Canadian Premier League

[marauder01]

25 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

so this idea just came up, to help launch some SGs

I could see this being effective.

 

you guys know where to find me

Only a matter of time before we do this within the Battalion. Also would be good fun having supporters groups against each other in FIFA tourneys.

[shermanator]

6 hours ago, lazlo_80 said:

I think this is a good thing. And to a point i made many many pages back...this suddenly gives the CSA so much power it didn't have before. Now if a province/city/club doesn't want to follow the LTPD model or anything else they want done on the grassroots level, they simply don't give them the distinction of being a "CSA approved academy" and potentially hurt their recruitment potential when they're trying to get the best and brightest local talent to play for them.

As crazy and weird as these rules are, there's sort of a Machiavellian genius to why the CSA agreed to them.

This is a very intriguing view of the recent domestic / GA Canada rule changes! It almost makes a little bit of sense now....

[grasshopper1917]

7 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Beyond that, if one thing came out of recent pages, I hope the belief that FIFA tournament crowds can be used to gauge probable interest in a domestic pro leagues is something that is only confined to fan boards and is not happening in boardrooms where investment in soccer is being discussed. That said, it would help to explain the attributed quotes about 6000 to 8000 being the goal they have in mind in Halifax (if the Women's World Cup numbers from 2015 in Moncton were used for comparison purposes), and that is a little scary as it suggests the alternate plan and disaster avoidance scenarios might be needed a few games into the first season, if things follow the Edmonton Aviators trajectory. 

 

Since I have lived in Halifax for the past 12 years or so and Atlantic Canada most of my life this is the only potential market I can really comment on for support: Just a few thoughts.

1) The 6000-8000 target attendance figure is based on the local JR. hockey team. Since their inception they have averaged between 3,800 fans (Year 1) and  8500. Overall the life of the franchise is about 7000 average. I think there is roughly 35 regular season home dates a year. Before this franchise started Halifax has a history of poorly supporting a number of previous AHL teams but what the Moosehead's experience shows that if a team is run properly and does its marketing correctly it can exceed expectations.

2) The only other local professional franchise is a basketball team which draws poorly (2000 or so a game announced often half of that there). Back in the early 90's there was actually a successful basketball team in Halifax drawing 4000+ people a night til the league folded. None of the pro basketball leagues in Canada have ever had much credibility. It would naturally take time for a soccer team in Halifax to grow a fan base as people became comfortable the league was legit. We have had terrible experiences with 'shady' basketball leagues so people would be cautious at first.

3) Hockey is the most popular sport in Canada so I think it would be tough to duplicate the success of the hockey franchise in numbers (7000 average). At the same time when basketball was going goo they averaged 4000. So I don't think 5000 soccer fans a game would be a wild projection for this market if the franchise and league was done right. By done right I mean financially stable, proper marketing, credible and known leadership, notable corporate sponsorship and close ties to other credible leagues (aka MLS).

My final thought on the whole financial side of things is I see many people saying 'the league must draw X amount of fans to be successful. I think the realistic side of it is teams will have to budget for their markets. In all other soccer leagues the big clubs spend and take in way more then their smaller sides. If say Hamilton draws 10,000 a game then thats great. There is no reason though a smaller market drawing 4000 a game cant compete and be successful in their own way. This happens in all the European leagues. There needs to be a business formula that allows the bigger markets and smaller markets to compete and all be successful financially. 

 

[grasshopper1917]

Great example is this game in Scotland. Glasgow Celtic stadium 50,000 on the road playing minnow Ross County stadium 6,500. The small team and its fans had a great time in the little 6500 seat stadium the atmosphere is unreal and they draw with Celtic. Sure they may never win the league but on a day like this if they beat Celtic it would likely be as big as winning the league. This is an advantage the smaller markets may have if they build smaller 5000 seat soccer arenas. The atmosphere will be great. Even if they may not (or may) have the revenue of a bigger club laying in a CFL stadium. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evikcbgn_B0

[Gopherbashi]

In regards to the first pro contract is MLS rule...

I don't know if I've mentioned this on these forums before (and I'm sure it will be an unpopular idea here), but I wonder if MLS teams will sign young Canadians to pro contracts and then have season-long loans CPL teams - similar to what you might see with OFFC this season.

CPL gets their young Canadians while Canadian MLS gets their domestic slots.

Don't hate me.

[Complete Homer]

41 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

Great example is this game in Scotland. Glasgow Celtic stadium 50,000 on the road playing minnow Ross County stadium 6,500. The small team and its fans had a great time in the little 6500 seat stadium the atmosphere is unreal and they draw with Celtic. Sure they may never win the league but on a day like this if they beat Celtic it would likely be as big as winning the league. This is an advantage the smaller markets may have if they build smaller 5000 seat soccer arenas. The atmosphere will be great. Even if they may not (or may) have the revenue of a bigger club laying in a CFL stadium. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evikcbgn_B0

Coincidentally, Ross County has a wage budget that roughly works out to 1.5 million Canadian dollars

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Most importantly Ross County have a bilionaire chairman called Roy McGregor, who has stopped them from going bankrupt. They have also benefited from fans from the wider Inverness area, who were turned off by a merger of two teams called Caledonian and Thistle about 20 years ago, gravitating towards them instead. Not sure what this is supposed to prove about anything that happens in Canada? Ross County have a core support of about 2000 at best (many claim their announced attendance figures are inflated) and that would not cover the bills if they had to do regular air travel.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Any CPL will be close to a parity league, following the MLS model.

It is true that Scotland has huge discrepancies, perhaps more than any other league in Europe, not even Portugal has such a wide breach in terms of fans and capacity to generate revenue. 

It is a model that can work, big clubs driving the rest of the league, a tv deal that gives more to the smaller clubs than they are actually putting in (in terms of tv fans). But I don't think this is what we are talking about in a CPL. Even if a team comes from an existing club (eg Edmonton, just to give an example), they are not going to be teams that other fans are going to come out in droves to see. There might be a spead in terms of fans, even three times as much in some stadiums, or four (1500 to 6,000), but that is not a Scotland type experience. 

Even in USL this year Cinncinati had outrageous fan support, over 20 times more than some rivals, but that had no affect either way: they came out to see their team, not rivals, and no rival fan base gave a shit about going to see Cinncinati visiting. 

So what I am arguing. Even a smaller fan and economic base in Moncton in comparison to, say, Hamilton, will not alter the basic perspective of relative parity. The league will be balanced and only cheap (underfunded), dumb (bad stadium choces, colours, marketing) or inept (poor management, foolish signings) owners will alter that. It should reasonably resemble MLS in terms of competitiveness, and should be similar to a country like Sweden or Norway or Austria in terms of relative size and importance of clubs. 

Edit: I think this makes it a great challenge in terms of building a winning team and not losing money. Since basically there should be no excuses, the team that does best on and off the field will deserve it, and the ones that don't will likely, probably, only have themselves to blame.

 

[Complete Homer]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Most importantly Ross County have a bilionaire chairman called Roy McGregor, who has stopped them from going bankrupt. They have also benefited from fans from the wider Inverness area, who were turned off by a merger of two teams called Caledonian and Thistle about 20 years ago, gravitating towards them instead. Not sure what this is supposed to prove about anything that happens in Canada? Ross County have a core support of about 2000 at best (many claim their announced attendance figures are inflated) and that would not cover the bills if they had to do regular air travel.

Man, I just thought it was a coincidence that the team I used as an example for the sort of player you can get with a 1.5M wage bill (of course adjusting for the fact that SPL will be more attractive than CPL as a stepping stone) came up again in the discussion. You go from zero to CPL is doomed in seconds

[matty]

Unrelated to current trends in this topic but.....

If CPL jerseys look like Liga MX ones (with sponsors everywhere) I will be pissed. I get these teams will likely need a shield, sleeve and lower back sponsor but having 2-3 on every possible spot is so goddamn depressing.

[Levi Oakey]

5 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Most importantly Ross County have a bilionaire chairman called Roy McGregor, who has stopped them from going bankrupt. They have also benefited from fans from the wider Inverness area, who were turned off by a merger of two teams called Caledonian and Thistle about 20 years ago, gravitating towards them instead. Not sure what this is supposed to prove about anything that happens in Canada? Ross County have a core support of about 2000 at best (many claim their announced attendance figures are inflated) and that would not cover the bills if they had to do regular air travel.

Roy MacGregor barely makes the top 100 richest in Scotland. He is estimated at about $400m pounds. Which by the way, couldn't touch our top 100 richest in Canada:

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/lists-and-rankings/richest-people/top-100-richest-canadians-2015/

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, matty said:

Unrelated to current trends in this topic but.....

If CPL jerseys look like Liga MX ones (with sponsors everywhere) I will be pissed. I get these teams will likely need a shield, sleeve and lower back sponsor but having 2-3 on every possible spot is so goddamn depressing.

I understand the reasoning, but they can be made of actual soup can labels if that is what it takes to get the necessary revenue.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

6 minutes ago, Levi Oakey said:

Roy MacGregor barely makes the top 100 richest in Scotland. He is estimated at about $400m pounds. Which by the way, couldn't touch our top 100 richest in Canada:

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/lists-and-rankings/richest-people/top-100-richest-canadians-2015/

What are you trying to prove by posting that? I have no idea why Ross County would even have been brought up in this thread in the first place. Soccer in Canada is nothing like soccer in Scotland. In one country it has traditionally been a fringe sport played and watched primarily by recent immigrants, while in the other it is close to being a way of life.

[marauder01]

I now pronounce this the Official Voyageurs SPFL thread.

Today's question: Would you rather have Partick Thistle's Mascot, Kingsley as your starting striker or your manager? Discuss.

[Levi Oakey]

Just now, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

What are you trying to prove by posting that? I have no idea why Ross County would even have been brought up in this thread in the first place. Soccer in Canada is nothing like soccer in Scotland. In one country it has traditionally been a fringe sport played and watched primarily by recent immigrants, while in the other it is close to being a way of life.

All good mate. Just making sure we keep things factual.

[dyslexic nam]

Just now, Levi Oakey said:

All good mate. Just making sure we keep things factual.

Please don't muddy this thread with facts.

[Levi Oakey]

Just now, dyslexic nam said:

Please don't muddy this thread with facts.

Oh shit... sorry lads. I have soiled it.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 minute ago, marauder01 said:

I now pronounce this the Official Voyageurs SPFL thread.

Today's question: Would you rather have Partick Thistle's Mascot, Kingsley as your starting striker or your manager? Discuss.

If you call your team Hamilton Academical and use red and white hoops, I would pretty much have to start supporting. No danger of that by the sounds of things and as the Steel City, Motherwell would traditionally be the Scottish equivalent.

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, matty said:

Unrelated to current trends in this topic but.....

If CPL jerseys look like Liga MX ones (with sponsors everywhere) I will be pissed. I get these teams will likely need a shield, sleeve and lower back sponsor but having 2-3 on every possible spot is so goddamn depressing.

Ligue 1 kits are kind of like that. They look alright.

33 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

What are you trying to prove by posting that? I have no idea why Ross County would even have been brought up in this thread in the first place. Soccer in Canada is nothing like soccer in Scotland. In one country it has traditionally been a fringe sport played and watched primarily by recent immigrants, while in the other it is close to being a way of life.

Again with this? Did you conduct the research to come to this conclusion? Did you do your PHD in Canadian Sports Economics on this topic? 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

Id be fine with 2-3 kit sponsors at first, hopefully moving to 1 eventually

[Ansem]

The 18-35 are heavily credited with the Jays quick rise in both attendance and viewership. BBTB needs to understand that time has changed from the 80s and 90s and that there's a new generation to win over for CPL

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Strange response to something that started "...has traditionally been..." given there is an implication that times have changed when that phrase is used. I'm confident if there is a team in London, Ont., that where there was 400 to 500 showing up at best in 1990 and 1992 (once the home opener was out of the way and with the exception of a weekend that there was a big Croatian soccer tournament just in case anyone decides to get factual/pedantic on this as well), there could easily be 1500 now, but 5000 to 7000 is a completely different story.  

[Ansem]

13 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Strange response to something that started "...has traditionally been..." given there is an implication that times have changed when that phrase is used. I'm confident if there is a team in London, Ont., that where there was 400 to 500 showing up at best in 1990 and 1992 (once the home opener was out of the way and with the exception of a weekend that there was a big Croatian soccer tournament just in case anyone decides to get factual/pedantic on this as well), there could easily be 1500 now, but 5000 to 7000 is a completely different story.  

Look man, I'm not saying CPL will surpass MLS or anything, I'm optimistic that they will reach their targets after a few years but that's my opinion.

All I'm saying is that the demographics has changed tremendously and this is the perfect time to try again with a top league in Canada. Regarding London and I work in labour market as a researcher, that city has changed a lot and is changing for the best. Lots of start up techs are choosing London, University students are making the choice to stay more and more, housing markets are more attractive and I could go on... The point is, London has changed.

Also you keep going back to your examples of the 90s when the wrong business model was being used and in now where team plays in irrelevant leagues. I get it, we all get it, no need to be a broken record about it.

Like it or not, there's nothing not factual that I've said in my post. The 18-35 are up for grab as the core of the CPL fan base because you know...they were either unborn, kids or teens with no purchase power in the 80s-90s and early 2000s...

That's up to CPL marketing to figure it out 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I go back to the 90s when you try to claim that the Canadian angle makes all the difference as it provides solid evidence that it isn't enough by itself and the present day provides plenty of evidence that 7000 or 11000 paid in the sort of markets that the "CPL" would need to use is far fetched at best. FC Edmonton draw around 2000 paid, because they don't go in for the almost free youth soccer discounts that the Fury use to paper the house in Ottawa, so they can announce 5000+ but lose $2 million.

[Ansem]

22 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I go back to the 90s when you try to claim that the Canadian angle makes all the difference as it provides solid evidence that it isn't enough by itself and the present day provides plenty of evidence that 7000 or 11000 paid in the sort of markets that the "CPL" would need to use is far fetched at best. FC Edmonton draw around 2000 paid, because they don't go in for the almost free youth soccer discounts that the Fury use to paper the house in Ottawa, so they can announce 5000+ but lose $2 million.

NASL being single entity structure is news to me ...Of course the Fury and Edmonton lost money, that American league is a failure

Again, no one cares about USL or NASL because I can go back as well to when Montreal was playing in both leagues, if they made the news it was a miracle. Also, it was the 2009 CONCACAF champions league game at Olympic Stadium that really increased their popularity, certainly not the "appeal" of the NASL. Also, Montreal showed what a solid ownership with deep pockets is capable of bringing to the table, like being able to endure years on monetary loss... Not convince the Fury ownership or FC Edmonton are remotely in Saputo's league and good for CPL to go after those kind of owners, just like MLS did.

But you go ahead and keep comparing apples to watermelons, and quite frankly, I'm getting tired of debating you. I at least take the time to take into account your arguments but you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the factors that indicates that it won't be the 2nd coming of the old CSL. You keep ignoring that an owner like Saputo is critical at making a team work vs. the old ownership's at the head of teams that have folded in the past.