord Bob]

While I admire the feats of the 1986 WC team, there's no way they could have done better against THIS Argentina team. This was not a normal friendly; this was their final warm-up before the WC and their final send-off. That 1986 squad couldn't win against North Korea during the Merlion Cup and yet PJ thinks they'll do so much better ...

To be fair, a few of those hard-working blue-collar 1986 players were match fixing in the Merlion Cup, so it's not exactly a fair comparison.

[redhat]

To be fair, a few of those hard-working blue-collar 1986 players were match fixing in the Merlion Cup, so it's not exactly a fair comparison.

I think AM being fair, in light of such "admirable" qualities ... ;-)

[redhat]

I'm not convinced that the present day CMNT roster could match that level of performance let alone better it regardless of how much preparation time was available. I think people tend to seriously underestimate the quality of the NASL in the early 80s ...

Respectfully while your opinion is accepted, I (and many poeple on this board) have seen NASL, CSL, and WC1986 footage (and live matches),

and will beg to differ. Just on pace alone, the current Argentina would destroy our WC1986 team, even in their prime.

And while I passionately cheered and was pleased for our performance against France in the opening match, in the back of my mind I have honestly the same conclusion: France underperformed and we were very much outplayed. I just thought PJ's remark was ridiculous in saying they (his WC1986 squad) would have done much better against Argentina's 2010 squad.

[Gian-Luca]

His point about the 3 Argentia players missing being mush better than JDG, Hutch and Nana is valid but I would argue those players would have a greater influence on our team than the 3 missing Argentina players!

I agree and would add that it was far more than just 4 players missing - I counted 7 starters, possibly 9, that weren't available. James defeats his own assertion here, because he points out that Canada has very poor depth and then says that the fact that so many top Canadian players were missing is irrelevant. Well it can't be irrelevant if you are going to argue that the Canadian team is so lacking in depth - lacking in depth means that Canada couldn't replace those players adequately whereas Argentina didn't miss those 3 players at all. Having said that, I still think we'd have lost by at least 3 goals even with our strongest line-up having been together for a week prior to this match (though we might have looked a little better doing it), and a loss is a loss, but I also think a lot of our better rivals in Concacaf would have met the same fate, not to mention a few teams that are actually in the World Cup.

[gator]

I'll say it again, it is very subjective to compare eras! How would the 2010 Blackhawks do against the 1971 team that lost in the final! How would the Man Utd of today do against the teams from the 70's, who knows, there's all kinds of arguments to be made either way but that's all it is! This is the reason James' whole argument loses some of its bite with me, his opinions about how programs are run or how players train could have some validity but the comparison between teams is a bit silly IMO! BBTB makes some good points about the old NASL, I'm of the opinion that it was very good soccer despite the strange rules the league had, could the top Blizzard teams beat TFC, who knows, that's another argument!

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Players like Platini, Tigana and Giresse were no slouches when it came to playing the game at a high tempo, redhat. Do you remember the semi France played against West Germany in 1982 and the way they played when they won the 84 European Championships? Paul James's comments revolve around having a team that has the mental toughness to hang in there against a truly world class opponent like that. It isn't really a question of being able to take a team like that on for skill whether in the 1986 context or in the present day. It goes without saying that neither generation can/could do that. His point maybe boils down to the fact that 20 or 30 years ago the CMNT were more aware of their limitations and more willing to do what had to be done to keep a game like that close.

[Sam]

How would the Man Utd of today do against the teams from the 70's, who knows,

Sorry to be a little pedantic but Manchester United won 1 trophy and the 70s and were relegated. So hopefully the current team would beat them.

Point is valid though.

[Keegan]

What a joke of an article by James... throwing the current squad under the bus in favour of his 1986 squad. There is no chance in hell that team gets a better result if they fly down there days before, haven't played together in months or at all, are facing a hungry Argentina team in Buenos Aires OH AND, the 1986 WC squad is missing half of their best players... so scratch off Lenarduzzi, Mitchell and a few more... I'd say that is the equivalent of Canada missing its 2 best central defenders, best keeper, 2 best midfielders..

[Admin]

I'll say it again, it is very subjective to compare eras! How would the 2010 Blackhawks do against the 1971 team that lost in the final! How would the Man Utd of today do against the teams from the 70's, who knows, there's all kinds of arguments to be made either way but that's all it is! This is the reason James' whole argument loses some of its bite with me, his opinions about how programs are run or how players train could have some validity but the comparison between teams is a bit silly IMO! BBTB makes some good points about the old NASL, I'm of the opinion that it was very good soccer despite the strange rules the league had, could the top Blizzard teams beat TFC, who knows, that's another argument!

The teams from today would absolutely annihilate their 1970 equivalents. Especially in hockey.

A time travelling Man United reunion? I bet it would be worse than the Argie Canada game.

There is just no comparison in the levels of fitness today compared with 20 years ago, let alone 40.

20 years ago soccer books still told you not to drink water for gods sake cause it would give you cramps....

Look at Maradona score those goals... can you think of a SINGLE professional player that would lunge at someone like that today? He would be subbed off and never play again. That is 1986. The game, especially defensively is way more sophisticated.

As depressing as that game may have been, our 1986 team would not stand a chance against our current national team.

It makes me seriously question PJ judgement on just about everything. Especially as a coach.

[amacpher]

I think it's pretty cool that I saw two of the Argentine goalscorers (DiMaria and Aguero) and the keeper in Toronto in 2007. It reminds me cool it was for Canada to host that tournament and how lucky I was to be in a position to see a good part of it live.

Yeah it was a good experience. I had more fun at that tournament than Euro 2008 in Austria. Those double-headers were great! And yeah, that Di Maria is one to watch in this world cup. Everyone talking about Messi, Tevez and Milito. I wouldn't be surprised if DiMaria winds-up being Argentina's best player in South Africa.

[Guest Ed]

I think PJ is taken to task quite well by some of the responses to his column. It was terrific that Canada made it to the finals in 86 but to speculate on how well they would play against the 2010 Argies compared to our at most 'B' team from Monday is more than a bit contrived.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Yeah it was a good experience. I had more fun at that tournament than Euro 2008 in Austria. Those double-headers were great! And yeah, that Di Maria is one to watch in this world cup. Everyone talking about Messi, Tevez and Milito. I wouldn't be surprised if DiMaria winds-up being Argentina's best player in South Africa.

Greatest thing about going to top quality youth tournaments, you get to see the future stars.

As for Di Maria, he's exciting, not sure he really contributes to the play or helps the team collectively a lot (Argentina has no real playmaker), but he's great to watch.

What do you do to defend Argentina? Not let the balls get to the attackers? Or when they get there, double team and hold them off? Asking since Hart chose the first option, tried to pressure the build up, but it didn't work.

[BearcatSA]

I guess the big thing for Hart to see with the many of the different newer faces in camp for these respective matches is whether or not they have the skillset, mindset, and athletic ability for this level. For some of these guys it may be their only caps at the senior level, and others might show enough to warrant a future call up. I'd like to see how a guy like Straith does with a start under his belt, for instance.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The teams from today would absolutely annihilate their 1970 equivalents. Especially in hockey.

Hockey is irrelevant on this, in my opinion. Different sport with a different culture. Unlike hockey, soccer is played by athletes of normal size and build and there has been no vast change in human evolution over the space of 30 years. The top players of 20 or 30 years ago would have been quickly able to adjust to any improvement in fitness regimes, tactics and equipment. I can remember watching the Dutch teams of the 1970s during the 74 and 78 World Cups. What struck me watching their warmup game against Mexico a few days back was how pedestrian they looked compared to the teams they used to have. They don't have players like Cruyff, Rep and Neeskens these days or players like Van Basten, Gullit and Koeman from a decade later.

Another angle I think some of the younger posters on here don't understand is the sort of first and second generation immigrant culture players like James, Iarusci and Lenarduzzi emerged from in the 70s and 80s in a Canadian context. Leagues like the NSL were very much at their peak at that point based on a wave of post-WWII immigration from soccer loving European countries in the 50s and 60s. The overall registration numbers may not have been as high as the present day but what really matters with the national team is the approach adopted by the small portion of elite players (who in 1986 were the players who had emerged from the top domestic amateur and semi-pro leagues to turn full-time pro in an NASL and MISL context) and that appears to me to form the basis of Paul James's argument. 20 or 30 years ago that often tended to be based on a more old school approach based on ethnic oriented clubs rather than the present day elite youth soccer culture that has developed since the registration boom of the 90s. His argument appears to me to be that given the platform that was availble to build from in the mid-80s much more should have been possible over the last 25 years.

It's perhaps worth bearing in mind that there tended to be a disproportionate number of Canadians playing in the NASL as North American domestic content and that even in the subsequent original CSL era Canadian soccer was arguably still ahead of what happening south of the border in player development terms. That has changed drastically over the last 20 years and as Paul James points out MLS entry is probably going to be the key to undoing the damage inflicted by Canadian soccer's two lost decades in which leagues like the NSL faded away and the emerging elite youth soccer club culture failed to provide adequate player development in the 16 to 21 age range. Hopefully that will be solved over the next decade by the emergence of player academies and residency programs run by pro clubs that are geared towards producing pro level players rather than winning youth level national titles.

[Free kick]

I think PJ is taken to task quite well by some of the responses to his column. It was terrific that Canada made it to the finals in 86 but to speculate on how well they would play against the 2010 Argies compared to our at most 'B' team from Monday is more than a bit contrived.

But everyone is harping on point that was very secondary to main theme of his article. Yes, todays athletes are better than 25 years ago and i dont think that he is disputting that. But are our players TODAY developed and prepared in the right environment to face world class competition of TODAY?

I think what he is getting at is that, despite 800K registered players, the evironment is not competitive enough (in an amateur club setting) to bring out the best in our athletes and that it doesn't foster that hunger in the kids to work their butts off to perfect and refine their skills in order to be the best that they can be and reach the highest possible levels of the game. And, that maybe the game is not attracting the best young athletes in canada. We have all of that in Hockey but not soccer. Can anyone seriously argue with that point.

We have started the process to turn things around with MLS aand its academies but its just the beginning.

He is also stating, that by conjuring up the usual excuses ( the CSA, injuries, reffing, coaches...etc) , we are losing sight and blinding ourselves with what needs to be done. He's right on! We have some fantastic athletes in this country but unfortunately most of them are playing hockey. They became world class hockey players because they had to work their asses off and in an enviroment whereby you must work your ass off (and make big sacrifices) to survive.

[redhat]

Well, PJ actually replied to the threads in his blog:

Thx for the comments....there are many things different about now, when compared to the early 80's that are positive in regards to Canadian Soccer...as we all know our womens program has flourished in terms of numbers and success on the field. Our participation numbers are significantly higher (again as we all know) and even some of mens youth teams over the years have been successful. There are other areas where the CSA has made improvements inclduing referee development....but we still have failed miserably when it comes to qualifying for a world cup finals competition...and so the question therefore should be why? and the answers need to be thorough, candid and honest. As the blog mentions the MLS into Canada is the right move but is it enough? The problem is we keep regurgitating the same old theories on what to do but it makes no difference.

I wish he had new ideas to bring to the table.