Match Thread: Voyageurs Cup - 1st Round - TSS Rovers v Valour - April 19, 2023

[jonovision]

11 minutes ago, nolando said:

I loved that, in the postmatch interview, Will Cromack practically shouted out the fact that his team are hungry, Canadian, and ready and willing to play at the next level. Seemed to be throwing shade towards the many foreign signings at VFC and across the CPL. Said the other teams can pick up the phone and call him.

Seems a bit of a strange comment, as there is a very small permitted foreign quota on CPL teams.

[Kingston]

29 minutes ago, jonovision said:

Ownership has made clear that Valour is a few bad nights or a single bad year away from ceasing to exist. Hopefully this is a wakeup call that helps to re-focus on the league because otherwise this club will Eddy out very quickly.

I'm not fully up to speed on all thing Valour.  Do you have any links for this I could check out?

[jonovision]

2 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I'm not fully up to speed on all thing Valour.  Do you have any links for this I could check out?

Wade Miller has been in the press several times saying that if Valour don't average 5000 a game that the team isn't viable. I doubt the actual truth of this statement regarding viability, but I don't doubt that he is not particularly interested in continuing to operate a soccer team.

Edited April 20, 2023 by jonovision

[CanadaFan123]

19 minutes ago, nolando said:

I loved that, in the postmatch interview, Will Cromack practically shouted out the fact that his team are hungry, Canadian, and ready and willing to play at the next level. Seemed to be throwing shade towards the many foreign signings at VFC and across the CPL. Said the other teams can pick up the phone and call him.

Never heard of him before last night but he’s my favourite Canadian manager now.

[nolando]

4 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Never heard of him before last night but he’s my favourite Canadian manager now.

Check this out: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/will-cromack-691bb73 

[Kingston]

27 minutes ago, jonovision said:

Wade Miller has been in the press several times saying that if Valour don't average 5000 a game that the team isn't viable. I doubt the actual truth of this statement regarding viability, but I don't doubt that he is not particularly interested in continuing to operate a soccer team.

I could see the Bombers not wanting to run a soccer team that is losing money.  They aren't a deep pocketed ownership group that might be willing to sustain losses now in the hopes of seeing franchise value increase later.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

23 minutes ago, nolando said:

I loved that, in the postmatch interview, Will Cromack practically shouted out the fact that his team are hungry, Canadian, and ready and willing to play at the next level. Seemed to be throwing shade towards the many foreign signings at VFC and across the CPL. Said the other teams can pick up the phone and call him.

Reminds me about a story I heard from several different people in London, Ont soccer circles about one of the iterations of the London Lasers (I forget which one) training in a park that a top local amateur team also happened to be training in.

Lasers coach asks a local soccer association guy who was there with them who the other team were and whether they would be worth playing a friendly game against. Local guy warns him that those guys are good and will probably beat you, Lasers coach laughs but sure enough...

Last night's result was definitely not what VFC needed to market CanPL as a big step up from local lower mainland soccer that you can probably watch for free most of the time because word gets around and once it does perceptions can be difficult to shift. They'll be hoping TSS Rovers get completely dismantled in the next round.

[Kingston]

25 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Last night's result was definitely not what VFC needed to market CanPL as a big step up from local lower mainland soccer that you can probably watch for free most of the time because word gets around and once it does perceptions can be difficult to shift. They'll be hoping TSS Rovers get completely dismantled in the next round.

Upsets happen in Cup matches.  Vancouver FC will have to make their own way irrespective of whether a different CPL team got upset.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

^^^what he wrote before the game.

On 4/18/2023 at 8:20 PM, Kingston said:

I think you are right.  The CPL teams are 8-1-1 against the D3 teams.  The loss and draw came back when each leg was home and away so, although Vaughan did beat Halifax in a game, no D3 team has taken down a CPL club.  And the gap seems to be getting wider, rather than narrower.  Eventually an upset will probably happen involving some sort of irreproducible weirdness, but it doesn't seem likely...

It's difficult to spin a game that very easily could have been 4-0 with minutes to go with no red cards involved as "irreproducible weirdness".

Edited April 20, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Kingston]

6 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^what he wrote before the game.

It's difficult to spin a game that very easily could have been 4-0 with minutes to go with no red cards involved as "irreproducible weirdness".

You're right - that was just a win by the D3 team.  I incorrectly expected the first D3 win to involve something odd like the winning goal going in when the CPL keeper dropped a snow-slippery ball.\

My point wasn't to spin the result but to point out that Valour losing to Rovers isn't likely to affect Vancouver FC's attendance.  I didn't see a drop off in Toronto or Montreal when the Whitecaps lost to Calvary.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

VFC are just starting up, while MLS isn't so that's a bizarre line of argument. There was a perception in London soccer circles that the Lasers were no better than the top teams in the local amateur soccer scene fueled by stuff like the impromptu friendly game I described. That affected the size of crowds they could draw. Hence why I wrote, "word gets around and once it does perceptions can be difficult to shift".

Edited April 20, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Kingston]

19 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Hence why I wrote, "word gets around and once it does perceptions can be difficult to shift".

Luckily then the 9-2-1 W-L-D record of CPL vs D3 teams will make the perception that CPL teams are better than D3 team difficult to shift.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Kingston

[SoccMan]

Upsets happen I remember TFC losing and losing badly to a team from Panama a few years ago  in Panama in a Champions League game . That team was no better probably worse than a decent CPL team and TFC got clobbered in that game . But usually a higher level team will lose a close one while dominating . However, both TFC on that night and Valour last night were beaten soundly .

[narduch]

Hell. 

TFC lost the first ever Canadian Championship in 2008 when their opponents were 2 USL sides.

Did that hurt TFC in the long run?

OTP so badly wants to bring the CPL down at all times that he will twist anything 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

7 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Luckily then the 9-2-1 W-L-D record of CPL vs D3 teams will make the perception that CPL teams are better than D3 team difficult to shift.

One of the reasons York United draw poorly is that there is a perception in GTA soccer circles that the soccer (wrongly IMO when teams like the Forge or Cavalry are involved) really isn't hugely better than top L1O or OSL teams and hence not worth paying to watch. Vancouver FC would benefit from not having that mentality take hold in lower mainland BC. TSS Rovers getting annihilated by either Cavalry or Pacific in the next round would help combat that narrative. Having them reach the semis playing against the Whitecaps not so much.

[gator]

2 hours ago, Stoppage Time said:

.I recall a Canada B roster that soundly defeated an English Championship side at Swangard in Burnaby many years ago. From that Canadian squad, the careers of Josh Simpson and Adrian Serioux both received a real boost. 

That was Millwall who signed them both, Hearts were also in that little tournament, I wish we still did some B team matches like that!

[Cblake]

USASA and PDL teams have knocked off MLS teams in the past, it a happens, the likes of Dallas Roma and Cal FC have knocked off team from the top flight in the US Open Cup.  It is all part of Cup competitions. 

[gator]

No matter how some want to spin this result I think it is tremendous for Canadian soccer overall as these 3 Lg1 divisions are getting more organized and are receiving more publicity as they take their place in the soccer pyramid! Not much fun for Valour fans but these upsets happen everywhere in the world, on the night a CPL club can beat and MLS club, that has happened, does that make the CPL better than MLS or turn fans off watching MLS, no way!

[Kingston]

1 minute ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

One of the reasons York United draw poorly is that there is a perception in GTA soccer circles that the soccer (wrongly IMO when teams like the Forge or Cavalry are involved) really isn't hugely better than top L1O or OSL teams the highest level available in Canada or the US and hence not worth paying to watch.

No one in the GTA is overlooking York in favour of L1O.  They are overlooking York in favour of TFC.  In fact, most casual soccer fans in the area are probably unaware of either York or L1O, let alone being able to intelligently discuss their relative merits.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 minutes ago, Kingston said:

No one in the GTA is overlooking York in favour of L1O...

Seriously bud, where did I argue that they were? My point was that they are ignoring York the same way they would L1O or OSL teams if they are not directly involved or friends and family of a player precisely because the soccer is viewed as being too low a level to bother with in spectator terms and paying an admission fee to watch.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

13 minutes ago, Cblake said:

USASA and PDL teams have knocked off MLS teams in the past, it a happens, the likes of Dallas Roma and Cal FC have knocked off team from the top flight in the US Open Cup.  It is all part of Cup competitions. 

I was arguing that it could happen in this thread before rather than after the game because the Valour looked awful in the game against York last weekend despite winning.

On 4/18/2023 at 8:08 PM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

After watching the York vs Valour game on Sunday I think there is every chance a D3 team will knock out a struggling CanPL team at some point. Against the Forge or Cavalry I'll agree not so likely. It's already been close to happening. HFX Wanderers only went through on away goals over two legs against Vaughan Azzurri in 2019 and managed to lose the second leg.

The problem in optics terms is how easily it happened in this game when there wasn't huge amounts of squad rotation going on compared to how MLS teams have sometimes approached the US Open Cup in the past.

[Bison44]

"The problem with optics is I use them to prove the things I want to push, like crowd size, but then ignore them when they dont fit my narrative."

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, jonovision said:

there is a very small permitted foreign quota on CPL teams

I think having foreign players in the league is important for spectators and for players getting exposure to different styles of play, skillsets, and mentality. I've brought people to Pacific games that think it's "cool" having players from Amsterdam, or Buenos Aires or otherwise. It adds a different element for people that aren't big soccer fans.

However, I hate that it's mandatory for teams to carry a certain number of foreign players. Without that rule, I'm pretty sure Pacific would have been 100% Canadian a couple of seasons ago, and I think teams should be able to decide their own approach. We don't need teams to be clones of eachother just to ensure parity or whatever other argument is made. 

[jonovision]

2 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

However, I hate that it's mandatory for teams to carry a certain number of foreign players. 

Is it?

[Aird25]

If people are using cup results to judge the quality of league play and whether it's worth their attention or not, we must have seen a massive boom in attendance after CPL teams knocked out MLS teams