CPL General

[ironcub14]

17 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Futballer (?) was very much one of the compete head-to-head with MLS brigade along with several other GTA based people, which now doesn't appear to be what the investors actually have in mind. Think he was claiming that a business plan that he sent to the CSA was the spark that set the train in motion where CPL is concerned more than it being an alternate plan. Reviews were to put it politely somewhat mixed on here as to whether that was likely to be accurate or not.

Based on the posts I read from that guy, I hope he had somebody else write the business plan for him.

[Rheo]

Just a general recap article on the league, updated with new info.  A good Coles Notes for newcomers on the board

https://www.wakingthered.com/2017/5/12/15628730/canadian-premier-league-news-rumours-cpl-soccer-hamilton-winnipeg-canpl

[dyslexic nam]

17 hours ago, Ansem said:

They shouldn't. Too many expansion would be very bad and we'd end up with teams in Charlottetown lol

*cough*

 

Careful...

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

*cough*

 

Careful...

Lol I meant to say as a Division 1 expansion. Charlottetown should have a Division 2 club

Off topic: Can I change my account name to "Grey Worm"?

Edited July 25, 2017 by Ansem

[dyslexic nam]

I have weighed in on the Canadian vs foreign player pool issue before, but will do so again because... the alternative is actually doing work.

While I get the argument that supporter culture will be a major determinant in league success, I still think that on-field product quality (sorry to commodify the game, but CPL is a commercial venture at its heart) has to be good enough that casuals don't get immediately turned off.  That means a level of play that is decent.  And I am not sure if it can do that with a heavy domestic player requirement - at least initially, when populating a whole new league will put demand-side pressure on all the player pools discussed (USL, NASL, some lower MLS, etc).  Thus I would be willing to accept a higher % of foreign (likely CONCACAF) players at the outset, as long as the leagues constitutional documents/structure outlined a steady, mandated progression towards increasing numbers of domestic players.  That sort of mechanism would:

- entrench the increasing domestic quotas so that they couldn't be an inconvenient detail later overturned by owners;

- ensure the Canadian identity of the league as a selling point;

- incentivize the rapid creation of effective developmental academies; and

- limit the budgetary pressures that would result from needing to sign a league's worth of domestic players from existing markets (which would give journeymen players in other markets the ability to demand inflated CPL wages or a strong lever to renegotiate improved contracts with their current employers);

 

[toontownman]

12 hours ago, Rocket Robin said:

This was just held over the weekend in Toronto.  It appears Jamaica is not ignoring looking to Canada for potential players.   Maybe five years too late to sway Jordan Hamilton and/or Kadeisha Buchanan but maybe they'll ID a few potential national team players if their camp was a success.     

 

 

Move over whitecaps. The Toronto Blizzard now hates Canada. 

I don't know anything about this here, so apologies for the ignorance but is this type of camp common place across the world. Do we do this in other countries? 

Why are other countries able to come to ours and poach players in such a public manner? More so why are Canadian companies sponsoring it?

[dyslexic nam]

3 minutes ago, toontownman said:

Move over whitecaps. The Toronto Blizzard now hates Canada. 

I don't know anything about this here, so apologies for the ignorance but is this type of camp common place across the world. Do we do this in other countries? 

Why are other countries able to come to ours and poach players in such a public manner? More so why are Canadian companies sponsoring it?

Yeah, this seems like an odd place to discuss this issue, but since it was raised here - wtf?  Are we that accommodating that we will not only allow, but facilitate, another national team coming here to poach potential dual nationals.  And a longstanding Canadian soccer organization is co-hosting this mutiny?  And it is being done in the immediate wake of that country eliminating us from our regional championship (and in advance of a "friendly" that will give the competing team even more exposure)?

What the serious fuck is that all about?

[ironcub14]

13 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Yeah, this seems like an odd place to discuss this issue, but since it was raised here - wtf?  Are we that accommodating that we will not only allow, but facilitate, another national team coming here to poach potential dual nationals.  And a longstanding Canadian soccer organization is co-hosting this mutiny?  And it is being done in the immediate wake of that country eliminating us from our regional championship (and in advance of a "friendly" that will give the competing team even more exposure)?

What the serious fuck is that all about?

I thought a businessman just bought the Blizzard trademark the last couple years or so and is using it for a new academy that peters out at a L1O women's side at the moment max. Not a longstanding Canadian soccer organization at all, I don't think.

[dyslexic nam]

17 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

I thought a businessman just bought the Blizzard trademark the last couple years or so and is using it for a new academy that peters out at a L1O women's side at the moment max. Not a longstanding Canadian soccer organization at all, I don't think.

That is sad. (and now I remember reading something about it on here a while back)

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

56 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Lol I meant to say as a Division 1 expansion. Charlottetown should have a Division 2 club

If Regina (metro area: 236,000) and Saskatoon (metro area: 295,000) are part of the discussion as the two short-listed possibilities for franchise #7 the league is obviously being geared towards relatively small markets right from the start.

[harrycoyster]

1 hour ago, ironcub14 said:

I've never seen this question posed but I'll take a crack at it.

I think eventually, the keyword being eventually, many of us would like to see CPL gradually find greater financial success, enough so that it can eventually absorb the transportation costs and not have to worry about things like conferences to mitigate travel costs. As great as it is to encourage derbies and local rivalries, it would be nice if CPL could avoid conferences, go with single tables, and even consider balanced schedules in the future. Basically, avoid the route MLS took on this particular issue, although I would implement playoffs in the early years of CPL, even with a single table.

And on that note, I'm totally cool if CPL expands to 16 teams or 20 teams, god willing, and remains a one-tier league as of 2050 or so. This is all fantasyland already. But if CPL somehow has enough interested cities and owners around Canada to go beyond 20 teams into 24 or so, then I'd much rather CPL consider a CPL1 and a CPL2 and bring in p/r, rather than go with conferences or some other bullcrap and be the kind of ugly monstrosity that MLS is now becoming with its 22 teams going on 28 going on 32, with a MLS2 not in sight due to single entity. My heart can't take these 20+ team footy leagues in North America, with no p/r in sight. My take.

All this is with the year 2050 in mind, by the way, long-term goals. And the benefit for Canadian soccer? Much more fierce competition and compelling football among Canadian pro CPL soccer teams, with an artificial floor created in a closed 2-tier system, although this could always be expanded upon in future decades.

Argentina has a 30 team league, and the head of the Argentinian federation has said that he would further expand the league if more teams had large fanbases. Your argument is basically that you like the way the big European leagues are structured. I get that. But the fact remains that every practical, economic, and developmental metric that I can think of benefits from a 24 team league, over a 12 team league and a 12 team minor league below it. I question the notion that pro/rel leads to much more fierce competition. I think that is looking at the big leagues like the EPL and Bundesliga with blinders and not looking at the state of pro/rel in the rest of the world. In Mexico, the second division is basically the USL, most teams aren't even allowed to get promoted and those that are rely on Liga MX loan players because there is no money in the league. For many of the smaller European leagues, the second division is basically a club graveyard. You win promotion within a few seasons of going down or you are forced to sell your roster, compounding the problem. In Russia, the FA removed the academy mandates on the second division so clubs could stay alive. Japan, likely the best example of a "new" soccer country implementing pro/rel that wasn't a complete disaster, has had a slew of issues with funding second division teams and implemented the licence system to prevent teams without proper stadiums from gaining promotion. Japan still has a soccer infrastructure problem, largely because J-League owners don't want to invest in building 30,000 seat SSS when the median attendance of the second division is only around 6,000. If they get relegated they go bankrupt. 

Maybe if we get to 28 teams a 18 team top division and a 10 league second division makes sense, but it would still be of questionable value. Pro/rel is only really advantageous when the second division in the country is thriving. That is an exceedingly rare occurrence.

[Ansem]

54 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

If Regina (metro area: 236,000) and Saskatoon (metro area: 295,000) are part of the discussion as the two short-listed possibilities for franchise #7 the league is obviously being geared towards relatively small markets right from the start.

It's also about the necessity of representation. You're not much of a "Canadian" league if you're not in every province short of PEI where we all agree is too small.

The CFL and the Lacrosse team also proves that if CPL is supported in Saskatchewan, we don't have to worry about those 2 cities population size

Edited July 25, 2017 by Ansem

[ironcub14]

59 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Argentina has a 30 team league, and the head of the Argentinian federation has said that he would further expand the league if more teams had large fanbases. Your argument is basically that you like the way the big European leagues are structured. I get that. But the fact remains that every practical, economic, and developmental metric that I can think of benefits from a 24 team league, over a 12 team league and a 12 team minor league below it. I question the notion that pro/rel leads to much more fierce competition. I think that is looking at the big leagues like the EPL and Bundesliga with blinders and not looking at the state of pro/rel in the rest of the world. In Mexico, the second division is basically the USL, most teams aren't even allowed to get promoted and those that are rely on Liga MX loan players because there is no money in the league. For many of the smaller European leagues, the second division is basically a club graveyard. You win promotion within a few seasons of going down or you are forced to sell your roster, compounding the problem. In Russia, the FA removed the academy mandates on the second division so clubs could stay alive. Japan, likely the best example of a "new" soccer country implementing pro/rel that wasn't a complete disaster, has had a slew of issues with funding second division teams and implemented the licence system to prevent teams without proper stadiums from gaining promotion. Japan still has a soccer infrastructure problem, largely because J-League owners don't want to invest in building 30,000 seat SSS when the median attendance of the second division is only around 6,000. If they get relegated they go bankrupt. 

Maybe if we get to 28 teams a 18 team top division and a 10 league second division makes sense, but it would still be of questionable value. Pro/rel is only really advantageous when the second division in the country is thriving. That is an exceedingly rare occurrence.

Without getting into the specifics of various countries where it does thrive and does not, because we could be here all day, I'd think that it's something to strive for in Canada to have CPL lead the cause for a thriving second division/D2 two-three decades from now, wouldn't you agree? I do appreciate you discussing Japan, because theirs and the K-League are the model for what I hope CPL follows generally, the best "new" professional soccer leagues we have as recent examples.

How do we avoid the examples you discussed above, such as these weak D2's in Mexico, Russia and Japan? By ensuring that we fill out the Canadian soccer pyramid from top-down, rather than from bottom-up. By having CPL take the lead on filling out the D2 later on, when it can. And putting floors on wherever needed, limit pro/rel to two tiers at first, and go from there. Revenue sharing, parachute payments, all that.

Just a quick note on Argentina that one of my best friends is an Argentinean, and we constantly ask him if Julio Grondona came back from the grave and teamed up with a coked-up Maradona to come up with the idea to expand the Argentine Primera Division from 20 teams to 30 in the span of one year. He said he wondered the same thing. I'm speaking for myself only, but I'm not looking purely at the Prem and Bundesliga with blinders on when I talk about a closed two-tiered pro/rel system, I'm considering many other leagues around the world as well.

Edited July 25, 2017 by ironcub14

[Ansem]

I think we'll hit 16 sooner rather than later. Were already at 10 expression of interest and assuming the league plans to set aside 3 spots for Montreal Island, Toronto and Vancouver Metro with the right ownership (the more loaded the better), that's not a lot of team left to go to 16.

Also D2 having most likely different financial requirements would realistically attract way more bids than D1 which seems to require very deep pockets. D2 teams strapped with a heavy Canadian content would be far less expensive to run than D1, thus within means of way more investors who can't afford D1. With the hope of one day promoting to D1, that makes an investment at that level even more attractive. Wouldn't be surprised if cities like Sherbrooke, Kelowna and even Gatineau will all jump on a D2 bid...more so if CPL is a success

I think we're talking Division 2 and pro/rel post 2026 World Cup (country will be on a soccer high) with a 2030 start...just a hunch

Edited July 25, 2017 by Ansem

[harrycoyster]

12 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

Without getting into the specifics of various countries where it does thrive and does not, because we could be here all day, I'd think that it's something to strive for in Canada to have CPL lead the cause for a thriving second division/D2 two-three decades from now, wouldn't you agree? I do appreciate you discussing Japan, because theirs and the K-League are the model for what I hope CPL follows generally, the best "new" professional soccer leagues we have as recent examples.

How do we avoid the examples you discussed above, such as these weak D2's in Mexico, Russia and Japan? By ensuring that we fill out the Canadian soccer pyramid from top-down, rather than from bottom-up. By having CPL take the lead on filling out the D2 later on, when it can.

I understand your point, and agree that I'd love for us to have 3 stable division in 2050. I'm just pointing out the obvious draw backs. If you compare the progress made in investment, youth development and SS infrastructure in Japan/Korea to that of the US in the past 10 years it isn't even close. A lot of that has to do with the stress relegation puts on all but the very top teams in the Asian leagues. The stability of MLS has done wonders for soccer in the US. That isn't to say they won't outgrow the MLS structure and be in a place where pro/rel is viable soon, but we certainly won't be at that point for decades.

Edited July 25, 2017 by harrycoyster

[dyslexic nam]

5 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Also D2 having most likely different financial requirements would realistically attract way more bids than D1 which seems to require very deep pockets. D2 teams strapped with a heavy Canadian content would be far less expensive to run than D1, thus within means of way more investors who can't afford D1. With the hope of one day promoting to D1, that makes an investment at that level even more attractive. Wouldn't be surprised if cities like Sherbrooke, Kelowna and even Gatineau will all jump on a D2 bid...more so if CPL is a success

Maybe there would even be room for those potato-eating hobos from PEI.

[ironcub14]

2 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I understand your point, and agree that I'd love for us to have 3 stable division in 2050. I'm just pointing out the obvious draw backs. If you compare the progress made in investment, youth development and SS infrastructure in Japan/Korea to that of the US in the past 10 years it isn't even close. A lot of that has to do with the stress relegation puts on all but the very top teams in the Asian leagues. The stability of MLS has done wonders for soccer in the US. That isn't to say they won't outgrow the MLS structure and be in a place where pro/rel is viable soon, but we certainly aren't that point yet.

Good points, and why I could imagine, we could see a D2 earlier than this perhaps, it's not necessarily conditional on the other, but that we shouldn't have pro/rel for CPL until 2050 at least. I'm hoping 32 years from now is a good enough timeline for these CPL1 clubs to expand the long-term football infrastructure outside the big 3

[Ansem]

Just now, dyslexic nam said:

Maybe there would even be room for those potato-eating hobos from PEI.

Aww c'mon man, you know I meant that a PEI team would work better as D2 due to population lol. Top 2 tier needs to be in every provinces.

We should annex Turks and Caicos and put a team there too

[dyslexic nam]

All for grabbing T&C.

And for the record, a footy team here would be a hard sell. Not because the sport isn't popular here (we tend to punch above or weight when it comes to footy), but because most people use the summer to squeeze in as much beach time, boating time, and just general hedonism as possible.  Would make it a tough sell to try and get a committed core of fans to show up on a sunny evening when lots of folks are partying at Basin Head or Brackley Beach.

[Bison44]

NAM, are you in T&C? I saw a CBC program years ago about annexng the islands.  Is this something that the residents would be interested at all or just joking around?

[dyslexic nam]

Nah.  PEIslander.  Proud and cantankerous.   Summers here can be pretty awesome, so people really try to fit in as much fun as they can during about a 3-month period. 

As for T&C, I am all for it.  I say that as someone who would love to have preferential access to a Caribbean paradise to escape the other edge of the PEI sword - the dreaded Island winter.  PEI in July can be majestic.  February, not so much...

[Gordon]

23 minutes ago, Ansem said:

It's also about the necessity of representation. You're not much of a "Canadian" league if you're not in every province short of PEI where we all agree is too small.

The CFL and the Lacrosse team also proves that if CPL is supported in Saskatchewan, we don't have to worry about those 2 cities population size

The league has been very open about their threshold being 200-250K from early on, so it's hardly a revelation. Bierne mention his vision of eventually maybe 5 teams in the GTA at the Sask meet & greet for example. 

[rob.notenboom]

Of course a PEI SG would be called the Spud Buds. 

[Complete Homer]

16 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

NAM, are you in T&C? I saw a CBC program years ago about annexng the islands.  Is this something that the residents would be interested at all or just joking around?

Apparently when it was first discussed (in modern history at least, there have been historic attempts) it was T&C that approached Canada, but Canada was afraid of looking imperialistic and the cost associated with integration. Last I read though the local politics have moved on from the idea 

[Rheo]

3 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

Of course a PEI SG would be called the Spud Buds. 

Why do I have a feeling there's going to be so much Stompin' Tom references with the league