2017 Toronto FC season (aka the 2017 MLS Cup clinching thread)

[BearcatSA]

1 minute ago, Gian-Luca said:

He should have had one tonight as he looked slow and tired.

Foxboro's turf is a knee joint destroyer, especially for tired legs.

[Gian-Luca]

If one ever needs evidence that the Opta stats can be completely erroneous (never mind misleading), Ben Spencer was listed as TFC's third best player on the night after Ricketts (who was great) and Bradley (who stunk out the joint and helped to cause 2 goals against - though I'm inclined to blame Vanney as much here for playing him two days after a flight from the West coast with a ton of recent games under his belt). So the guy who missed about 4 chances to score while contributing very little else gets a better rating than Osorio, who helped to create all three TFC goals.

[BearcatSA]

Watched Spencer pretty closely tonight and I thought he looked, both technically and tactically, over his head.  His movement off the ball wasn't very helpful to the attack and he lost possession too easily because of his technical flaws.

The team really missed Vazquez's decisive creativity out there this evening, especially in the first half when they had a good chunk of possession. 

[jonovision]

18 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

He should have had one tonight as he looked slow and tired.

Goals #2 (or #3?) and #5 were both counterattacks from Bradley giveaways.

[Gian-Luca]

4 minutes ago, jonovision said:

Goals #2 (or #3?) and #5 were both counterattacks from Bradley giveaways.

I believe it was just goal #3 - Zavaleta gave the ball away for goal #2 (and half-caused #1) but Bradley didn't help matters by not closing down Donadel - it may have been that he was worried that he would slip the ball past him to a wide open Impact player and he didn't get any help from Delgado on the play either. Cooper gave the ball away for goal #5 while Beitashour was the goat on #4, which perhaps was the back-breaker. But overall Bradley just didn't give the same level of effort as he normally does. He just looked tired and understandably so - but there's not much point in boasting about team depth if you keep playing the same players over and over again even when they clearly need a rest.

Ah well. Better to get a performance like this (and the over-due first home loss in almost a calendar year) out of the way now than in the playoffs.

[Gian-Luca]

12 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

.

The team really missed Vazquez's decisive creativity out there this evening, especially in the first half when they had a good chunk of possession. 

While I think this was true, if you score 3 goals at home without Giovinco, Altidore and Vazquez seeing the field, you have to be playing pretty poorly defensively to still not pick up a single point and there's only so much he'd have been able to do in that regard.

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, Gian-Luca said:

While I think this was true, if you score 3 goals at home without Giovinco, Altidore and Vazquez seeing the field, you have to be playing pretty poorly defensively to still not pick up a single point and there's only so much he'd have been able to do in that regard.

Defensive issues and brain cramps were abound in this game.   And not just with TFC.  It was shocking to see the number chances (mostly off of Spencer's head) that the Impact gave up late in the second half.  At a time when they were coasting and with a comfortble lead and thus should have been tightening up and closing it down.  By my count, Spencers had four good uncontested chances that he failed to convert.  Ricketts also had a clear cut chance in extra time.   Thats too much, and obviously, thats why they are below the red line. 

[Free kick]

57 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

Watched Spencer pretty closely tonight and I thought he looked, both technically and tactically, over his head.  His movement off the ball wasn't very helpful to the attack and he lost possession too easily because of his technical flaws.

The team really missed Vazquez's decisive creativity out there this evening, especially in the first half when they had a good chunk of possession. 

He didnt convert his chances.  And there were good ones.  Thats what i took away from his performances.   It doesnt look like he will ever be the kind of player that will ever be about movement.  Looks like a Garret Kush and a Carlo Cozzazin in regards to movement so he will have to convert his chances

On the flip side,   he did get chances,  so thats the thread he could still hang on to. 

[Dub Narcotic]

15 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Defensive issues and brain cramps were abound in this game.   And not just with TFC.  It was shocking to see the number chances (mostly off of Spencer's head) that the impact gave up late in the second half.  At a time when they were coasting and with a comfortble lead and thus should have been tightening up and closing it down.  By my count, Spencers had four good uncontested chances that he failed to convert.  Ricketts also had a clear cut chance in extra time.   Thats too much, and obviously, thats why they are below the red line. 

Not a Spencer fan, but uncontested? He got punched in the head on his main chance and won some headers off of corners where he was wrestling with a CB the entire time.

[Free kick]

15 minutes ago, Dub Narcotic said:

Not a Spencer fan, but uncontested? He got punched in the head on his main chance and won some headers off of corners where he was wrestling with a CB the entire time.

I wasnt even thinking about the one where he got punched in the head.  When i saw that play i immediately thought of the 82 world cup with Schumacher on Battiston.  Although, on that one, it wasnt exactly a punch. 

I should also add, i just watched the the replay on the goals, two of them, were some of the best i've seen this year.  I am thinking about the Donnadel and Piatti goals.    I wanted to see if Bono had any chance on the Donnadel strike.  And sure enough, no way.  That might be goal of the year candidate in MLS.

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Gian-Luca said:

While I think this was true, if you score 3 goals at home without Giovinco, Altidore and Vazquez seeing the field, you have to be playing pretty poorly defensively to still not pick up a single point and there's only so much he'd have been able to do in that regard.

Even when TFC was down 3 after 20 minutes they were afforded a lot of possession in the attacking third but didn't really do a whole lot with it.  It pads the analytics of some guys but not much else. 

 

 

[gator]

That was a strange match but not totally shocking, anything can happen in a derby with one team desperate and the other resting stars! Jackson Hamel took his goals well, I thought Osorio had a very strong match although there will be some who disagree, Ricketts was isolated for large portions of the match even after Vanney brought his pet project in to pair up with him! Speaking of Spencer, he just looks out of his league to me, offers very little besides height which he doesn't seem to use well and makes many technical errors, I would like to hear how Vanney explains playing this guy ahead of Hamilton who has actually scored in this league!

[Gian-Luca]

1 hour ago, Free kick said:

 By my count, Spencers had four good uncontested chances that he failed to convert.

Not only did he not convert them, he doesn't even get them on target or force the keeper to make a save. But having seen him miss similar chances for TFC II on a regular basis, I knew that he was never in any danger in scoring tonight. Across TFC & TFC II this season, Hamilton has 7 times as many goals as Spencer does, yet the latter gets the call when we need a couple of goals.

[gator]

6 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Not only did he not convert them, he doesn't even get them on target or force the keeper to make a save. But having seen him miss similar chances for TFC II on a regular basis, I knew that he was never in any danger in scoring tonight. Across TFC & TFC II this season, Hamilton has 7 times as many goals as Spencer does, yet the latter gets the call when we need a couple of goals.

This is my issue, Vanney claims that Spencer is the most natural replacement for Altidore, they are both big guys but that's where the similarities end! I don't  dislike  Spencer, I wish him the best recovering from some terrible injuries, my issue is he has jumped the queue ahead of Hamilton and caused Babouli's release without looking as good as either of them because he has a history with Vanney, the optics of this aren't good from the way I see it!

[jonovision]

8 hours ago, Free kick said:

Defensive issues and brain cramps were abound in this game.   And not just with TFC.  It was shocking to see the number chances (mostly off of Spencer's head) that the Impact gave up late in the second half.  At a time when they were coasting and with a comfortble lead and thus should have been tightening up and closing it down.  By my count, Spencers had four good uncontested chances that he failed to convert.  Ricketts also had a clear cut chance in extra time.   Thats too much, and obviously, thats why they are below the red line. 

Many Boldor specials late in the game. 

[jonovision]

8 hours ago, Free kick said:

I wasnt even thinking about the one where he got punched in the head.  When i saw that play i immediately thought of the 82 world cup with Schumacher on Battiston.  Although, on that one, it wasnt exactly a punch. 

I should also add, i just watched the the replay on the goals, two of them, were some of the best i've seen this year.  I am thinking about the Donnadel and Piatti goals.    I wanted to see if Bono had any chance on the Donnadel strike.  And sure enough, no way.  That might be goal of the year candidate in MLS.

Don't you think that getting a hand to it means he had a chance at saving it? Even TFC-homer Caldwell on the broadcast thought Bono might have liked another chance at that one as he reacted a bit slowly.

[jpg75]

As much as i think Spencer sucks, where's the venom for Zavaleta? That was one of the worst 35 minute starts by a defender i've seen in a while.

The 1st goal mostly his fault, inability to play/control the cross led to his suicide pass back to Bono. Turned the ball over in our half that led to the 2nd goal (Bradley and Bono with some fault too) and then overplayed the pass to Piatti and slipped to give him the space to shoot (Beitashour could have provided better help).

[jonovision]

57 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

As much as i think Spencer sucks, where's the venom for Zavaleta? That was one of the worst 35 minute starts by a defender i've seen in a while.

The 1st goal mostly his fault, inability to play/control the cross led to his suicide pass back to Bono. Turned the ball over in our half that led to the 2nd goal (Bradley and Bono with some fault too) and then overplayed the pass to Piatti and slipped to give him the space to shoot (Beitashour could have provided better help).

Abslutely. That was a nightmare shift and the substitution was a mercy killing as much as it was a tactical swap.

[Dub Narcotic]

This team has been on a record-setting run, I don't think the knives have to come out for one bad performance. I do agree that it's time the media put some heat on Vanney for the Hamilton/Spencer issue, however.

[Bdog]

1 hour ago, jpg75 said:

As much as i think Spencer sucks, where's the venom for Zavaleta? That was one of the worst 35 minute starts by a defender i've seen in a while.

The 1st goal mostly his fault, inability to play/control the cross led to his suicide pass back to Bono. Turned the ball over in our half that led to the 2nd goal (Bradley and Bono with some fault too) and then overplayed the pass to Piatti and slipped to give him the space to shoot (Beitashour could have provided better help).

Zavaleta was terrible this game but has usually been solid otherwise so he gets a pass. Spencer on the other end....

[Bison44]

1 hour ago, jpg75 said:

As much as i think Spencer sucks, where's the venom for Zavaleta? That was one of the worst 35 minute starts by a defender i've seen in a while.

The 1st goal mostly his fault, inability to play/control the cross led to his suicide pass back to Bono. Turned the ball over in our half that led to the 2nd goal (Bradley and Bono with some fault too) and then overplayed the pass to Piatti and slipped to give him the space to shoot (Beitashour could have provided better help).

I think Zaveltta doesnt get the venom because he has been solid in the past and he did get yanked (with a sideline talking to from Vanney). He had a howler of a game but he is still a useful piece of the backline.  

 Spencer doesnt do anything anywhere to justify his minutes and continues to get the chances the more promising Hamilton should be getting.  Just because mumble mouth Caldwell says he brings "presence" to the side 20 times a game doesnt change the fact that he does very little with his size.  He should be going back to TFC2, no TFC3 and spending all practice working on headers.  One of the times he sent a cross into the stands you could see Rickets waving his arms and pleading with him.  "Just get out of the way!!"  And from where I was sitting it was Rickets who scored with 2 headers.  Ugh, I was going to defend Zav but the Spencer red mist took me over.  Rant over....

[BearcatSA]

18 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

. . .while Beitashour was the goat on #4, which perhaps was the back-breaker.

It was a poor play by Beitashour, no doubt, but when you look at the lead up to it, a number of other factors come into play.  After the ball was switched by Delgado from the left to Beitashour, there really only looked to be two passing options for him:  Cooper, drifting towards  the right flank in front of him, which was blocked by an Impact player, and then Spencer in a central area but not really doing anything to make himself truly available to receive a pass (hence my criticism of his movement).  Once Beitashour cut inside, under pressure, there were at least three other impact players well positioned to seal off passing options.  There were no central mid options available so the RB opted to go backwards with his pass, inaccurately played and with disastrous consequences.  I'll have to re-watch that particular play but that was my original impression.

The lack of urgency in the support play, which has been a trademark for this club throughout the season, was pretty poor on that goal considering that it was "Game on!" after the own goal at the end of the half.

Donadel's strike was well taken even though he should have been closed down more effectively but I think the keeper might have done better on that ibe (he's also prone to the odd "switch off" as other younger players)

[AvroArrow]

The only time you choose Ben Spencer over Jordan Hamilton is if you can't reach the peanut butter on the top shelf.

[AvroArrow]

Some interesting stats from the MLS site:

Goals Per 90 Minutes Played

Hamilton - 1.50
Ricketts - 0.74
Giovinco - 0.72
Altidore - 0.61
Spencer - 0.00

Now that doesn't therefore mean that Hamilton and Ricketts are better than Giovinco, so the stat is not by any means a solid measuring stick.  Still, it is interesting none the less.

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 21/9/2017 at 2:52 PM, gator said:

This is my issue, Vanney claims that Spencer is the most natural replacement for Altidore, they are both big guys but that's where the similarities end! I don't  dislike  Spencer, I wish him the best recovering from some terrible injuries, my issue is he has jumped the queue ahead of Hamilton and caused Babouli's release without looking as good as either of them because he has a history with Vanney, the optics of this aren't good from the way I see it!

All these injustices are starting to build as playoffs approach, that locker room is going to be set to boil over by playoff time. Ripe for the taking!!