Canadian Premier League

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Would Justin have got the job without Pierre's legacy? You may not remember the 1970s and the 1980s but they really weren't so very different from the present day and what happened then still influences and shapes what happens now.

[nolbertos]

23 minutes ago, Ansem said:

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/eh-game/the-great-canadian-ratings-report--mls-not-scoring-on-television-132357891.html

hmm... 1.9M viewers for a Canada vs Canada game, then it drops to irrelevance for a Canada vs USA team...with EPL having over triple the viewership in Canada.

Canadians truly follow soccer as shown by samples of ratings including the EPL. Canadians actually look forward much more to Canadian cities facing each other than some US city they care little about (you can't project your interest for US cities to the rest of the population you know). Actually, the strongest NHL ratings are also when Canadian clubs face each other.

MLS might be a TOP league, but they can't even beat the CFL in TV ratings... nor draw decent viewership whenever you squeeze a US team in it. Is it that Canadian NEED a top league to follow or do they need a league they care about and which they can relate to?

Lol, with Arfield in EPL, there were weeks where EPL was starting more Canadians than MLS

But since you detest "facts" and "stats", we'll leave it at that so you soak it in for a sec.

Hey Ansem, it wasn't because of the Canadian matchup that people watched that game, it was more because it was a MLS conference final and a Canadian team was going to make history and be in the MLs final moreso than you angling its a Canadian matchup and people watched it, not because Drogba, Piatti, Giovinco, Bradley and Altidore were playing.  For the record, the Whitecaps have a higher TV ratings and fans attending a Cascadia derby than a TFC or Montreal Impact match vs us.  Their's more history with our Cascadia rivals than other Canadian cities.  I think some of you are skewing some numbers to think Canadian matchups will magically trump a Canada vs US matchup, if no history is their.  

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Would Justin have got the job without Pierre's legacy? You may not remember the 1970s and the 1980s but they really weren't so very different from the present day and what happened then still influences and shapes what happens now.

I'd like to think Justin got the job because the NDP ran a horrible campaign and got outflanked to the left by Justin. Stats shows younger age group were a key factor in this election...the generation who didn't know his dad or weren't even born yet...so...an open mind about things being different this time?

[Ansem]

9 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

Hey Ansem, it wasn't because of the Canadian matchup that people watched that game, it was more because it was a MLS conference final and a Canadian team was going to make history and be in the MLs final moreso than you angling its a Canadian matchup and people watched it, not because Drogba, Piatti, Giovinco, Bradley and Altidore were playing.

When I put a link to an article, do try and read it.

The 1.9M was a Vancouver vs Toronto match. Then the article clearly points to the fact that ratings sharply dropped when both teams were facing other cities most Canadians didn't care about...which clearly shows how little Canadians thinks of the MLS as a league...not because it sucks, or it's terrible...

Because they feel no attachment to it, they don't identify to it, they mostly don't care enough to commit to it. Hell, more people watch EPL than MLS on TV, don't know what to tell you

9 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

For the record, the Whitecaps have a higher TV ratings and fans attending a Cascadia derby than a TFC or Montreal Impact match vs us.  Their's more history with our Cascadia rivals than other Canadian cities.

Read the article...

9 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

I think some of you are skewing some numbers to think Canadian matchups will magically trump a Canada vs US matchup, if no history is their.  

It's already the case for the NHL and the MLS, but hey, can't argue with someone who won't accept facts

[Complete Homer]

42 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Some of us are old enough to remember what happened the last time TSN had regular weekly broadcasts of a D1 sanctioned Canadian soccer league with lots of CMNT players in it and that was when there was no MLS or NASL around and it was the strongest outdoor league operating in North America and European clubs were not so open to signing Canadians as they are now. The idea that the Canadian angle is enough by itself to get people to show up or tune in is naive in the extreme. The key is whether the startup money is there in at least six cities to invest in the league properly for at least a decade as an entertainment product before there is any expectation of approaching break even. 

I don't think anyone has said anything contrary to this. The disagreement is whether or not the owners can be found 

That said, unless you are talking specific American markets, I think Ansem's point that Canadians are more interested in Canadian opponents and that it will help (though obviously not single handedly carry the league to profitability) stands up

[Marc]

4 hours ago, Alex D said:

Is MLS D1 with Liga MX around?

Seriously though, there appears to be people in Canada with money trying to start a national soccer league. Can we just let them and see what happens? I don't get the negativity. 

Not if Liga MX had established teams in New York, Los Angeles and Chicago before MLS had started up.

The negativity stems not from a distaste for the league, but from what we hear when a few of us having been around the block identify some key considerations.

Largely aside from Homer's post on the top of this page (I'm iffy on his conclusion, but you can tell he's thought about this stuff), the analysis is largely missing.

Instead, we see the glib (it's 2017!), or the clueless (NASL in Edmonton! There is no NorthAm Federation!), the inapplicable (comparisons to MLS), the insane (comparisons to the NHL), the maybe-better-but-not-particularly-confidence-building (comparisons to the CFL) or the absurdly unimportant (e.g. soccer federation designations that no one in a globalized sports market or a country with a history of Can-Am pro sports really cares about.)

Which shows that many of the posters haven't really thought through what they're promoting.

Which makes us hope that this isn't like the last time.

Which deflates our confidence that the league will survive.

I can't speak for Blizzard or others.  I'm not negative about the league.

I'm negative about the soccer community's appreciation for the challenges, both current and historical, and how hard this is going to be. 

This is the premier place to talk Canadian soccer with the Canada's most knowledgable and passionate.  And we're lacking answers to basic, basic considerations.

Ultimately, it will be the soccer community that makes this league live or die.

[Macksam]

I want to pull a BBTB and mention some history. I think people are forgetting (using his lingo here lol) the last time a division 1 league from a North American country started, that particular league played in venues that were substantially more unsuitable than what's being rumoured with the CPL, played in venues they largely didn't own, dabbled in stupid rules off the get go and still managed to average 17000 plus attendance across the board. I know MLS exists in our country, which is really only an issue for those particular cities. However, you can't honestly tell me that a 1996 Columbus, Ohio is more soccer sophisticated and soccer loving than a 2016 Calgary or Hamilton.

[Marc]

I think a 1996 Columbus, right after the World Cup, could definitely be considered as sophisticated as Calgary - possibly more so than Hamilton.  But the real answer to your question is Lamar Hunt.

[Complete Homer]

May I suggest a possibly more productive conversation (or accidentally ignite another flame war)? For those in the "I've seen this before" camp, what would you like seen done differently this time? 

Let's assume for the moment that you be got a few things different already:

1) Single entity 

2) Owners willing and capable to suffer heavy losses for 3 years and moderate losses for the first 10.

What else is on your wish list to give CPL its best shot? We already know BBTB wants MLS involvement, what else? 

[Macksam]

32 minutes ago, Marc said:

 inI think a 1996 Columbus, right after the World Cup, could definitely be considered as sophisticated as Calgary - possibly more so than Hamilton.  But the real answer to your question is Lamar Hunt.

Well, I'm not going to start a debate with the former as it's too subjective. I just wanted to get people to start thinking.

When it comes to the latter, I never asked a question, but I will engage and I have to ask if you've been keeping up with this whole thing the last few months? From all the rumours, interviews (especially with Vic) and other bits of information so far, the general consensus seems to be the proposed league wanting deep pocketed owners to sustain the operation. So, your underlying concern is simply that those entities don't exist?

[Shway]

22 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

May I suggest a possibly more productive conversation (or accidentally ignite another flame war)? For those in the "I've seen this before" camp, what would you like seen done differently this time? 

Let's assume for the moment that you be got a few things different already:

1) Single entity 

2) Owners willing and capable to suffer heavy losses for 3 years and moderate losses for the first 10.

What else is on your wish list to give CPL its best shot? We already know BBTB wants MLS involvement, what else? 

3) Original Saputo sized stadiums for teams that don't have 25K under stadiums to utilize

4) Academy teams for all teams

5) Min. 8 teams to launch

[Alex D]

1 hour ago, Marc said:

Not if Liga MX had established teams in New York, Los Angeles and Chicago before MLS had started up.

The negativity stems not from a distaste for the league, but from what we hear when a few of us having been around the block identify some key considerations.

Largely aside from Homer's post on the top of this page (I'm iffy on his conclusion, but you can tell he's thought about this stuff), the analysis is largely missing.

Instead, we see the glib (it's 2017!), or the clueless (NASL in Edmonton! There is no NorthAm Federation!), the inapplicable (comparisons to MLS), the insane (comparisons to the NHL), the maybe-better-but-not-particularly-confidence-building (comparisons to the CFL) or the absurdly unimportant (e.g. soccer federation designations that no one in a globalized sports market or a country with a history of Can-Am pro sports really cares about.)

Which shows that many of the posters haven't really thought through what they're promoting.

Which makes us hope that this isn't like the last time.

Which deflates our confidence that the league will survive.

I can't speak for Blizzard or others.  I'm not negative about the league.

I'm negative about the soccer community's appreciation for the challenges, both current and historical, and how hard this is going to be. 

This is the premier place to talk Canadian soccer with the Canada's most knowledgable and passionate.  And we're lacking answers to basic, basic considerations.

Ultimately, it will be the soccer community that makes this league live or die.

There are plenty of ways this league fails, but can't we just give them a chance before we write them off? If it does fail then USL is a fall back, no harm no foul. 

Side note: if these CPL teams draw only 2,000 spectators per match as some people want to predict, they wouldn't survive in the USL either. 

[Alex D]

38 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

May I suggest a possibly more productive conversation (or accidentally ignite another flame war)? For those in the "I've seen this before" camp, what would you like seen done differently this time? 

Let's assume for the moment that you be got a few things different already:

1) Single entity 

2) Owners willing and capable to suffer heavy losses for 3 years and moderate losses for the first 10.

What else is on your wish list to give CPL its best shot? We already know BBTB wants MLS involvement, what else? 

This league needs to be presented in a professional manner as a serious pro soccer league and not family fun day at the soccer park. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

...and if conditions are not ripe, be rational and honest about it and open to using USL instead.

[Gopherbashi]

I don't think we lack appreciation for the challenges; we lack appreciation for the charge that "it didn't work thirty years ago, clearly there is nothing to improve since then - and even if there was - it's not worth trying."

It's a constant refrain that gets tiring after a two-year long thread on a supporter's forum, and results in ever-more short-winded responses in return; for every argument has seemingly been covered a hundred times before.

The challenges are numerous: operational leagues and crowded sports markets in five of the country's biggest cities, narrowing the possibility of a television deal that would increase awareness and advertising value, uncertainty of longevity given unprofitable attendance in both historical & current clubs established at the same level and the continual delays in launching the league, leading to a lack of faith in foreign-signed Canadian players in the league's ability to provide a decent paycheque and add to their own future contract value.

The first one, in particular, could well be the harbinger of a whole host of problems if the CPL attempts to become the 4th simultaneous pro soccer league to operate in this country - it will be incredibly difficult to financially maintain the expected performance level for this league while fighting for a place in our nation's largest cities.

I don't pretend the league will be an overnight success.  I don't pretend the league will necessarily ever be a success.  I don't expect to suddenly see 12 professional, profitable, sustainable teams competing in this league two years from now.  I don't want them to try, because I don't feel that wide a net or unattainable a goal is good for the quality, objectives, or financial health of the league.  I don't honestly expect the league to match 2015-era NASL performance, though I'd be surprised if it couldn't match that of independent USL teams.  I don't think we'll suddenly see a romanticized rush home of overseas Canadians, and I don't have any expectation that our players to come home from Qatar five years from now, trophy in hand.

Truth be told, I don't think the league will be around ten years after it launches.

But I hope it is.

I hope that the league is able to use the advantages that may exist to overcome the host of challenges we worry about.  Advantages like a women's national team that drew incredible crowds and awareness during the World Cup.  Advantages like the framework laid down by the MLS teams through a decade of work to bring both soccer and supporters culture into the mainstream in this country, particularly for the younger generations.  Advantages like a poor Canadian dollar, which give teams far more predictable expenses than they'd have in American leagues.  Advantages like the success and near-failure of MLS - whose lessons we didn't have last time - accumulated through trial and many, many errors.  Advantages like the proliferation of TV channels and streaming options, providing more outlets for casual fans and advertisers to access the league.

They may not be able to - and even if they do - it may not be enough, but it doesn't mean I hope they won't succeed, and it doesn't mean I won't support the league.  It doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the plethora of issues that pose critical, existential challenges for the league - recognition of which is behind the strong reactions of some to constant negativity - but it likewise doesn't mean that I'll pretend there are no reasons why the league couldn't be a success if the stars align (yes, using NHL comparisons if necessary, because in many cases that's the best data we have to respond to baseless predictions in the absence of anything else).

Moreover, I want it to succeed because this is the current future of Canadian soccer - something which, I'm sure surprisingly, is something I also want to succeed.  If the CSA came out tomorrow and said that they were making USL D3 the height of Canadian soccer ambition, of course, yes, I would be disappointed, and more than a little frustrated - but I would ultimately support them in that goal; and hope that the teams involved in that initiative find success in growing their players, their team, their fan base, and their technical base - something that (all things considered) would not be a horrible option if those aspects (particularly the first one) could be executed properly to support the wider goal of improving Canadian soccer.

Let's be clear as well - if the USL option was the CSA's desired route, and we'd gone this long without any concrete action while seeing a similar project burn to the ground before, most of us would be jaded pessimists screaming for the CSA to just set up our own league so we could do our own thing.

But it's not the option being advanced, and while measured discussion and conjecture can be a good thing (really the only thing we've got at present), and boundless optimism towards the current option may be a bit silly and will only certainly lead to disappointment if and when (honestly, still a big if in my mind) the league launches - if the success of the league (and by extension, the charted path to grow Canadian soccer) hinges on support from the soccer community, then relentless pessimism while not allowing for the most remote possibility of success is a far worse option.

[Complete Homer]

^

 

[longlugan]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...and if conditions are not ripe, be rational and honest about it and open to using USL instead.

Finally figured it out...you're Donald Trump

[Macksam]

This year I think there's a greater chance we'll see an announcement for the CPL than Half Life 3.

I have given up on the latter.

[Trillium]

CPL needs to launch with over the air TV exposure, not cable sports network or streaming only, but weekly on TV game at consistent time point ( CBC soccer night ? ).

CPL needs to launch with an in place method for Promotion and Relegation from Provincial D3 leagues to Regional D2 leagues up to CPL D1 status.

CPL needs to launch with no geographic limitations on clubs playing in league based on Promotion.

CPL should not have upper Salary Cap, but should limit expenditure on salaries to % of club revenues.

CSA needs to indicate that a ten year phase in for PRO/REL, and at end of ten years to only award clubs winning CPL the CONCACAF Champions League spots.

CSA needs to indicate maximum size of CPL D1 ( it can get to 20 teams in my opinion ).

CSA needs to phase out any clubs playing out of Canada in US based leagues, excepting the single entity MLS franchises.

CSA needs to indicate a Canadain/International ratio for all three Professional Divisions

CSA needs to impose the Canadian/International ratio on any MLS franchises in a ten year phase in process.

CPL/CSA need to recognize the single entity concept will not succeed in growing D2 and D3 clubs as access possibility to D1 would not exist for smaller clubs.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

13 minutes ago, longlugan said:

Finally figured it out...you're Donald Trump

I have no idea what that even means. Bearing in mind that if you disagree with what I wrote in that quote your position is basically that the CSA should plough on regardless even if it is clear to them that the league is going to be another fiasco like the original CPSL or the original CSL, I guess it's difficult to come up with something clear and rational in response. 

[longlugan]

Just now, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I have no idea what that even means. Bearing in mind that if you disagree with what I wrote in that quote your position is basically that the CSA should plough on regardless even if it is clear to them that the league is going to be another fiasco like the original CPSL or the original CSL, I guess it's difficult to come up with something clear and rational in response. 

Wow...that's your problem right there...you make assumptions about people by implying you know their position simply because they disagree with your tiring pro USSF stance. Why even bother posting on here since the great US of A is your preferred saviour...just cut out the middle man and cheer for the yanks directly. By the way my stance was summarized nicely by Gopherbashi above but even more than that I am an avid follower of the anti-BBTB movement and when the CPL launches I can't wait to hear you tell us how this was your preferred choice all along. This league may or may not happen but I certainly hope it does and will support it with all my heart if/when it does so why don't you stop being such a dick and wait and see what happens with the rest of us instead of inserting your exhaustive diatribe on how we need to hook our bandwagon onto American coat tails or else we will fail. Try being a Voyageur ffs.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

A lot of the most vehement support on here for this league project has more to do with visceral level nationalism than anything else and I strongly suspect that there are people posting who would happily see pro soccer collapse into nothing again in Canada just as long as there is no cross-border angle going on. Just to be clear for those who struggle with English language comprehension, if the investors are there to make a proper go of it then I hope it happens, if not then it's time for the CSA to show some real leadership by behaving like rational actors in all of this rather than going into an Anthony Totera style irrational rant about having our own league when they don't have the money to pay for it. 

[Macksam]

3 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

A lot of the most vehement support on here for this league project has more to do with visceral level nationalism and I strongly suspectthat there are people who would happily see pro soccer collapse into nothing again in Canada just as long as there is no cross-border angle going on. Just to be clear for those who struggle with English language comprehension, if the investors are there to make a proper go of it then I hope it happens, if not then it's time for the CSA to show some real leadership by behaving like rational actors in all of this rather than going into an Anthony Totera style irrational rant. 

Get over yourself. Most of the vehement support on here for this league has to do with providing more pro opportunities for Canadian players and developing our professional infrastructure. I strongly suspect you have no dam idea what goes on in anybody's head over here.

[Macksam]

55 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I have no idea what that even means. Bearing in mind that if you disagree with what I wrote in that quote your position is basically that the CSA should plough on regardless even if it is clear to them that the league is going to be another fiasco like the original CPSL or the original CSL, I guess it's difficult to come up with something clear and rational in response. 

But it's not clear to them it's going to be a fiasco, which is why there are rumours of this league starting up.

[SuperCanuck]

On 02/01/2017 at 11:09 AM, Macksam said:

I have never been to BC Place but is it Rogers Centre (minus the decent hotel) bad or something else?

I've never been to Rogers Centre, but here's BC Place on game day in a nutshell:

Toilet bowl shaped, so no clear end or sides  (The main supporters group call themselves the Southsiders even though they're at an end, not a side.  I know, they were even called that at Swangard, and it was even sillier then when it was clearly and end, not a side.) 

There are tunnels that you could stuff about ten double decker buses along with a couple of cruise ships into right behind each goal to break up any continuous atmosphere that might exist from one corner to the other.  However, not to worry, as that rarely happens.  If any chanting can be accidentally overheard over the din of the constant yet unrhythmic drumming, there are giant curtains hanging over the stands to absorb the sound.  When it's a clear day, whoever makes the final decision often likes to have the roof closed.

If you ever go, take ear plugs.  The tannoy's at full volume. 

Swangard had about 25% of the attendance that BC Place has usually, but it had twice the atmosphere.