2016 Red Team Playoff Clinching Watch (aka Toronto FC 2016 MLS season thread)

[BearcatSA]

7 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

You got that right - probably moreso than you were expecting. I'll have to watch the game again but I found it difficult to tell how much of the 5-0 win was from TFC playing well vs. NYCFC playing horribly from the lack of playoff experience (even though they actually had a more experienced team overall). The exception would be the Osorio goal, which was a direct result of NYCFC playing horribly (even if it was taken well).

It was definitely over after the second goal, if not the first.  Then I heard about discord in the MCNAFC (ManCityNorthAmericaFC) camp with Viera's coaching decisions prior to this match.  Combine that with the TFC motivation and you have a cocktail for a sh*t show.  Fortunately, and probably for the first time, TFC were on the good side of such an event.  Good on them.

Can't wait to watch semi-final.

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, Ansem said:

http://www.espnfc.com/major-league-soccer/story/2991725/italy-not-calling-up-sebastian-giovinco-because-mls-doesnt-count-giampiero-ventura

New Italian coach has no love for MLS either

Despite his heroics for Toronto FC, Sebastian Giovinco has been left out of the Italy squad because coach Giampiero Ventura believes "he plays in a league that doesn't count for much."

A day later, Giovinco scored a hat trick as Toronto eliminated New York City FC in the MLS playoffs on Sunday, but Ventura remains unimpressed.

"Giovinco is a different story. I have done everything to help him but the reality is that he plays in a league that doesn't matter much," Ventura said. "And the number of goals he scores is less important because with the quality he has got, he is bound to make a difference in that league.

"The problem is that if you play in that type of league, and you get used to playing in that type of league, it becomes a problem of mentality."

Thing is, it's true. Spain won't call in Villa either. 

There is no way to calibre a player in MLS properly, I mean, why would you call in a striker wreacking havoc against teams the equivalent of Serie B? Most defenders and keepers in MLS are pure 2nd tier journeymen for any of the top European leagues.

Italy plays Spain to get into the next World Cup. Look where the guys play, seriously. I mean, Spain won't even call in a call playing for a club in the bottom half of the league, unless it is some kind of freak club thing (like Inter having a bad year) or player thing (some veteran or a third keeper).

[Unnamed Trialist]

The TFC performance was really amazing, historical killing of NYCity, wonderful, so amazed by the result. 

Montreal was similar, perhaps even harder to achieve, it was more like a classic knock-out second leg, very professional. At least NYRB was not lying down and rolling over like the team from the Bronx.

[Complete Homer]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Thing is, it's true. Spain won't call in Villa either. 

There is no way to calibre a player in MLS properly, I mean, why would you call in a striker wreacking havoc against teams the equivalent of Serie B? Most defenders and keepers in MLS are pure 2nd tier journeymen for any of the top European leagues.

Italy plays Spain to get into the next World Cup. Look where the guys play, seriously. I mean, Spain won't even call in a call playing for a club in the bottom half of the league, unless it is some kind of freak club thing (like Inter having a bad year) or player thing (some veteran or a third keeper).

His point, that goals in MLS mean far less than a top 4 league, is completely correct.

If he is implying that a player is out of contention for a callup because they play in MLS, he is being shortsighted. Say, if Giovinco had put up 30+ goals this year, does he still not warrant a look? There's a difference between adjusting for league difficulty and snobbery. 

[Obinna]

I'm somewhere in the middle on this.

I get that it's difficult to calibrate someone ripping MLS apart, especially when you are not seeing it first hand. If Giovinco was scoring 20-30 goals a year in Serie B, he'd probably get the call as it would be easy to scout him in person. Plus, the style of league would make it easier to gauge where he is at.

At the same time, it's not as if Giovinco is an unknown quantity. I think all of that stuff holds more weight when we are talking about a new player. Giovinco has played in Euros and qualifiers and big matches and I think it's foolish to think he's at a disadvantage mentally. If anything, it's the opposite. He has everything to prove now that he is playing in a "backwater" such as MLS.

[Keegan]

8 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I'm somewhere in the middle on this.

I get that it's difficult to calibrate someone ripping MLS apart, especially when you are not seeing it first hand. If Giovinco was scoring 20-30 goals a year in Serie B, he'd probably get the call as it would be easy to scout him in person. Plus, the style of league would make it easier to gauge where he is at.

At the same time, it's not as if Giovinco is an unknown quantity. I think all of that stuff holds more weight when we are talking about a new player. Giovinco has played in Euros and qualifiers and big matches and I think it's foolish to think he's at a disadvantage mentally. If anything, it's the opposite. He has everything to prove now that he is playing in a "backwater" such as MLS.

I'd get how it would be a tough call to make for a relative unknown i.e. if BWP was Italian and scoring 20+ but Giovinco's quality is just so obvious, we're not talking about a guy who is poaching goals we're talking about a player who is miles ahead in quality and dominates a pretty good level at a level few players around the world do.  You watch him and there's no question that he could fit in just about any squad in the world aside from a few. Even in the UK I've had many people ask me why Giovinco is at Toronto, they see the highlights over here and on social media and can't believe the quality he is showing now that he is finally the go to player on a team.  

As Italian manager there's no chance I could leave the guy off.  He's played his whole life at a top level before MLS and is obviously going to pick his boots up training with the Italian NT in the lead up, it's not like he's going to go out playing at a slow pace or that his footballing mind is gone, clearly not.   Even if he wasn't a starter imagine needing a goal and bringing on Giovinco in his form and confidence? 

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, Keegan said:

I'd get how it would be a tough call to make for a relative unknown i.e. if BWP was Italian and scoring 20+ but Giovinco's quality is just so obvious, we're not talking about a guy who is poaching goals we're talking about a player who is miles ahead in quality and dominates a pretty good level at a level few players around the world do.  You watch him and there's no question that he could fit in just about any squad in the world aside from a few. Even in the UK I've had many people ask me why Giovinco is at Toronto, they see the highlights over here and on social media and can't believe the quality he is showing now that he is finally the go to player on a team.  

Exactly. And being the go-to player on a team is exactly what he needed after his time at Juventus being behind Carlos Tevez and others. Truth be told, he is better now than he ever was.

If he ever moves back to Europe, I hope it is to a mid-level club and not a giant, where he can be the man. That'd be good for him. An Everton, or Real Sociedad, or Fiorentina, or Wolfsburg. That sort of level.

[RickC]

I absolutely love watching Giovinco play. There's a buzz in the stadium whenever he gets the ball in the attacking third of the field. I do agree that his next move (if he makes one) should be to a mid-sized team in a big-4 league. Much as he was a star for Parma, he could be so again for many European sides. I disagree somewhat with the Italian coach about MLS, but Giovinco does have about double the goals per game for Toronto than he did for Parma. Lesser leagues tend to have much poorer defending so one would expect him to be banging in the goals. It would be interesting to see him play against good defending again and then see what he could do.

Other examples to consider are Ciman. Was he not MLS defender of the year, but only played one match for Belgium in the Euros and blamed for one of the goals against (I recall thinking it should have been shared blame, but he was singled out). And Mancosu, leading scorer in Serie B, not scoring in Serie A so loaned to Montreal where he's looking good. So, MLS may be like Serie B (top half of the table?) and no one gets picked for Italy while playing Serie B.

[Gian-Luca]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

At the same time, it's not as if Giovinco is an unknown quantity. I think all of that stuff holds more weight when we are talking about a new player. Giovinco has played in Euros and qualifiers and big matches and I think it's foolish to think he's at a disadvantage mentally. If anything, it's the opposite. He has everything to prove now that he is playing in a "backwater" such as MLS.

I suspect the mentality part was moreso about reactions on the field to how fast the players he competing against react to try to cover/stop him - mentally the player gets used to only having to react so quickly because the defender is that much slower than that which he would face in Serie A, the EPL etc.

Although it doesn't appear to be pure snobbery against North America alone, as that article makes the point that Criscito is being left off the squad for the same reason because he plays for Zenit St. Petersburg. And neither is Pelle (who is no longer in the EPL but plays in China), although he did get kicked off the team last time round for not shaking the hand of the coach when he was subbed off. Still I wonder if he was playing for a club like Roma whether he would still have been excluded from the team.

The main thing that is suspicious to me is that after the first year of play at TFC Giovinco was called into the Italian squad for a pair of qualifiers - by all accounts played well, set up a couple of goals in limited time and also hit the cross-bar on a free kick. What was it about that performance which suggested that MLS success was dragging down his quality or his mentality?

I still think it's very political and a message from the Italian Federation was put through - don't call the players that play for a ton more money in these lower quality (versus Serie A) leagues, we don't want our Italian national team players playing for more money in North America or China we want them to play here for less moneh, if you have equal/good enough alternative options go with them. That way players will stay for less money in Italy in the hopes of playing for the National team and our Italian clubs won't have to fork out so much cash to keep them in Italy.

I could be wrong about that, its just a suspicion - but I'm also of the suspicion that we're unlikely to see too many players of the likes of Giovinco coming from Italy to MLS in the future because of all of these comments coming from the various Italian coaches - at least not until their National team days are considered over.

[Grizzly]

Giovinco is not entirely a known quantity in Italy, at least not in the sense of him being known as a top player of national team calibre. He was a bit player on the national team when he was there, had one really good season at Parma and one decent one at Juventus before mostly being a squad player. One could make the argument that he has improved in the last couple of years but the argument that it is at a lower level is equally valid. A bit player on the national team with one good season, one decent one and several seasons as a sub in Serie A is not an automatic call up to a team like Italy. Giovinco getting snubbed for MLS MVP is inexcusable but not getting called for Italy is not that surprising given the alternatives available.

As to the examples given of Impact players, Ciman is getting called to Belgium which is a golden generation team even if he is not a starter. And I think he is the best Impact defender but I never agreed with him being the best MLS defender. He makes spectacular plays which go on highlight reels but is also very error prone as one could see with his pass to Cebrera (who also handled it poorly) that led to the penalty that Bush stopped. Ciman is a strong player and makes some great plays but there are other more solid defenders in MLS than he is. Also it is not really correct to say Mancosu did not score in Serie A, more accurate would be he hardly played in Serie A. He scored 2 goals in 900 minutes in often very short appearances which is 1 goal every 5 games minute wise which is respectable. It is possible that if he was given more of a chance he would have put up decent numbers in Serie A as well but hard to perform in that situation which is why he was loaned to the Impact.

Also since I mention the reffing before the recent games, I did not see the TFC game because I was on the bus to Montreal from New Jersey but the ref for our game was much better than the ref we had in Montreal (and surprisingly the ref for our game was the infamous Toledo). I did not agree with the penalty because I think Veron was going for the penalty and made a meal out of the contact but he did a good job of that so I can see him getting the call especially as Toledo saw it all from a different angle than I did. Otherwise Toledo was very fair in the game. So at least in this game I can not claim bias on the part of the league towards the New York team.

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, Obinna said:

I'm somewhere in the middle on this.

I get that it's difficult to calibrate someone ripping MLS apart, especially when you are not seeing it first hand. If Giovinco was scoring 20-30 goals a year in Serie B, he'd probably get the call as it would be easy to scout him in person. Plus, the style of league would make it easier to gauge where he is at.

At the same time, it's not as if Giovinco is an unknown quantity. I think all of that stuff holds more weight when we are talking about a new player. Giovinco has played in Euros and qualifiers and big matches and I think it's foolish to think he's at a disadvantage mentally. If anything, it's the opposite. He has everything to prove now that he is playing in a "backwater" such as MLS.

There is no way any player would get a call to Italy playing in Serie B, even scoring 45 goals. Nor in England, or Spain, or Germany, even France, Holland, no European nation would call a player in tearing up their national second division.

 He'd be told: so great, wonderful, go find a top flight contract and we'll see how you do, consider you. But change teams and division first.

The leading scorer in Europe, consistently, for the last few years, apart from your Messi and Cristiano and Higuain and Suárez, is Soriano at Red Bull Salzburg, he's averaged over thirty a year for four years. He will never play for Spain playing there, no matter how many he bags. And he's a former youth international, so he's not unknown.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

I suspect the mentality part was moreso about reactions on the field to how fast the players he competing against react to try to cover/stop him - mentally the player gets used to only having to react so quickly because the defender is that much slower than that which he would face in Serie A, the EPL etc.

Although it doesn't appear to be pure snobbery against North America alone, as that article makes the point that Criscito is being left off the squad for the same reason because he plays for Zenit St. Petersburg. And neither is Pelle (who is no longer in the EPL but plays in China), although he did get kicked off the team last time round for not shaking the hand of the coach when he was subbed off. Still I wonder if he was playing for a club like Roma whether he would still have been excluded from the team.

The main thing that is suspicious to me is that after the first year of play at TFC Giovinco was called into the Italian squad for a pair of qualifiers - by all accounts played well, set up a couple of goals in limited time and also hit the cross-bar on a free kick. What was it about that performance which suggested that MLS success was dragging down his quality or his mentality?

I still think it's very political and a message from the Italian Federation was put through - don't call the players that play for a ton more money in these lower quality (versus Serie A) leagues, we don't want our Italian national team players playing for more money in North America or China we want them to play here for less moneh, if you have equal/good enough alternative options go with them. That way players will stay for less money in Italy in the hopes of playing for the National team and our Italian clubs won't have to fork out so much cash to keep them in Italy.

I could be wrong about that, its just a suspicion - but I'm also of the suspicion that we're unlikely to see too many players of the likes of Giovinco coming from Italy to MLS in the future because of all of these comments coming from the various Italian coaches - at least not until their National team days are considered over.

Sorry, but I have to disagree, Gian-luca. It is not a question of money at all, nobody gives a rat's ass about how much a guy may get in Qatar or China, it is irrelevant to all the big nations. They all understand that a player opting for that kind of career move understands perfectly well that his international days are over. He has made a choice, very simple, to contract himself out of international play.

Okay, I think the big exception is obviously Kaka, playing for Brazil, which I find odd, says how rough Brazil is lately.

But the principle is solid nonetheless. You have to be able to prove you are good to the national coach, and being good against glaringly lesser competition in a weaker league is not the way to prove it. Last week I was flipping between a boring LA Galaxy-Colorado and a Samp-Inter think it was, not even very strong teams this year: the pace and intensity and edgy play was vastly superior in the latter match. Every play was pushed to a near foul and the speed was about double. Okay, that other game was a bore, but still, it was a playoff match, dull as hell. In MLS they have twice the time to think and cough up the ball dumbly all the time anyways, it is pathetic, the overall impression is of slow thinking. Okay, at TFC there are a few quick thinkers out there, Giovinco one of them. But it is like being an excellent student surrounded by remedials.

 

[Mister215Guy]

Would a Canadian league carry this stigma against it from the world? This is a case of everyone rightfully hating the US and their pathetic attempts at "soccer" and being attached to them is harming Canada. It would be best to bring TFC ASAP into the CPL so European players in their prime won't be reluctant to play in Toronto. The Americans' horrid performances also cause others to not take Concacaf seriously.

[TRM]

20 minutes ago, Mister215Guy said:

Would a Canadian league carry this stigma against it from the world?

It would depend on what level it was at. If it was better than MLS then no but if it was less then obviously yes it would.

20 minutes ago, Mister215Guy said:

This is a case of everyone rightfully hating the US and their pathetic attempts at "soccer" and being attached to them is harming Canada.

 No this is a case of soccer in the MLS as not being a good enough level for most countries. Yes for the USA & Canada it is a good enough level for our MNTs to draw from but we are not the top tier and neither are the USA although they briefly flirted with it.

20 minutes ago, Mister215Guy said:

It would be best to bring TFC ASAP into the CPL so European players in their prime won't be reluctant to play in Toronto.

Never going to happen. The 3 MLS teams are gone for good. Plan accordingly.

Euro players in their prime playing in MLS level league? Or are you now saying that the CPL will be better than MLS and if so based on what? I'd be happy if the CPL were actually a league, played at NASL level and didn't flame out like previous leagues.

[Gian-Luca]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Sorry, but I have to disagree, Gian-luca. It is not a question of money at all, nobody gives a rat's ass about how much a guy may get in Qatar or China, it is irrelevant to all the big nations. They all understand that a player opting for that kind of career move understands perfectly well that his international days are over. He has made a choice, very simple, to contract himself out of international play.

That's why it was refreshing that last year this did not seem to be the case. Conte publicly supported Giovinco's move to TFC against criticisms in the Italia media that he was choosing money over quality of play and he defended Giovinco's decision. At the end of that first season he called Giovinco to the Italian national team on the basis of "He's done well over in Canada" (Conte's quote). Giovinco played well in the call-ups and was productive, helping Italy to nab first place in the group. And then in 2016.........Conte does a complete 180, saying that Giovinco needed to "accept the consequences" of making a decision to play in the MLS, directly contradicting what he had said earlier, for no readily apparent reason. Nothing had changed with respect to Giovinco's play or the quality of MLS in the 6 month intervening period (half of which consisted of the MLS off-season).

So yeah I still am suspicious that there is some other factor in play here - something more to do with politics than money, but money is almost always involved to some degree. I doubt we will ever know so it will remain speculation.

[Obinna]

6 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

There is no way any player would get a call to Italy playing in Serie B, even scoring 45 goals. Nor in England, or Spain, or Germany, even France, Holland, no European nation would call a player in tearing up their national second division.

 He'd be told: so great, wonderful, go find a top flight contract and we'll see how you do, consider you. But change teams and division first.

The leading scorer in Europe, consistently, for the last few years, apart from your Messi and Cristiano and Higuain and Suárez, is Soriano at Red Bull Salzburg, he's averaged over thirty a year for four years. He will never play for Spain playing there, no matter how many he bags. And he's a former youth international, so he's not unknown.

There have been players who have gotten called into England while playing in the Championship, but point taken - I should have said "he'd have a better shot in Serie B with this coach than MLS".

[Blackdude]

8 minutes ago, Obinna said:

There have been players who have gotten called into England while playing in the Championship, but point taken - I should have said "he'd have a better shot in Serie B with this coach than MLS".

They called players in the Championship because there weren't regular starters in the EPL. Giovinco is not playing a position where there aren't Italians in the Serie A starting.

[Obinna]

9 hours ago, Blackdude said:

They called players in the Championship because there weren't regular starters in the EPL. Giovinco is not playing a position where there aren't Italians in the Serie A starting.

There weren't any English forwards starting in the EPL? I find that hard to believe.

[Unnamed Trialist]

15 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

That's why it was refreshing that last year this did not seem to be the case. Conte publicly supported Giovinco's move to TFC against criticisms in the Italia media that he was choosing money over quality of play and he defended Giovinco's decision. At the end of that first season he called Giovinco to the Italian national team on the basis of "He's done well over in Canada" (Conte's quote). Giovinco played well in the call-ups and was productive, helping Italy to nab first place in the group. And then in 2016.........Conte does a complete 180, saying that Giovinco needed to "accept the consequences" of making a decision to play in the MLS, directly contradicting what he had said earlier, for no readily apparent reason. Nothing had changed with respect to Giovinco's play or the quality of MLS in the 6 month intervening period (half of which consisted of the MLS off-season).

So yeah I still am suspicious that there is some other factor in play here - something more to do with politics than money, but money is almost always involved to some degree. I doubt we will ever know so it will remain speculation.

I realize I am mistaken now, as others here, perhaps you, had posted a few weeks or months back that Italy was doing call-ups biased against certain players outside of Serie A. And that this argument you make, that perhaps they are trying to use the national team to defend the prestige of the national league, was being made at the time as well.

Forget when that was or the details, but I recall now that I was surprised by that, did not really believe it when I heard it. That of course would be incredible, not calling up a player in England on principle, it would be senseless. Nowadays half of the Spanish squad is playing in EPL, it is a simple question of playing for money and quality of level.

I understand that if Italy begins to realize they are having problems in this qualifying cycle (they already are, they should have lost to Spain at home as the game was a beating in playing quality..and then that Macedonia come-back, playing with fire), they may reconsider. Certainly the simple prospect of having to quality as a best 2nd could irritate, also a risky proposition.

[Keegan]

Lukas Podolski played the 2004-2005 season in B2 with 24 goals in 30 league appearances and that didn't stop him from getting into Germany's 2005 Confederation Cup squad.  

Also Oliver Neuville played in the 2007-2008 B2 season (alongside Rob Friend at Gladbach) and was a member of the German squad that made it to the Euro final that summer.  

 

[jpg75]

11 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Lukas Podolski played the 2004-2005 season in B2 with 24 goals in 30 league appearances and that didn't stop him from getting into Germany's 2005 Confederation Cup squad.  

Also Oliver Neuville played in the 2007-2008 B2 season (alongside Rob Friend at Gladbach) and was a member of the German squad that made it to the Euro final that summer.  

 

...and Marko Marin got the call when Gladbach were in B2 i believe.

[rightback]

On 11/8/2016 at 4:30 PM, RickC said:

Other examples to consider are Ciman. Was he not MLS defender of the year, but only played one match for Belgium in the Euros and blamed for one of the goals against (I recall thinking it should have been shared blame, but he was singled out).

 

Unfortunately I thought he didn't look good in that game at the Euros at all, I wasn't surprised he was dropped after that.

There's a big gulf in qualify between MLS and any of the top leagues in Europe...I can't see Giovinco doing great there but that's good for us. I love watching him tear up the MLS.

 

[Blackdude]

5 hours ago, Obinna said:

There weren't any English forwards starting in the EPL? I find that hard to believe.

What English forward played there? I was thinking of goalkeepers when I said that. Also Gladbach was a great B2 team so the players got looks because they could still scout them. And the players who were in B2 were proven at the B1 level and the national team level and were at big clubs that had a bad year and went up the following year, so it wasn't that much of a problem to call him.  I do think that because GIovinco is playing far away and was a depth player, that they chose to go with local players that don't need to take a 6 hour flight to play. Pellè wasn't called also. I think proximity is best for that.

The thing is Ciman is playing as a defender of a Belgium squad and won his spot by playing well for them and he won out over players who aren't playing in top 4 leagues. Giovinco has to do that and it's much harder to really say well what would Giovinco do for Italy? I can't tell. 

[masster]

I recall Massimo Maccarone being called up to the Italian National team in 2002 when playing for Empoli in Serie B. He is the only Serie B player I can recall playing for the Senior National Team in my lifetime. He only ever received 2 caps.

Situations like this are extremely rare though. A perfect example is Gianluca Lapadula. He scored 30 goals in Serie B for Pescara last year, but was never even considered for a call up. Now he has transferred to Milan, and even though he is not playing much and only scored his first Serie A goal this past weekend, he was called up for the first time for this most recent camp.

For England, David Nugent was called up to the national team in 2007 when he was playing for PNE in the championship.

[Blackdude]

3 minutes ago, masster said:

I recall Massimo Maccarone being called up to the Italian National team in 2002 when playing for Empoli in Serie B. He is the only Serie B player I can recall playing for the Senior National Team in my lifetime. He only ever received 2 caps.

Situations like this are extremely rare though. A perfect example is Gianluca Lapadula. He scored 30 goals in Serie B for Pescara last year, but was never even considered for a call up. Now he has transferred to Milan, and even though he is not playing much and only scored his first Serie A goal this past weekend, he was called up for the first time for this most recent camp.

For England, David Nugent was called up to the national team in 2007 when he was playing for PNE in the championship.

You forgot Buffon and the 2006-07 Juventus players. (I'm sure others made it but Buffon is the only one I'm sure made the team at the time)