Jesse Costa

[Nello]

This feels like a ship that's taking on water. People scrabbling to grab the silver as the boat sinks. Where do we go from here? 

[Bigandy]

7 minutes ago, frmr said:

I mean when you have Canadian soccer legends like Craig Forrest dropping f-bombs on Twitter berating Canada Soccer over how they handled the ticket pricing in Toronto, I would say that's probably a misstep. Yes, of course they need to maximize revenue, but not at the cost of alienating Canadian fans and pricing them out of seeing their new heroes play. There has to be a balance there and cultivating good will with the fans is always going to pay dividends in the future.

As for Nike, if we're not able to get a World Cup kit when we make the World Cup, then there's no fucking way we should be with NIke. I'm sure there's a kit manufacturer out there who would agree to provide us with kits that we are able to sell to people who want to buy when we make a World Cup. The fact that you couldn't even buy a kit leading up to the World Cup is 100% unacceptable. If that's on Nike, then fuck Nike, but somebody from Canada Soccer signed that deal, and when they did, they basically resigned Canada to minnow status in doing so. That's exactly what I'm talking about—small-minded mentality from our leadership.

Great points on the tickets. I also agree that I would rather fill stadiums than mazimize revenues (within reason). But we are now moving the goal post of this discussion. The example of empty seats in toronto was meant to show that having no money is a cop out. If you are now saying the CSA made a mistake with prioritizing money over filling seats, then i agree but it goes against the original argument. It is not fair to crucify the CSA on both fronts. 

I am sure that Nike would 100% have agreed to supply us a new world cup kit if the CSA had negotiated this in 2019. What happens if CSA negotiates this and we dont make the WC. The CSA is stuck with all this useless merchandise. Can you really blame CSA for not taking this risk? I dont think us as die hard fans expected us to qualify back then so why would CSA bet our finances on this. If we make the WC we lose out on some merchandise but we get a 10m prize money payout. Low risk medium reward. If we get merchandise and miss the WC we get no prize money and have tons of wasted merchandse, high risk, low-medium reward. Where would you put your money if you were the decision maker in 2019? 

 

[frmr]

3 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Great points on the tickets. I also agree that I would rather fill stadiums than mazimize revenues (within reason). But we are now moving the goal post of this discussion. The example of empty seats in toronto was meant to show that having no money is a cop out. If you are now saying the CSA made a mistake with prioritizing money over filling seats, then i agree but it goes against the original argument. It is not fair to crucify the CSA on both fronts. 

I am sure that Nike would 100% have agreed to supply us a new world cup kit if the CSA had negotiated this in 2019. What happens if CSA negotiates this and we dont make the WC. The CSA is stuck with all this useless merchandise. Can you really blame CSA for not taking this risk? I dont think us as die hard fans expected us to qualify back then so why would CSA bet our finances on this. If we make the WC we lose out on some merchandise but we get a 10m prize money payout. Low risk medium reward. If we get merchandise and miss the WC we get no prize money and have tons of wasted merchandse, high risk, low-medium reward. Where would you put your money if you were the decision maker in 2019? 

 

Yeah I get the double edged sword of the pricing of that game and its relevance here, but I think you have to look further ahead than just trying to wring every dollar out of the ten thousand fans who can actually afford to attend. In the long run, that's not going to pay off. Even worse, it will lose you fans. So even though it sounds counter-intuitive to what I'm saying, that was a mistake.

For the kits, like I said I don't know what the exact details of the deal and if it was actually something that needed to be fully committed to well before we even began qualifying. If every country that made the World Cup was getting a huge number of new kits without knowing if they had qualified or not, then I suppose I can see the reasoning to not, even if it is essentially betting on your own federation to fail. Again, without knowing the details of the deal, I feel like there could have been some middle ground where there they could have at least had some clause which allowed them be stocked with merchandise in the event that we did qualify, let alone with a new kit. At the end of the day, Canada Soccer went all in on the fact that we wouldn't make the World Cup, and when we did, they were caught with their pants down. I appreciate you being a voice of reason, so to speak, but regardless of how understandable the thought processes are that ultimately led to them, big mistakes have been made. And big mistakes at the top of a large organization are not acceptable.

[Bigandy]

12 minutes ago, frmr said:

Yeah I get the double edged sword of the pricing of that game and its relevance here, but I think you have to look further ahead than just trying to wring every dollar out of the ten thousand fans who can actually afford to attend. In the long run, that's not going to pay off. Even worse, it will lose you fans. So even though it sounds counter-intuitive to what I'm saying, that was a mistake.

For the kits, like I said I don't know what the exact details of the deal and if it was actually something that needed to be fully committed to well before we even began qualifying. If every country that made the World Cup was getting a huge number of new kits without knowing if they had qualified or not, then I suppose I can see the reasoning to not, even if it is essentially betting on your own federation to fail. Again, without knowing the details of the deal, I feel like there could have been some middle ground where there they could have at least had some clause which allowed them be stocked with merchandise in the event that we did qualify, let alone with a new kit. At the end of the day, Canada Soccer went all in on the fact that we wouldn't make the World Cup, and when we did, they were caught with their pants down. I appreciate you being a voice of reason, so to speak, but regardless of how understandable the thought processes are that ultimately led to them, big mistakes have been made. And big mistakes at the top of a large organization are not acceptable.

Great post. 
100% agree with the first paragraph. CSA made a big blunder on the pricing scheme IMO as well.  Nothing kills momentum like empty seats. 

The middle ground is confusing to me as well. The lead time for new kits may be 2 years but we didnt order nearly enough jerseys at the start and its curious why it took so long for nike to produce more.  It seems like the low risk option is to order more jerseys in case we make the WC but not sign on for a new kit. I think a more intuitive leadership group from the CSA could have seen the rise in soccer fans, development of our player pool and the CPL/hosting a WC and could have been braver to order more merch.  


I know i was strong in some of my arguments but I fully agree with your sentiment that the CSA is not well run. What I want to happen is for the problems to be identified super clear and then proper problem solving to be applied. The problem with how CSA has historically problem solved is to make decisions that may be financially viable short term but stagnate the program.  I have hopes that JDV will advocate for a new director who can come in and be bolder and get us going in the right direction.  

[InglewoodJack]

49 minutes ago, Nello said:

This feels like a ship that's taking on water. People scrabbling to grab the silver as the boat sinks. Where do we go from here? 

We build an elite academy in the middle of nowhere in Quebec, exclusive to players who have zero dual nationalities. Hell, players that don’t even know about the existence of other countries. Take them at 6 years old, keep them until they’re 16, and then let them take over the world. 

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

We build an elite academy in the middle of nowhere in Quebec, exclusive to players who have zero dual nationalities. Hell, players that don’t even know about the existence of other countries. Take them at 6 years old, keep them until they’re 16, and then let them take over the world. 

What happens if they find out about all those broadcasting peanuts though?

[Macksam]

3 hours ago, Bigandy said:

I would argue that both of these are outcomes of a lack of demand. How low should we price tickets? Financially speaking, it may be better to price tickets higher and sell X amount compared to lowering your ticket prices and selling Y amount. The financial measuring stick is revenue and not empty seats. So this claim seems a bit unfounded unless there are some financials to back it up. I am seeing $40.00 tickets for the gold cup matches.. is that too high? On the flipside, CSA managed to sell out edmonton when its freezing cold out. Are you going to attribute the success of filling this stadium to the CSA or was it because there is a demand for WCQ games compared to nations league? 

Great point on the nike deal. But whos to blame for this. Canada soccer has virtually no bargaining power. Do you think nike include clauses for new WC jerseys for countries like Haiti? Thats the level we were at when these nike deals were signed. Its not the CSA's fault that we are minnows and have no bargaining power. How could the CSA negotiate a better deal with nike? Nike would just laugh at CSA demands.

Edit: the lead time for new kits is about 2 years. Can you really blame the CSA for not putting in a request for new WC kits when we had not qualified for the WC in 36 years. What a financial waste it would be if we didnt qualify. I would argue the CSA made the fiscally conservative approach and didnt gamble our finances on new WC kits when we didnt have any signs we would qualify. 

If you can find countlessm missteps, I am sure you have countless solutions as well.  How could canada negotiate a better deal with nike pre world cup qualifyinh success? How can CSA maximize ticket revenues?

Considering Canada has a marketable star players now and how there were allegedly better offers on the table from suppliers like Macron, we actually do have some bargaining power now. The CSA didn't think we'd qualify in December of 2018? Anybody with half a brain could see the potential we had from the 2017 Gold Cup performance, it was like watching the 84 Penguins with Lemiuex getting drafted. You're telling me the CSA weren't soccer savvy enough to see that? We didn't have any signs we'd qualify? Is that a joke? 

[Aird25]

25 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Considering Canada has a marketable star players now and how there were allegedly better offers on the table from suppliers like Macron, we actually do have some bargaining power now. The CSA didn't think we'd qualify in December of 2018? Anybody with half a brain could see the potential we had from the 2017 Gold Cup performance, it was like watching the 84 Penguins with Lemiuex getting drafted. You're telling me the CSA weren't soccer savvy enough to see that? We didn't have any signs we'd qualify? Is that a joke? 

The competition in which Davies was 16, we played Michael Petrasso as a RB, and we lost to Jamaica and El Salvador?

[Macksam]

55 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

The competition in which Davies was 16, we played Michael Petrasso as a RB, and we lost to Jamaica and El Salvador?

To the bolded, what? Yes, we lost to Jamaica in a close match, and they went on to the final that year. Davies also made his mark that tournament. You telling me you didn't have an eye for this? 

Edited April 27, 2023 by Macksam

[red card]

Comparing Canada to any UEFA nation isn't truly comparable given Concacaf generates less than 3% of UEFA's annual revenue (even less in non-Gold Cup years).

UEFA generates even more money than FIFA. Over the recent World Cup cycle, UEFA made more than $10b+ more than FIFA. 

Serbia missed out on Euro money but just a group stage win would get the same amount as Canada winning the Gold Cup. Serbia is in the second tier of Nations League but will get 1.5 million euros solidarity payment and another 1.5 as group winner. If their women's team had qualified for the Euros, they would have received 600k euros. 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by red card

[red card]

4 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Great post. 
100% agree with the first paragraph. CSA made a big blunder on the pricing scheme IMO as well.  Nothing kills momentum like empty seats. 

The middle ground is confusing to me as well. The lead time for new kits may be 2 years but we didnt order nearly enough jerseys at the start and its curious why it took so long for nike to produce more.  It seems like the low risk option is to order more jerseys in case we make the WC but not sign on for a new kit. I think a more intuitive leadership group from the CSA could have seen the rise in soccer fans, development of our player pool and the CPL/hosting a WC and could have been braver to order more merch.  


 

It has been reported that the women players and certain Canada Soccer leadership wanted Nike at all costs for its reputational & marketing value. CSB said they offered to take responsibility for a kit deal as they're was some interest from other manufacturers but CS didn't take up CSB on their offer. 

It's why the women's team got customized kits for the Olympics and this year's World Cup. When Nike doesn't view you as a tier 1 team like the Canada men, the service level & products provided are basic. Often times, it is outsourced to a third party to handle the manufacturing to distribution. Nike did do a couple of decent ads featuring Davies/Sinclair in the first year of the deal.

But if you wanted bespoke service and products, Canada Soccer should have remained with Umbro.

This second tier service explains the World Cup men's kit issue. Supply issues were also caused by covid shutdowns and supply chain bottlenecks in 2020-21. Manufacturers like Nike take on most of the risk and most of money off kits, so nearly all the blame or credit about design & quality goes to them. Distribution & pricing blame/credit lies with manufacturer, distributor and retailer. 

 

[Bigandy]

10 hours ago, red card said:

It has been reported that the women players and certain Canada Soccer leadership wanted Nike at all costs for its reputational & marketing value. CSB said they offered to take responsibility for a kit deal as they're was some interest from other manufacturers but CS didn't take up CSB on their offer. 

It's why the women's team got customized kits for the Olympics and this year's World Cup. When Nike doesn't view you as a tier 1 team like the Canada men, the service level & products provided are basic. Often times, it is outsourced to a third party to handle the manufacturing to distribution. Nike did do a couple of decent ads featuring Davies/Sinclair in the first year of the deal.

But if you wanted bespoke service and products, Canada Soccer should have remained with Umbro.

This second tier service explains the World Cup men's kit issue. Supply issues were also caused by covid shutdowns and supply chain bottlenecks in 2020-21. Manufacturers like Nike take on most of the risk and most of money off kits, so nearly all the blame or credit about design & quality goes to them. Distribution & pricing blame/credit lies with manufacturer, distributor and retailer. 

 

I didnt know all of this. Any idea what our umbro deal was like compared to the new nike deal? 

So basically CSA and the womens team take the blame for forcing through a nike deal (which has legitimate upside on the marketing side) but everything else is nike's responsibility. 

[MtlMario]

Since we're staying off topic, I keep hearing that our Nike deal is one of the worst if not the worst deal ever, how bad were the other competing bids? LOL

[Bigandy]

13 hours ago, Macksam said:

Considering Canada has a marketable star players now and how there were allegedly better offers on the table from suppliers like Macron, we actually do have some bargaining power now. The CSA didn't think we'd qualify in December of 2018? Anybody with half a brain could see the potential we had from the 2017 Gold Cup performance, it was like watching the 84 Penguins with Lemiuex getting drafted. You're telling me the CSA weren't soccer savvy enough to see that? We didn't have any signs we'd qualify? Is that a joke? 

Its bold to say anyone with half a brain could tell we were going to qualify for a world cup based only winning one game - against french guiana (we also let them score twice).

Wheres the potential in that squad? 
1- GK- Maxime Crépeau | CAN / Impact Montréal FC - Decent backup GK but backups dont get you qualified
2- FB- Fraser Aird | / Unattached - Unattached fc says it all. CPL quality player
3- CB- Manjrekar James | HUN / Vasas Budapest - Hungarrian league? CPL quality player
4- FB- Samuel Adekugbe | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC - Decent player but I dont think anyone expected him to get to galatasary level
5- CB- Dejan Jaković | USA / New York Cosmos - NASL player
6- M- Samuel Piette | ESP / CD Izarra - young and some hype. 
7- M- Russell Teibert | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC - Very limited skill set. Decent player but nothing special compared to a JDG or atiba
8- M- Scott Arfield | ENG / Burnley FC - Top quality
9- F- Lucas Cavallini | URU / CA Peñarol - Exciting player but we would be kidding ourselves to think we would be where we are with cav as our go to striker
10- M- David Junior Hoilett | WAL / Cardiff City FC - Top quality
11- F- Tosaint Ricketts | CAN / Toronto FC - nothing special
12- M- Alphonso Davies | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC - exciting prospect but no one predicted he would be the best left back in the world.
13- M- Raheem Edwards | CAN / Toronto FC - decent prospect, nothing special
14- M- Mark-Anthony Kaye | USA / Louisville City FC - USL player, hes improved a ton
15- CB- Adam Straith | CAN / FC Edmonton - NASL player
16- M- Anthony Jackson-Hamel | CAN / Impact Montréal FC - nothing special
17- FB- Marcel de Jong | CAN / Vancouver Whitecaps FC - twilight of career
18- GK- Milan Borjan | POL / MKS Korona Kielce - Decent GK
19- CB- Steven Vitória | POL / Lechia Gdańsk - Wasnt the same player for canada in 2017 as he is now. 
20- M- Patrice Bernier | CAN / Impact Montréal FC - in the twilight of his career
21- M- Jonathan Osorio | CAN / Toronto FC - decent player
22- GK- Jayson Leutwiler | ENG / Shrewsbury Town FC - 3rd string 
23- M- Michael Petrasso | ENG / Queens Park Rangers - decent prospect, CPL quality player
 

CPL quality - 3 players
NASL Player - 2 players
USL players -1
Unattached FC - 1 
Guys who are on the verge of retirement or were unlikely to be part of WCQ  in 2018/22 - Jakovic, Rickets, Straith, jackson-hamel, de jong, bernier  

Players who have grown past their potential in 2017 - Adekugbe, Davies, Oso?, Kaye 
Players who didnt reach their potential - Petrasso, Piette, James, Fraser 

I am not sure why you think anyone with half a brain looks at this squad, pre herdman as well and thinks this is a WC caliber team.  

The results were not there, the potential is not there, players in europe are not there. What about this squad would make anyone with half a brain willing to put money on this squad to go to the WC.  If our squad from 2000 cant qualify then no chance these guys will.  

The reason we qualified is because of herdman and guys we had no idea about committing and developing. 
AJ, miller, david, staq, spoony, buchanan, laryea, Ugbo, Kone, waterman, kennedy. 

What am i missing here?

[phresh]

https://www.mountroyalsoccer.com/platform/amp/2017/7/23/16012082/is-a-golden-generation-on-the-horizon-for-canadian-mens-soccer

[Bigandy]

6 hours ago, phresh said:

https://www.mountroyalsoccer.com/platform/amp/2017/7/23/16012082/is-a-golden-generation-on-the-horizon-for-canadian-mens-soccer

The article itself states that its way too early to call it a golden generation. It then lists the following players for our supposed golden generation.

Sam Adekugbe(22), Raheem Edwards (22), Samuel Piette(22), Michael Petrasso(22), Fraser Aird(22), Luca Gasparotto(22), Juan Cordova(22), Cyle Larin(22) Anthony Jackson-Hamel(23), Manjrekar James(23) and Lucas Cavallini(24)

Larin is the only starter in that group. Sam is close but has phonzie to compete with. Piette and cav are squad players. Everyone else is not with the program. 

To call the above a golden generation is completely wrong.

In the same age range are guys like creapue, st clair, laryea, MAK, cornelius, hiebert, kenendy, Staq, miller, waterman, mcnaughton, ZBG. 

We may have a golden generation today but this article was correct for incorrect reasons. Imagine we trade our current squad for guys like aird, gasparotto and james.   We would never ever ever qualify for Canada. 

[Colonel Green]

7 hours ago, MtlMario said:

Since we're staying off topic, I keep hearing that our Nike deal is one of the worst if not the worst deal ever, how bad were the other competing bids? LOL

Per the report on this, there were no competing bids, the CSA just went to Nike because they were the only supplier they wanted to deal with.

[frmr]

10 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Per the report on this, there were no competing bids, the CSA just went to Nike because they were the only supplier they wanted to deal with.

Nothing like doing your due diligence.

[Bigandy]

39 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Per the report on this, there were no competing bids, the CSA just went to Nike because they were the only supplier they wanted to deal with.

Surely theres a reason to go straight to nike and sign "the worst deal ever". I dont like the deal but I firmly believe there was a reason that the CSA went with Nike, even if its the worst reason in the world.

My guess
1. Nepotism/bribes (unlikely)
2. Womens team want it - But why? (based on a comment earlier in the thread)
3. Better marketing. This would likely mean more sales.....so why would CSA use a strategy of selling shirts and then not have any shirts to sell.....
4. The deal isnt actually a bad deal. Maybe its a fine deal and we just missed out on new WC jerseys because no one at nike or CSA predicted we would qualify? 


Anyone have any insider info or thoughts on this?

[Bison44]

#4, this was all gone over many moons ago.  They needed a year or 18 months to work up a new shirt, like everyone has said, we are not a tier one team, not a priority and as of summer 2021 we were still worried about a haiti upset or what Dutch players would show up for Suriname.  No matter what the 20/20 hindsight people were saying, it wasnt until we beat Costa rica and almost beat mexico in GC that I started to have some hope for Qatar.  By then it was too late.  And if CSA had picked Macron or Umbro half the board would have called it bush league.  We'll get something new now, they have no excuse not to and maybe we'll get better treatment from them in general.  But 2 years ago in the middle of lockdown we were still minnows to Nike.

[El Hombre]

On 4/26/2023 at 8:17 PM, Macksam said:

Considering Canada has a marketable star players now and how there were allegedly better offers on the table from suppliers like Macron, we actually do have some bargaining power now. The CSA didn't think we'd qualify in December of 2018? Anybody with half a brain could see the potential we had from the 2017 Gold Cup performance, it was like watching the 84 Penguins with Lemiuex getting drafted. You're telling me the CSA weren't soccer savvy enough to see that? We didn't have any signs we'd qualify? Is that a joke? 

If the 2017 Gold Cup was a harbinger for 2022 qualfying, then what became of the 2000 (winner), 2002 (3rd) and 2007 (3rd) Gold Cups?

History is not on your side with this one.

 

[red card]

11 hours ago, Bigandy said:

I didnt know all of this. Any idea what our umbro deal was like compared to the new nike deal? 

So basically CSA and the womens team take the blame for forcing through a nike deal (which has legitimate upside on the marketing side) but everything else is nike's responsibility. 

From the women's team perspective, the Nike deal has been good. They got a nice kit for the Olympics and a well received kit for the World Cup. They ran out kits post the Gold medal win for a while but it would likely happened with most kit suppliers given it was unexpected and hard to replenish given covid & supply chain issues compounded by manufacturing in Asia. Umbro would have similar issues as my Canada Umbro kits are all made in China.

It has been subpar to bad for Canada men. Canada Soccer seemed oblivious but kit enthusiasts said it would be bad when the deal was announced. They knew Nike only provides tier 1 service to less than 20 countries at any given time. Given Canada men's historical performance and weak historical kit sales, it was pretty obvious Canada men would only move into Tier 1 closer to 2026.

Some say it is bad deal because no upfront money was paid to Canada Soccer. But this is usually an advance on projected sales. Canada Soccer should still be receiving royalties that are typically <10% per kit sold. And until Canada kits can sell like Nigeria men or US women, no bonus money and partnership benefits should be expected.

Edited April 28, 2023 by red card

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, El Hombre said:

If the 2017 Gold Cup was a harbinger for 2022 qualfying, then what became of the 2000 (winner), 2002 (3rd) and 2007 (3rd) Gold Cups?

History is not on your side with this one.

 

It's a good thing history doesn't hold any weight when it comes to these things,  observing what happens on the field and how players and the team will progress is. 

[SthMelbRed]

6 hours ago, red card said:

From the women's team perspective, the Nike deal has been good. They got a nice kit for the Olympics and a well received kit for the World Cup. They ran out kits post the Gold medal win for a while but it would likely happened with most kit suppliers given it was unexpected and hard to replenish given covid & supply chain issues compounded by manufacturing in Asia. Umbro would have similar issues as my Canada Umbro kits are all made in China.

It has been subpar to bad for Canada men. Canada Soccer seemed oblivious but kit enthusiasts said it would be bad when the deal was announced. They knew Nike only provides tier 1 service to less than 20 countries at any given time. Given Canada men's historical performance and weak historical kit sales, it was pretty obvious Canada men would only move into Tier 1 closer to 2026.

Some say it is bad deal because no upfront money was paid to Canada Soccer. But this is usually an advance on projected sales. Canada Soccer should still be receiving royalties that are typically <10% per kit sold. And until Canada kits can sell like Nigeria men or US women, no bonus money and partnership benefits should be expected.

Interestingly, I was getting on a train in suburban Melbourne yesterday and had to stand aside while a white woman got off wearing a Nigeria shirt from the '18 World Cup.

Perhaps less interestingly, my amateur club wore Nike kits for the past few years and moved to Macron this year. Everybody is over the moon with the style and quality of the new kits. Not a single complaint, apart from the middle-aged Manc who coaches our 4th team. He wanted Adidas, just because. We did have to adjust sizing, though. Guys who wore L in the Nike kits last year are now wearing XXL. I'm in a XXXL goalkeeper shirt for our Masters team.

[Macksam]

9 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

Interestingly, I was getting on a train in suburban Melbourne yesterday and had to stand aside while a white woman got off wearing a Nigeria shirt from the '18 World Cup.

Perhaps less interestingly, my amateur club wore Nike kits for the past few years and moved to Macron this year. Everybody is over the moon with the style and quality of the new kits. Not a single complaint, apart from the middle-aged Manc who coaches our 4th team. He wanted Adidas, just because. We did have to adjust sizing, though. Guys who wore L in the Nike kits last year are now wearing XXL. I'm in a XXXL goalkeeper shirt for our Masters team.

Did she also have an ace of spades tattoo on one of her ankles?