CPL General

[Gopherbashi]

I just stumbled through this season's NWSL Wikipedia article and noticed that most teams are between the 2500 and 5000 marks for attendance.  Does anyone know what kind of budgets or revenue streams those teams are dealing with?

[Alex D]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I'd be careful on making statements like that as there was talk of the fans being told to be ready for a mid-August anouncement at one point on here from what I remember and if it's not Saskatchewan, there are not that many other possibilities. The only obvious problems with where they are right now are the permanent football markings and running track, but there are ways to fix the former if not the latter, which doesn't seem to be seen as an issue on here whenever Moncton gets discussed. In capacity terms the 6000 listed on wikipedia should be fine.

Moncton's stadium is much more modern and ready for a professional team. KWU have a single large grandstand with zero amenities.

The August announcement, if it comes to fruition, may be about a stadium plan. Even though KW lost their Canada games bid the city and club are still engaging in stadium talks. 

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Gopherbashi said:

It's Paul Beirne's way of saying that they'll never in a million years go above 16 teams.

They shouldn't. Too many expansion would be very bad and we'd end up with teams in Charlottetown lol

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

I think the biggest question left unanswered about the CPL is where the players will come from. There is something admirable about graduating PDL/L1O and lower-end USL players for the majority of the player base and picking players from MLS/USL/NASL as high-end players. That preserves a high number of Canadian players, but also basically gives the CPL no chance at beating an MLS team in the near future.

Building a roster on the USL/NASL level will require a sizable number of foreigners, and with no fully-fledged CPL academies coming anytime soon the league will need to continue to rely on foreigners for the next 5ish years.

The CPL wants to be a league for the Canadian player taken seriously by the Canadian spectator, but in the short-term they will likely have to lean in one of those two directions. 

CSA and Beirne wants #1 

Owners #2

Who has the $$$? Owners. 

They will compromise I think but the scale will lean heavily on the owners side. We'll rely on imports for at least, as you said, 5 years. Tweets from the Hamilton group heavily implies that they want to win the V Cup and be competitive sooner rather than later.

CPL II is needed for option 1. To graduate PDL and D3 veterans/great players to D2

[Alex D]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

They shouldn't. Too many expansion would be very bad and we'd end up with teams in Charlottetown lol

Why shouldn't Charlottetown have a pro soccer club? This is why we need Pro Rel. Every club finds it's own level. 

Paul often speaks of having 40-60 clubs. I believe he is very sincere in his goals. 

[mpg_29]

4 hours ago, Kent said:

I feel like the domestic player issue has been talked to death already in the past but I'm going to foolishly weigh in again.

How is it hard to understand why they would want to be aggressive with the number of Canadians playing? A big part of this league is to have a place for Canadians to play, officiate, and coach. If we fill the rosters with cheap CONCACAF players instead of Canadian players, then we end up developing those countries rather than our own, and our standing within CONCACAF drops even further.

As for the TFC analogy, that really doesn't fit. Sure TFC was a terrible team for a long time, and sure part of that was probably due to the roster rules demanding they have a lot of Canadians. However, the massive difference is that TFC had different roster rules from the other teams in their league. They sucked compared to the teams they were playing against, which meant they didn't score many goals and didn't win many games, which can sap the excitement out of it for a lot of fans. In the CPL, presumably all teams will have the same roster rules, so sure the overall level of play might not be stellar with largely Canadian rosters, but it's not like every team in the league will struggle to win games. Struggle to win against MLS teams in the Voyageurs Cup, sure, but in the league it would be a level playing field.

There has to be balance...with edge going towards allowing teams to field the best team possible (ie good product) that people will want to watch vs. mandating a high amount of Canadian/aggressively limiting foreigners. Like I have said before a lot of people foolishly view this league as a pseudo CANMNT training program...no successful professional sports league operates with that as the main premise.

Edited July 24, 2017 by mpg_29

[ironcub14]

5 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The 16 team thing before considering implementing pro/rel looks more like a way to keep pro/rel crazies quiet than anything else.

I would sincerely bet that, if CPL gets past the 10-year mark with success, that by year 30, let's say 2049 or so, that we should expect at minimum a CPL1 and a CPL2, with at minimum 12 clubs each, for 24 clubs in total.

At minimum. We've got a lot of recent precedents to work with here. Worrying about the short-term, with the long-term in mind. By far the biggest thing PB and co has to avoid is single entity. You avoid single entity, and everything else will work out in due course.

[harrycoyster]

12 minutes ago, Alex D said:

Why shouldn't Charlottetown have a pro soccer club? This is why we need Pro Rel. Every club finds it's own level. 

Paul often speaks of having 40-60 clubs. I believe he is very sincere in his goals. 

The size of Canada, infrastructure issues, and the instability of leagues/teams in pro/rel systems makes it entirely nonviable for Canada in the next 20 years. Countries like Russia and Mexico still struggle with pro/rel because of these issues. Even to get the Mexican version of pro/rel would require MLS-levels of league stability.

[harrycoyster]

1 minute ago, ironcub14 said:

I would sincerely bet that, if CPL gets past the 10-year mark with success, that by year 30, let's say 2049 or so, that we should expect at minimum a CPL1 and a CPL2, with at minimum 12 clubs each, for 24 clubs in total.

At minimum. We've got a lot of recent precedents to work with here. Worrying about the short-term, with the long-term in mind. By far the biggest thing PB and co has to avoid is single entity. You avoid single entity, and everything else will work out in due course.

I've still yet to hear from anyone why a first and second division of 12 teams each is better for Canadian soccer than a first division of 24 teams. From an economic standpoint, one 24 team league is considerably more powerful.

[SuperCanuck]

I would really like to put the pro/rel debate to bed for good.  I would love to have promotion and relegation in a Canadian league. It would be great to see small teams be successful and get promoted and attempt to stay up the following year...

But it's not going to happen, not in my lifetime anyway.  

[Ansem]

25 minutes ago, Alex D said:

Why shouldn't Charlottetown have a pro soccer club? This is why we need Pro Rel. Every club finds it's own level. 

Paul often speaks of having 40-60 clubs. I believe he is very sincere in his goals. 

I meant a D1 expansion 

[mpg_29]

11 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I've still yet to hear from anyone why a first and second division of 12 teams each is better for Canadian soccer than a first division of 24 teams. From an economic standpoint, one 24 team league is considerably more powerful.

two tiers could allow flexibility in salary caps/floors. this would only matter of course if CPL became really big..

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

Even with just 10 Canadian players on each team that would be a absolute min of 60 Canadian players to find..if there are 8 teams and ~15 Canadians on each team then you are looking at upwards of 120 Canadian players...where exactly are they going to come from?...I guess they could poach a lot of the players out of League 1/PLSQ...

Having watched TSS Rovers this year, with mostly CDN university players, there is some talent there. Enough to round out a roster here and there, and in some cases, rare perhaps, start. I think we underestimate how wide the base is. We also have a fair no of NCAA kids out there, recent graduates who were never drafted, whose level should be close for their age and experience. 

We have lots of kids in lower tiers in Europe, at subsistence, who could only hang on so long in those circumstances. 

My personal feeling is that you have to make your team, compete, and if you hold up, great, even if you are playing with guys who have simply stepped up and who would not make any obvious list of a CPL potential roster. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 2017-07-22 at 3:51 PM, stevensandor said:

The team that wins the spring season gets a 1 or 2 seed in the NASL playoffs. So, if you win the spring season, you are obligated to play in the playoffs come November. So, there is no "playing the spring season and leaving"

Agreed, unless you were really screwing the NASL and felt like shooting yourself in the foot by pulling out in those terms. 

Steven, btw, had to say, your article on Alberta competing independently at the Gold Cup, very witty and clever. https://the11.ca/its-time-for-alberta-to-field-a-team-in-the-gold-cup/

[harrycoyster]

25 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Having watched TSS Rovers this year, with mostly CDN university players, there is some talent there.

I don't know man...TSS Rovers just finished last in a division of the PDL that is mostly lower end American college players and USL rejects. I appreciate that they give non-MLS collegiate Canadians a place to play in the summer, but they finished below Lane United, which is basically the University of Portland summer/redshirt team. Clearly there are better players out there.

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I don't know man...TSS Rovers just finished last in a division of the PDL that is mostly lower end American college players and USL rejects. I appreciate that they give non-MLS collegiate Canadians a place to play in the summer, but they finished below Lane United, which is basically the University of Portland summer/redshirt team. Clearly there are better players out there.

Ok, don't want to exaggerate, but there is still talent there, and players ready to step up. And as for their results, they were close on a lot of matches, and lost points dumbly a few times. 

Where do you think players would come from, then, USL? Higher level NCAA? Are you sure, for example, that the L10 Ontario players are clearly better than the Ontario PDL players?

[harrycoyster]

Just now, Unnamed Trialist said:

Ok, don't want to exaggerate, but there is still talent there, and players ready to step up. And as for their results, they were close on a lot of matches, and lost points dumbly a few times. 

Where do you think players would come from, then, USL? Higher level NCAA? Are you sure, for example, that the L10 Ontario players are clearly better than the Ontario PDL players?

Personally, I hope that they take the best Canadian players from L1O/PDL/NCAA and pick up some lower-end Canadian NASL/USL players with a few marquee MLS names like Osorio or Bernier here or there for attendance purposes. But I'm somebody who has always been okay with the CPL being a development league that is 80-90% Canadian with the objective of expanding the academy system and pushing as many Canadians players into MLS as possible. I believe this is the belief held by VM and the league organisers.

As I understand it, the owners are looking to build the best league possible from the start, with the goal of competing with the Canadian MLS teams by 2022. In that case, I'd imagine the majority of the player base will come from the USL/NASL and smaller European leagues, with the top 15% and bottom 15% of the rosters coming from MLS and PDL/L1O respectively. There is little chance this version of the league has a better than 50/50 ratio of Canadians to foreigners. 

Which mindset wins out? Hard to say until the first few signings are made. 

[Alex D]

1 hour ago, SuperCanuck said:

I would really like to put the pro/rel debate to bed for good.  I would love to have promotion and relegation in a Canadian league. It would be great to see small teams be successful and get promoted and attempt to stay up the following year...

But it's not going to happen, not in my lifetime anyway.  

This was my line of thought until PB himself started bringing it up.  

[Complete Homer]

2 hours ago, Alex D said:

Moncton's stadium is much more modern and ready for a professional team. KWU have a single large grandstand with zero amenities.

The August announcement, if it comes to fruition, may be about a stadium plan. Even though KW lost their Canada games bid the city and club are still engaging in stadium talks. 

Though they have at least entertained the idea of a university stadium. Far from ideal but it might be their way of getting in earlier if it's acceptable to the rest of the league

[stevensandor]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Agreed, unless you were really screwing the NASL and felt like shooting yourself in the foot by pulling out in those terms. 

Steven, btw, had to say, your article on Alberta competing independently at the Gold Cup, very witty and clever. https://the11.ca/its-time-for-alberta-to-field-a-team-in-the-gold-cup/

Thanks!

[Kent]

3 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

There has to be balance...with edge going towards allowing teams to field the best team possible (ie good product) that people will want to watch vs. mandating a high amount of Canadian/aggressively limiting foreigners. Like I have said before a lot of people foolishly view this league as a pseudo CANMNT training program...no successful professional sports league operates with that as the main premise.

Sure, you disagree with a high domestic quota. You can disagree and still understand the rationale behind someone else's opinion. I just found it a bit ridiculous to read someone say they don't understand why the CPL would have more than a bare bones domestic quota (I don't recall off the top of my head the numbers that Beirne said they would be more aggressive than).

[Rocket Robin]

This was just held over the weekend in Toronto.  It appears Jamaica is not ignoring looking to Canada for potential players.   Maybe five years too late to sway Jordan Hamilton and/or Kadeisha Buchanan but maybe they'll ID a few potential national team players if their camp was a success.     

 

 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Rocket Robin

[ironcub14]

16 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

I've still yet to hear from anyone why a first and second division of 12 teams each is better for Canadian soccer than a first division of 24 teams. From an economic standpoint, one 24 team league is considerably more powerful.

I've never seen this question posed but I'll take a crack at it.

I think eventually, the keyword being eventually, many of us would like to see CPL gradually find greater financial success, enough so that it can eventually absorb the transportation costs and not have to worry about things like conferences to mitigate travel costs. As great as it is to encourage derbies and local rivalries, it would be nice if CPL could avoid conferences, go with single tables, and even consider balanced schedules in the future. Basically, avoid the route MLS took on this particular issue, although I would implement playoffs in the early years of CPL, even with a single table.

And on that note, I'm totally cool if CPL expands to 16 teams or 20 teams, god willing, and remains a one-tier league as of 2050 or so. This is all fantasyland already. But if CPL somehow has enough interested cities and owners around Canada to go beyond 20 teams into 24 or so, then I'd much rather CPL consider a CPL1 and a CPL2 and bring in p/r, rather than go with conferences or some other bullcrap and be the kind of ugly monstrosity that MLS is now becoming with its 22 teams going on 28 going on 32, with a MLS2 not in sight due to single entity. My heart can't take these 20+ team footy leagues in North America, with no p/r in sight. My take.

All this is with the year 2050 in mind, by the way, long-term goals. And the benefit for Canadian soccer? Much more fierce competition and compelling football among Canadian pro CPL soccer teams, with an artificial floor created in a closed 2-tier system, although this could always be expanded upon in future decades.

Edited July 25, 2017 by ironcub14

[ironcub14]

And to add one more thing for why I would like CPL to eventually get into D2 around 2050 or so.

Canada needs legitimate soccer people looking out for its best interests in charge of both D1 and D2. CPL needs to make sure we don't have to deal with our own Riccardo Silva or our own Traffic Sports. Just to take one example, remember that guy that was on the forum about 6-12 months ago, talking about how he had an alternate Canadian soccer league scheme, with Centennial Park as the centrepiece?

And by far the best way to ensure that we can have a future CPL2 to talk about is for the owners to avoid creating CPL as a single entity. That's it. As long as that's resolved with a high degree of revenue sharing agreements, the league sets itself up for success and flexibility in the long term both legally and sporting-wise, and having to avoid all this incredible nonsense we're seeing with USSF, MLS, NASL and USL the past decade or so.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

11 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

...remember that guy that was on the forum about 6-12 months ago, talking about how he had an alternate Canadian soccer league scheme, with Centennial Park as the centrepiece?

Futballer (?) was very much one of the compete head-to-head with MLS brigade along with several other GTA based people, which now doesn't appear to be what the investors actually have in mind. Think he was claiming that a business plan that he sent to the CSA was the spark that set the train in motion where CPL is concerned more than it being an alternate plan. Reviews were to put it politely somewhat mixed on here as to whether that was likely to be accurate or not.