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29 minutes ago, 1996 said:

"Ansem" I'm going to venture you relatively young compared to myself and I'm guessing BBTB, I think BBTB goes back pretty far back in supporting Canadian soccer maybe not as far back as me but I'm sure they have been at it awhile too. We want the same thing in the end a strong national team and soccer to be bigger on the pro side bigger than it is today, but we are going by experience and being realistic in terms of a national pro soccer league. I think it end the future growth of the MLS is where the promise land lies for even the advancement of our Canadian players and the national team, but if we can get a nice stable CPL it will just be another helper in developing players, and remember it's only been 8 years more or less with the MLS in Canada give it time and you will see improvement of the Canadian players because of the MLS, a lot of people don't see it like that I think it's still to early to judge MLS Canadian team Canadian player development.

The world's 10th economy not being able to have its own league is an aberration that I'm glad is being fixed. The interest/demand is there but there's no team out there to satisfy that demand.

MLS was crystal clear that they won't expand in Canada and came out with an half ass "Canadian solution" which is frankly an insult and excuse for their protectionism on domestic players, that's TSN and Sportnest and other media's saying it, not me.

You have a right to enjoy MLS, watch it, see it live etc... but calling it the long term salvation of the Canadian program with 5% Canadians being part of the league (not even starting) is where you guys lose me but have it your way and believe what you want.

Repeating the same thing over and over expecting a different result is insanity to me. Status quo will kill soccer in this country because we can take so much more disappoint from our national team before we quit giving a damn about it for good and that's coming from a soccer die hard fan who must summon every bit of will power to get engage in another world cup qualifiers campaign. Casual fans and none-fans will quit or just don't bother way before then...

Add: FFS. EVen if they expand the World Cup and the top 6 CONCACAF nations get a ticket to the world cup,

WE'RE NOT EVEN GOOD ENOUGHT TO CRACK THE FREAKING TOP 6 ANYWAYS...FOR OVER 2 DECADES!!!!!!!!:angry:

Talk about keeping your head in the sand

Extra Add: 3 DECADES!!!!!!! And some think more of the same is the cure??????

F*** ME!!!!

Final addition: This problem transcends sports. Canadian have/had a serious case of inferiority complex towards the United States. Whenever the US did something, we automatically think we can't do better or we need to join/follow them. I used the verb "had" because I believe this younger generation is giving Canada the much more needed self-Confidence that we need...something older generations seems to lack.

Last time we were bold in the sport world was around 100 years ago when we truly didn't care about how we measured to our American neighbors. NHL was born in Montreal in 1917 with Montreal having 3 teams at a point in time, and CFL was born. We were better than them in soccer until pretty much 1986.

I need to remind this. WE WERE BETTER than the US most of the time until the 90s. Where that belief of "Canada will never catch up to the US" came from is beyond me...because Wales certainly caught up to England looking at the latest Euro.

We have gifted athletes, talent, brains, wealth and resources. We just need to put it together to make it work.

I'd rather bet on myself than hoping that my neighbor will land me a hand down the road. (Yes because the USSF are eager to see Canada challenge for World Cup spots anytime soon....sigh)

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1 hour ago, 1996 said:

Look all I'm saying is that yes start a CPL of course I'm a soccer fan and a National team fan been one since the early 1970's for heavens sake , Gerry Gray still one of the best Canadian midfielders ever, but I'm really enjoying seeing are 3 Canadian MLS cities do so well attendance wise and even media wise, I'm fucken enjoying it after so many years of fucken nothing nada and I've been at this shit for ever, so excuse me if the thought of starting over again does not excite me I'm sorry but I'm enjoying this big time feel of the Canadian MLS teams after suffering for ever when it came to local pro soccer that I supported for so long , I was there with the other few hundred fans at Centennial Stadium in Mississauga or Varsity Stadium or Ether Shinet stadium always supporting the different incarnations of local pro soccer after the old NASl folded in 1984 and TFC was born in 2007, I've paid my dues now let me enjoy this recent popularity of MLS teams in their respective MLS Canadian cities I'll leave it to all you young guns to support this new league I'm happy where I am now , anyways I've rambled enough today got to go it's New Yesrs eve , later kids.  

So go ahead and enjoy it; no one's saying you can't, and the vast majority will fully support you in doing so.  The MLS teams aren't going anywhere, and the CPL isn't going to tear those teams down or make them start over.

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Also, I grow sick and tired of these endless comparison with the MLS.

The only thing we should get from them is the single entity model that makes it more likely for the league to succeed and stabilize in the long term in the North American context

Outside of that, can we look in Europe for comparaison?

Sweden

***Shocking, a league with attendance in the range being discuss for CPL can succeed and send their Champions in the toughest Champions League in the world and produce guys like Ibrahimovic. And they are a Division 1 league...with these numbers OMG***

Screenshot_20161231-171200.png

oh and they have stadiums with only 6k seats to 50k. Also, they play at the SAME TIME as MLS and CPL will be playing as well.

Population? Around 10M

Cities and population?

Screenshot_20161231-172451.png

The league?

Screenshot_20161231-172717.png

Oh and Malmö can keep up with Champions League teams, something MLS clubs wouldn't be able to do.

Let's stop this "MLS or bust" because I'd rather copy what Sweden is doing instead with 16 teams out of markets that are smaller than our own.

Emulating MLS would be a mistake of epic proportion.  Take what works and look elsewhere to make your product different, a more European feel with a Canadian touch. Ripping off the MLS is the worst idea so yep, I'm not afraid of markets like London, Kitchener Waterloo, Victoria or Moncton. I look forward to see their passion on TV and hopefully live

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2 hours ago, 1996 said:

"Ansem" I'm going to venture you relatively young compared to myself and I'm guessing BBTB, I think BBTB goes back pretty far back in supporting Canadian soccer maybe not as far back as me but I'm sure they have been at it awhile too. We want the same thing in the end a strong national team and soccer to be bigger on the pro side bigger than it is today, but we are going by experience and being realistic in terms of a national pro soccer league. I think in the end the future growth of the MLS is where the promise land lies for even the advancement of our Canadian players and the national team, but if we can get a nice stable CPL it will just be another helper in developing players, and remember it's only been 8 years more or less with the MLS in Canada give it time and you will see improvement of the Canadian players because of the MLS, a lot of people don't see it like that I think it's still to early to judge MLS Canadian team Canadian player development.

Just throwing this out here respectfully - I'm not trying to perpetuate an argument, I think your overall stance is reasonable. Just seen the "I have been around longer, therefore I am right" argument a few too many times in this thread

There's an interesting phenomenon in medicine where patient mortality drops significantly when senior physicians in a given specialty leave their hospitals to go to their annual conference, leaving inexperienced residents alone and in charge. The residents, lacking the experience of the senior physicians, are forced to lean heavily on evidence applied carefully within the context of each patient, and the research shows that they do much better than their superiors.

There is also a phenomenon that runs counter to this - "clinical gestalt" - in which physicians who have seen the same condition thousands of times manage to outpace the outcomes achieved by standard guidelines by making decisions on intuition rather than evidence. The theory is that the human brain, when exposed to similar scenarios thousands of times, is able to pick up correlations that we have never thought to study scientifically. 

My point is that "experience" is a double edge sword. As much as it might give you a premonition on the success or failure of an action if you have encountered the scenario thousands of times, in situations like this it is just as likely that "experience" is blinding you to possibilities.

I know I'm being a bit long-winded, and this isn't meant as a personal attack or anything, but I have to roll my eyes every time someone brings up that they have been around the block in Canadian soccer and are therefore correct...all it means is that you've  become entrenched and have difficulty seeing the path forward. 

That also doesn't mean you are necessarily incorrect either, just making the point that being around to see the old CSL fail doesn't make one's predictions on the chances of CPL any better - it actually probably makes it worse

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I'll gladly double down on the above

Denmark: 5.7M habitants

Population by cities?

Screenshot_20161231-174925.png

The league?

Screenshot_20161231-174524.png

Attendance?

Average/total/max/min

Screenshot_20161231-174637.png

Their Champions goes to Champions League playoffs...so how did Copenhagen accomplish this year?

Screenshot_20161231-174742.pngScreenshot_20161231-174756.png

Not convince an MLS clubs would have fared better. 

So Denmark are smaller, have a smaller population, smaller cities/markets, yet they have a functioning/viable Division 1 league with attendance numbers in range of what's being thrown for CPL.

I'll take whatever those guys are doing. Bigger isn't always better. It's not how big you are or how much resources you have, it's how well you use it that matters and efficiency is key here.

That's what CPL should get inspiration from, not MLS

 

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1 minute ago, Gopherbashi said:

Look on the bright side though; when all the younguns are arguing about whether the CUPSL will be a success when it launches in 2044, we'll be able to shake our canes at them while wearing some dope-ass shirts.

That league won't survive without a hologram deal at launch, mark my words

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4 hours ago, Ansem said:

I'll gladly double down on the above

Denmark: 5.7M habitants

Population by cities?

Screenshot_20161231-174925.png

The league?

Screenshot_20161231-174524.png

Attendance?

Average/total/max/min

Screenshot_20161231-174637.png

 

 

Speaking of the Danish and Swedish examples, I know this isn't likely at all, but I really wouldn't mind a league set-up on a more regional basis, designed to cover more cities, even if it means lower attendances in certain markets.

Something like:
Pacific: Victoria, Vancouver, Abbotsford, Kelowna, Calgary, Edmonton
Heartlands: Regina, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Thunder Bay, Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie
Golden Horseshoe: Windsor, London, Kitchener, Hamilton, Toronto, York Region
Quebec/Maritimes: Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec, Trois-Rivières, Muncton, Halifax

To cut costs, most games will be within each division. At the end of the season, the best team from each division proceeds to a round-robin tournament to determine the champion. The goal would be for smaller markets to draw 3,000-4,000 people ... probably doesn't make any sense financially .. but that was what I was daydreaming.

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Heard A very interesting CPL news that either Mississauga or Brampton will have a CPL team for 2018 Launch.

Both are small  cities with a lot of soccer interest . Mississauga has a population of over 700,000 , Brampton has a Population Close to 600,000.

 Adequate Sized Stadiums are a question in these two cities!  

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2 hours ago, Futballer said:

Heard A very interesting CPL news that either Mississauga or Brampton will have a CPL team for 2018 Launch.

Both are small  cities with a lot of soccer interest . Mississauga has a population of over 700,000 , Brampton has a Population Close to 600,000.

 Adequate Sized Stadiums are a question in these two cities!  

Small cities...Mississauga is closer to 800k and is the 6th largest city in Canada.

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14 hours ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

Speaking of the Danish and Swedish examples, I know this isn't likely at all, but I really wouldn't mind a league set-up on a more regional basis, designed to cover more cities, even if it means lower attendances in certain markets.

Something like:
Pacific: Victoria, Vancouver, Abbotsford, Kelowna, Calgary, Edmonton
Heartlands: Regina, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Thunder Bay, Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie
Golden Horseshoe: Windsor, London, Kitchener, Hamilton, Toronto, York Region
Quebec/Maritimes: Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec, Trois-Rivières, Muncton, Halifax

To cut costs, most games will be within each division. At the end of the season, the best team from each division proceeds to a round-robin tournament to determine the champion. The goal would be for smaller markets to draw 3,000-4,000 people ... probably doesn't make any sense financially .. but that was what I was daydreaming.

As shown above, CPL should bank on a more regional approach especially if they estimate that 7-8k would be enough for them to break even. 

No more thinking like the MLS because we'll never be like them but more thinking like Europe like Sweden or Denmark. We have enough mid-size to bigger size communities/regions to have a full table for the league

As for your idea of divisions, the most populous metros/regions should be prioritized while aiming for a an average of 2 teams per provinces. (Ontario having many would compensate for Maritimes provinces having only 1 each)

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Hmmmm, I wish we could emulate Sweden or Denmark for grassroots "LOVE" for soccer.  Using comparisons to the US are made because our level of soccer interest is closer to them.  In fact lately it seems like they are pulling ahead of us in that area as well.  Comparing us to Denmark, is like comparing soccer to the WHL/OHL etc drawing decent numbers, we are a hockey crazy country and lower levels of hockey in tiny markets can still fill small arenas.  I dont think its a coincedence that the CPL interest  is rekindled (and seems to be reaching critical mass) 5-10years after its been proven that CDN's will support big teams, fill the stadium and clubs will spend the bucks on academies etc.

 I dont know where the hatred comes from, MLS has opened the door, interest is growing because of that..now its time to get our own league!!  You are saying the MLS has done nothing for our CMNT results.  Well there is a school of thought where you build grassroots interest etc, results come later.  Momentum builds and maybe those MLS clubs will switch to a prosperous CPL one day.  Or maybe the level of support gets so high you get CPL teams in the CDN MLS cities.  I really just hope we can stop arguing about this stuff and actually start fighting about the Winnipeg Valor vs the Halifax wanderers on CPL game of the week.  

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14 hours ago, Futballer said:

Heard A very interesting CPL news that either Mississauga or Brampton will have a CPL team for 2018 Launch.

Both are small  cities with a lot of soccer interest . Mississauga has a population of over 700,000 , Brampton has a Population Close to 600,000.

 Adequate Sized Stadiums are a question in these two cities!  

Cause neither has one that could even serve as a temporary venue for such a club? If either is involved with the launch this league is going to fail with the current model.

 

20 hours ago, Ansem said:

 

Not convince an MLS clubs would have fared better. 

So Denmark are smaller, have a smaller population, smaller cities/markets, yet they have a functioning/viable Division 1 league with attendance numbers in range of what's being thrown for CPL.

I'll take whatever those guys are doing. Bigger isn't always better. It's not how big you are or how much resources you have, it's how well you use it that matters and efficiency is key here.

That's what CPL should get inspiration from, not MLS

 

48 minutes ago, Ansem said:

As shown above, CPL should bank on a more regional approach especially if they estimate that 7-8k would be enough for them to break even. 

No more thinking like the MLS and more thinking like Europe like Sweden or Denmark. We have enough mid-size to bigger size communities/regions to have a full table for the league

Dude you're ignoring a lot of things with your posts relating to Denmark including its size, their player pay (which is higher than MLS's) and the fact the bigger clubs might be quitting the league in favour of the Atlantic League idea.

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17 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Using comparisons to the US are made because our level of soccer interest is closer to them.  In fact lately it seems like they are pulling ahead of us in that area as well

Lol!!!! you're joking right?

There were articles about the US having poor attendances at world cup qualifiers and the MLS playoffs tv ratings certainly debunked what you just said. We're a 10th of their population yet we handily beat them in TV ratings.

We're not the USA, we should stop trying to be like them, we're more in line with countries like Sweden who are JUST AS MUCH as Hockey crazies as we are.

In regards to MLS contribution to the Canadian programs, I'll just get angry if I go there.

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7 minutes ago, matty said:

 

Cause neither has one that could even serve as a temporary venue for such a club? If either is involved with the launch this league is going to fail with the current model.

 

Dude you're ignoring a lot of things with your posts relating to Denmark including its size, their player pay (which is higher than MLS's) and the fact the bigger clubs might be quitting the league in favour of the Atlantic League idea.

They started in the earlier previous century. I was showing the model, not the pay. That comes later gradually but their model is more realistic to follow than some people thinking that if we can't replicate the MLS, our league will fail.

As for venues for Peel region, the example of Empire Field was brought up many times. 

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I do think one thing that makes Canada different from scandanavian countries is population DENSITY.  Personally I'd like to see us fall somewhere between the MLS model and the european model.  

MLS model gives much needed stability but we do need to get that authentic european feel for this to really be a success.  I can't stress enough how important it is to make strides in opening the V's cup in terms of market penetrance outside of the main markets.  When people in Whitehorse are talking about sending a delegate to the preliminary stages of the voyageurs cup, I will be satisfied that we are where we need to be in terms of connecting the grassroots with the big time.

Right now, we talk about sending a team to "Nationals".  Whatever the hell that means.  There should be a way that provincial champions are able to enter the voyageurs cup in some sort of play-in that eliminates all buy the strongest local clubs, but that is accessible to anyone who can prove their worth on the pitch.  IMO this will go a long way towards connecting our strong grassroots presence with the growing club scene - should help MLS clubs in terms of viewership.

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2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

They started in the earlier previous century. I was showing the model, not the pay. That comes later gradually but their model is more realistic to follow than some people thinking that if we can't replicate the MLS, our league will fail.

As for venues for Peel region, the example of Empire Field was brought up many times. 

We're looking at MLS because of our size. It's also the model the decision makers involved with CPL seem to favour which makes sense because Australia also did it (a better representation of what we should do than Denmark)

I pointed out Denmark's pay in reply to you saying MLS would not of done better. 

Can someone please link me info on Empire. Everytime I look I just find a field in BC

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4 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

I do think one thing that makes Canada different from scandanavian countries is population DENSITY.  Personally I'd like to see us fall somewhere between the MLS model and the european model.  

I'd like to see us follow Australia's model which sees the A-League over 10 regional leagues. A-League also seems to be on the verge of experimenting with Pro/Rel.

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15 minutes ago, matty said:

We're looking at MLS because of our size. It's also the model the decision makers involved with CPL seem to favour which makes sense because Australia also did it (a better representation of what we should do than Denmark)

I pointed out Denmark's pay in reply to you saying MLS would not of done better. 

Can someone please link me info on Empire. Everytime I look I just find a field in BC

Oh I agree. We need a MLS league structure single entity and no relegation as we're in North America and can't be like Europe in that regard. Didn't Paul Beirne implied that some level of reg/pro could happen in another thread?

However, the Sweden model makes sense to me specifically in regards to target average attendance, team location, stadiums etc. Emulating  the Sweden is more realistic. I don't see how our 500k cities can't have an average of 7k spectators to break even or make profits in the long run.

That's where I say let's drop the MLS examples as we don't have as many over 1 million metros as they do, hence we have to look elsewhere for something that works, like Sweden who can have a viable league at 9k of average attendance with years where it used to be 7k. 

CPL should be a hybrid of both approach but more heavily leaning towards Europe except for league structure

Empire Field

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_Field

 

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On 12/30/2016 at 4:21 PM, Complete Homer said:

Best lines come at the end which nicely describes the problem with people involved in Canadian football from youth stage to pro ranks. And it's why we need a CPL. And it needs to be something other than simply another league modelled on the American approach.

As I leave, one of the things that I want to tell people … is that the leaders in this country – at the national level, definitely at the provincial level and even at our professional club level – need to start thinking about this game globally and then acting locally, rather than thinking locally and then acting parochially.

We need to start thinking in the context that this is not Canadian soccer in isolation, this is Canadian soccer that is part of a global game that is moving very fast in a lot of areas – technically, business, everything else – and if we don’t keep pace with that, we’re going to fall behind like we did for the last 40 years.

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