Canadian Premier League

[Toronto Ruffrider]

I wish that the waterfront stadium was built - that thing was gorgeous in the renderings. I've never been to BC Place so I can't comment on the experience there, but the stadium looks very meh on TV.

[SuperCanuck]

7 hours ago, Toronto Ruffrider said:

I wish that the waterfront stadium was built - that thing was gorgeous in the renderings. I've never been to BC Place so I can't comment on the experience there, but the stadium looks very meh on TV.

A couldn't agree more.  I always had a feeling the Waterfront Stadium was too good to be true.  It would have been excellent.  A unique ground with the view of the mountains and a great location.  BC Place gets a "meh" on the TV?  I'm surprised, it's nowhere near as good as that in person. 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

3 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

But I hope it is.

you and your hope can fuck right off.  This is the internet, don't you know thats not welcome here?

[dyslexic nam]

On 1/2/2017 at 11:56 PM, Bison44 said:

PEI?

 

Like a fuckin boss.

[dyslexic nam]

So, just got caught up on the last couple weeks (and 20 pages). 

 

To summarize:

[MtlMario]

15 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I have no idea what that even means. Bearing in mind that if you disagree with what I wrote in that quote your position is basically that the CSA should plough on regardless even if it is clear to them that the league is going to be another fiasco like the original CPSL or the original CSL, I guess it's difficult to come up with something clear and rational in response. 

If everyone thought like you we'd still be living in caves(in the USA I guess since you're such a big" everything American is better" fan.

[Marc]

17 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

I don't think we lack appreciation for the challenges; we lack appreciation for the charge that "it didn't work thirty years ago, clearly there is nothing to improve since then - and even if there was - it's not worth trying."

It's a constant refrain that gets tiring after a two-year long thread on a supporter's forum, and results in ever-more short-winded responses in return; for every argument has seemingly been covered a hundred times before.

Two things

1.  None of us that have highlighted the challenges haven't said a Canadian league isn't worth doing.  Total strawman.  We just want to see if there are new solutions to address those old problems.  Just because it was 30 years ago doesn't mean it will happen now, but just because time has passed doesn't mean that all the problems of the past have faded away.  I find the "why can't we just let it roll, and see what happens?" lines very funny, considering that we're all on here talking about soccer before, during and after it happens.  

2. If every argument has been covered before, why are there a grand total of two posts like yours in the last 40 pages that actually address anything in substance?  Your post is excellent.  Measured and realistic.  Well done.

[Marc]

20 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

May I suggest a possibly more productive conversation (or accidentally ignite another flame war)? For those in the "I've seen this before" camp, what would you like seen done differently this time? 

Let's assume for the moment that you be got a few things different already:

1) Single entity 

2) Owners willing and capable to suffer heavy losses for 3 years and moderate losses for the first 10.

What else is on your wish list to give CPL its best shot? We already know BBTB wants MLS involvement, what else? 

Great idea.  It's a bit Sim City for my liking, but I'd suggest:

• Eight teams, with potential for four more if the league is successful
• Ideally a majority of owners of known, national stature (that may be too hopeful)
• A ten year plan that takes into account ten years of consistent losses and the ability to break even on attendances of 5000ish.
• An alternate plan to mitigate effects of early league contraction and/or drastically low attendance figures
• A last gasp disaster avoidance plan if league contracts significantly (e.g. shift to USL? Who knows, just need to find some way to keep continuity for clubs that are alive)
• A twenty year plan for moving into more soccer-appropriate venues
• Each club should have a plan for youth development (doesn't have to be academies, can use existing youth clubs)
• Mandatory linkages/fostering/accommodation of fan groups in some manner
• Canadian content rules of 50 percent, including coaches, with a plan to gradually increase Canadian content, both players and coaches
• A three-year recruitment plan (this could be unnecessary if the league is single entity), I think finding good enough players will be a challenge in the current market
• League-wide standard salary grid, including a salary floor / living wage for a set percentage of a club's players (ditto re: not being needed if single entity)
• No amateur players; No NCAA kids; No MLS reserve sides; Judicious limits on the number of loaned players
• League wide marketing plan, including merchandising through a major national retailer
• National television coverage.  No local Rogers/Shaw crapola.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 hour ago, MtlMario said:

If everyone thought like you we'd still be living in caves(in the USA I guess since you're such a big" everything American is better" fan.

Another semi-coherent post based on visceral level nationalism rather than anything that resembles a reasoned argument. Just to be clear so there is no misunderstanding on this I would chose Justin Trudeau and the mainstream Canadian way of doing things politically over Donald Trump and Uncle Sam any day of the week, but what does that have to do with spectator sport? If a cross-border league is good enough for something as core to Canadian national identity as hockey, I find it bizarre that the need for soccer to follow a similar approach to make things work financially at the D1 level would ever have to be defended on here. Do you guys go onto NHL boards and campaign for a Canadian Hockey League with teams in Halifax and Regina rather than Los Angeles and New York? Somehow I seriously doubt it.

I agree with most of Marc's points above, but I think MLS affiliates in other cities as opposed to reserve teams should be allowed, because it pushes things at least 3/8ths of the way to stability and can be used to take better advantage of the new domestic player rule in MLS. Could there even be a way to get all the teams in the league affiliated loosely to an MLS franchise so all Canadian players signing their first pro contract would be leaving their options wide open in MLS terms further into their career? Think that sort of scenario should be explored if the greater good of the national program is a key consideration in all of this.

Beyond that, if one thing came out of recent pages, I hope the belief that FIFA tournament crowds can be used to gauge probable interest in a domestic pro leagues is something that is only confined to fan boards and is not happening in boardrooms where investment in soccer is being discussed. That said, it would help to explain the attributed quotes about 6000 to 8000 being the goal they have in mind in Halifax (if the Women's World Cup numbers from 2015 in Moncton were used for comparison purposes), and that is a little scary as it suggests the alternate plan and disaster avoidance scenarios might be needed a few games into the first season, if things follow the Edmonton Aviators trajectory. 

[Marc]

Great post.  For the record, I'm totally down with some sort of MLS linkages - particularly loaning players - my only anti-MLS sentiment is no MLS reserve sides in the league.

It's probably naive, but some sort of transfer agreement with our MLS clubs might make signing more attractive if players can see that the league won't go to egregious means to stop them from moving upwards.

I remember from the Lynx days that some prospective players were put off by the potential to have their career progression stymied by a pro contract.  I always found the Hartrells to be pretty good about letting guys go, but I can understand the trepidation of signing a binding contract to play bush league soccer for KFC money.  And in this climate, with real opportunities in MLS, other US leagues and Europe, I can see players being reticent to sign on.

[matty]

Notes on yo post

36 minutes ago, Marc said:

Great idea.  It's a bit Sim City for my liking, but I'd suggest:

• Eight teams, with potential for four more if the league is successful WHILE I THINK THE LAUNCH WILL THE 6 TEAMS, 8 TEAMS SHOULD BE THE GOAL WITHIN THE FIRST 5 YEARS. I ALSO THINK IT WILL BE A LONG TERM NUMBER FOR 10 YEARS~
• Ideally a majority of owners of known, national stature (that may be too hopeful) WOULD LOVE THIS
• A ten year plan that takes into account ten years of consistent losses and the ability to break even on attendances of 5000ish. YES
• An alternate plan to mitigate effects of early league contraction and/or drastically low attendance figures YES
• A last gasp disaster avoidance plan if league contracts significantly (e.g. shift to USL? Who knows, just need to find some way to keep continuity for clubs that are alive) YES
• A twenty year plan for moving into more soccer-appropriate venues MAYBE, I THINK THIS PLAN IS DEPENDANT ON 2026. I ALSO DON'T SEE NEW 10-15K SEATER STADIUMS BEING BUILT IN CITIES THAT HAVE BUILT A NEW CFL STADIUM IN THE LAST DECADE ALREADY WITHIN THE NEXT 20 YEARS.
• Each club should have a plan for youth development (doesn't have to be academies, can use existing youth clubs) YES. WHETHER ACADIMIES (WHICH WE WOULDN'T LIKELY SEE FOR 3-5 YEARS) OR PARTNERSHIPS WITH SCHOOLS
• Mandatory linkages/fostering/accommodation of fan groups in some manner YES
• Canadian content rules of 50 percent, including coaches, with a plan to gradually increase Canadian content, both players and coaches YES FOR PLAYERS, MAYBE A TWO CANADIAN COACHING STAFF MEMBER MINIMUM. I DO THINK WHEN THE LEAGUE LAUNCHES, GUYS LIKE MARCINA, BRENNAN AND WATSON WILL BE AMONG THE FIRST BATCH OF HEAD COACHES
• A three-year recruitment plan (this could be unnecessary if the league is single entity)
• League-wide standard salary grid, including a salary floor / living wage for a set percentage of a club's players (ditto re: not being needed if single entity) $35,000 MINIMUM SALARY I HOPE
• No amateur players; No MLS reserve sides YES
• League wide marketing plan, including merchandising through a major national retailer CANADIAN TIRE. I WOULD ALSO ADD A NATIONAL RESTAURANT/SPORTSBAR CHAIN TO MY CPL MARKETING WISH LIST
• National television coverage.  No local Rogers/Shaw crapola. YES

 

[lazlo_80]

3 minutes ago, Marc said:

Great post.  For the record, I'm totally down with some sort of MLS linkages - particularly loaning players - my only anti-MLS sentiment is no MLS reserve sides in the league. 

to that linkage idea, I have a feeling the Canadian Generation Adidas rule will essentially be used to give kids in the CPL with bigger potential a shot to sign with MLS cap-hit free. Basically what you see happening with Shome right now.

[dyslexic nam]

11 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

to that linkage idea, I have a feeling the Canadian Generation Adidas rule will essentially be used to give kids in the CPL with bigger potential a shot to sign with MLS cap-hit free. Basically what you see happening with Shome right now.

Been a whioe since I read about it, but wouldn't this violate the "MLS as first pro contract" clause that was outlined during the announcement?

[lazlo_80]

4 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Been a whioe since I read about it, but wouldn't this violate the "MLS as first pro contract" clause that was outlined during the announcement?

This is where the MLS and it's rules get so silly...

there were two different designations introduced.

The Canadians as domestics rule was for any player who signed with a "CSA Approved academy" before the age of 16 then signed first with MLS. Thats for them to count as domestics.

The other designation that was introduced was the "Canadian generation adidas" player, which puts players into the MLS Superdraft and have no cap hit if they are drafted. So a guy like Shome can go and play anywhere in the MLS with no cap hit. Similarly a potential kid from a CPL team could do the same.

These two designations afford a player different things, but for example in the case of Adonijah Reid, if ANB Futbol is recognized as a "CSA Approved Academy" he could in fact have no cap hit as well as being considered a domestic because he signed a CGA contract.

oh and they could've just said "all canadians are domestic"...but you know, that would've been too easy.

 

[Ansem]

9 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

 If a cross-border league is good enough for something as core to Canadian national identity as hockey, I find it bizarre that the need for soccer to follow a similar approach to make things work financially at the D1 level would ever have to be defended on here. Do you guys go onto NHL boards and campaign for a Canadian Hockey League with teams in Halifax and Regina rather than Los Angeles and New York? Somehow I seriously doubt it.

NHL was funded in Canada; Montreal 1917 and now the 7 teams accounts for over 33% of revenues of that league with our TV contract doubled of the US deal. Our pal Gary Bettman pulled the trigger on "Americanizing" the league and move its business south and massively expanding there while having the balls to say "gee... I don't know if Toronto can support another team but Vegas can!". Canadians still have that attachment to the NHL due to its history and being our game from the get go...so is the Stanley Cup that's not even technically the NHL property but Canada's. The CHL already exists. The NHL was originally a Canadian league that expanded south in the US after it's inception but economics gave American dominance on its affair.

That was just to debunk the poor comparison 

MLS is an American league that clearly stated that Canada could forget about more D1 teams. I don't know about you, but 3 Canadian D1 teams that barely starts Canadians won't help us, hence the need for our own D1 league. Most people would agreed if MLS had a "Canadian division of 8-10 teams with Canadians being fully domestics, we wouldn't be having this discussion, nor this thread nor any need for CPL.

It's perplexing to some people as to why you still believe the USSF structure is our salvation when they aren't hiding their intentions on limiting Canada's place in their affair. There's no way I can take seriously your desire to see the Men's national program improve when you advocate for a D3 USL solution with a handful (Today's 5%-not all starting) maybe making it to MLS.

CPL is needed and needs to grow to become a strong Division 1 league or even my unborn kids won't see Canada make it to the Hex in their lifetime 

27 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I agree with most of Marc's points above, but I think MLS affiliates in other cities as opposed to reserve teams should be allowed, because it pushes things at least 3/8ths of the way to stability and can be used to take better advantage of the new domestic player rule in MLS. Could there even be a way to get all the teams in the league affiliated loosely to an MLS franchise so all Canadian players signing their first pro contract would be leaving their options wide open in MLS terms further into their career? Think that sort of scenario should be explored if the greater good of the national program is a key consideration in all of this.

The proximity with the States makes your proposal difficult. Any perception of being a sub level to MLS would be disastrous for marketing. CPL doesn't need to convince us soccer fans to follow it, but they need to convince casual fans or those who aren't currently into it to buy the product and follow it. CFL being affiliate to NFL would have buried them long ago, yet they are still around and market themselves as Canada's top league. That's how it's supposed to be done.

Does anybody doubts NHL can work in Hamilton? No but they had the Montreal Canadians AHL team for years and could barely draw a decent crowd. You project a 2nd rated image to people and they will treat you as such in kind. Affiliation from the get go is a sure way to hurt CPL before kickoff. Could affiliation be an option if CPL was in an NASL nightmare scenario? Perhaps and I would actually gladly explore that avenue, but not before kickoff. Give CPL a chance to show what they have and can do.

As for stability, I think the CPL owners deserve a shot at making it work before calling that league unstable before the first kick-off.

37 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Beyond that, if one thing came out of recent pages, I hope the belief that FIFA tournament crowds can be used to gauge probable interest in a domestic pro leagues is something that is only confined to fan boards and is not happening in boardrooms where investment in soccer is being discussed. That said, it would help to explain the attributed quotes about 6000 to 8000 being the goal they have in mind in Halifax, and that is a little scary as it suggests the alternate plan and disaster avoidance scenarios might be needed a few games into the first season, if things follow the Edmonton Aviators trajectory. 

MLS certainly used the 1994 World Cup crowds to gauge interest for their league, why shouldn't CPL use that as a rough idea of what they could realistically attract to their game and come up with a business plan to make that number viable?

Edmonton Aviators played in a league that no one cared about, just like when Montreal Impact played in that league in the 2000s. No one cared about them and if they made the news, it was a freakin miracle. But Montreal had something other Canadian franchises in those US backwater leagues didn't have. JOEY SAPUTO a Canadian BILLIONAIRE who was all in and could easily afford to lose money on the team and work his way up to win Montrealer fans slowly but surely. He got the team in NASL, built Stade Saputo (soccer specific), hired the right people to get the team into the Champions League in 2009 and had them play in Olympic Stadium which was marketing genius. Ignoring the team was easy but no one ignores a Olympic Stadium event.

That's what your Aviators and other teams didn't have. Also, it was owners like Joey Saputo that started the MLS and kept it alive to become what it is today. That solid, deep pocket group of ownership is what the CSL and previous Pre-MLS D1 teams in the USA disn't have either. MLS figured it out...single-entity with a group of deep pocket owners willing and able to lose/bleeding money the first few years. It seems that's exactly what CPL are looking to replicate and for that, for the 1st time, there's reasons to be optimistic.

 

 

[rob.notenboom]

1 hour ago, lazlo_80 said:

to that linkage idea, I have a feeling the Canadian Generation Adidas rule will essentially be used to give kids in the CPL with bigger potential a shot to sign with MLS cap-hit free. Basically what you see happening with Shome right now.

Potentially a watershed moment. I wondered if the 'CanPL clause' so to speak would be that top prospects from CanPL would get MLS access through GA. I suppose some kind of MLS domestic status waiver for players that came up through designated academies and signed their first pro contract with CanPL is possible.

Suddenly I'm anticipating MLS levels of complicated contract rules infesting all of Canada. 

[lazlo_80]

Just now, rob.notenboom said:

Potentially a watershed moment. I wondered if the 'CanPL clause' so to speak would be that top prospects from CanPL would get MLS access through GA. I suppose some kind of MLS domestic status waiver for players that came up through designated academies and signed their first pro contract with CanPL is possible.

Suddenly I'm anticipating MLS levels of complicated contract rules infesting all of Canada. 

I think this is a good thing. And to a point i made many many pages back...this suddenly gives the CSA so much power it didn't have before. Now if a province/city/club doesn't want to follow the LTPD model or anything else they want done on the grassroots level, they simply don't give them the distinction of being a "CSA approved academy" and potentially hurt their recruitment potential when they're trying to get the best and brightest local talent to play for them.

As crazy and weird as these rules are, there's sort of a Machiavellian genius to why the CSA agreed to them.

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

Potentially a watershed moment. I wondered if the 'CanPL clause' so to speak would be that top prospects from CanPL would get MLS access through GA. I suppose some kind of MLS domestic status waiver for players that came up through designated academies and signed their first pro contract with CanPL is possible.

Suddenly I'm anticipating MLS levels of complicated contract rules infesting all of Canada. 

Exactly, if the CSA makes CPL academies eligible for the program, MLS can easily change the rules about contracts (out of CSA control) just enough to poach a Arfield or Hoilett type of players and make the rest ineligible by establishing a cap of some sort.  Any pro league "Legal departments" aren't just for show.

They could easily find a ground to discriminate against CPL academies by viewing them as "competition" to make sure the best players would go to an MLS academy first

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

As crazy and weird as these rules are, there's sort of a Machiavellian genius to why the CSA agreed to them.

Also, it could ultimately beneficiate the CPL as well.

The best prospects would most likely seek an MLS academy first to have the domestic status in MLS. If our 3 MLS teams open more academies, that still doesn't address the number of spot available in MLS. Realistically, if you don't have talent like a Larin, Akindele, Johnson, Bernier or Osorio, a US based teams are unlikely to pick a Canadian over an American of similar skills.

I would expect CPL academies pressuring MLS teams to open more academies in Canada to get their hands on the best prospects. In the end, that's still a lot more kids being given the best training around with nowhere else to go but CPL if their MLS/USL career stagnates. Once their contracts are up, CPL makes more sense for getting minutes, potentially better pay, starting opportunities and potentially developing into that quality player by playing more often. With them having signed their 1st deal in MLS or from a USL affiliate team, it doesn't matter if they play in CPL after, they would still retain their domestic status for MLS.

[lazlo_80]

I predict if CPL has good enough academies they'll be "CSA approved". I imagine we'll see Sigma and other academies, especially ones in L1O and PLSQ who are in those leagues the CSA prefers will be "CSA approved" too.

[Kent]

3 hours ago, Marc said:

• A three-year recruitment plan (this could be unnecessary if the league is single entity), I think finding good enough players will be a challenge in the current market
• No amateur players; No NCAA kids; No MLS reserve sides; Judicious limits on the number of loaned players

I'm curious about the first bullet point I quoted above. What do you mean by a three year recruitment plan? Are you suggesting teams take 3 years to build a roster before the team kicks off for the first time?

And the no NCAA kids part of the second bullet point. Does that mean you don't want players like Cyle Larin or Jordan Morris? I obviously don't expect the CPL to be able to pull top prospects away from MLS, but I don't think any league, in particular a brand new league, would adopt a "no rookies!" rule, if I'm understanding you correctly.

[ted]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

MLS certainly used the 1994 World Cup crowds to gauge interest for their league, why shouldn't CPL use that as a rough idea of what they could realistically attract to their game and come up with a business plan to make that number viable?

Yes and no. MLS may have used WC'94 crowds to gauge interest but there is no way they expected the same numbers to show up for league games and neither can we.

The number of tickets sold to see elite players in a showcase limited-duration event cannot be expected to show up for average players in a regular league game. MLS nearly collapsed in the early years and their attendances, in some of the very same stadiums, was far lower than the sell-out crowds on '94.

I would suggest that, at best, the ratio for CPL would be somewhere around 10:1 in that for every 10 people who came to a marquee game in the past 1 person will come to a league game. Now I think we could do better than that in some cities and I am the first to admit the ratio is based mostly on the experience here in Victoria where we had large numbers come to the U21 world cup games and less than 1/10 of that number turned up when the Highlanders landed with a splash.

The CPL being actual professional could achieve a ratio of more like 8:1 IMO but not much better without some marketing miracle occurring and setting goals with any different number is just setting up for failure.

In my opinion the CPL must set their targets for average attendance, over the whole league, in the 3-4,000 mark in year one with reasonable follow-on targets that increase to 5-6,000 (over the whole league remember) in year 5 AND they should budget for 5,000 as the break-even threshold for those first five years.

[Marc]

40 minutes ago, Kent said:

I'm curious about the first bullet point I quoted above. What do you mean by a three year recruitment plan? Are you suggesting teams take 3 years to build a roster before the team kicks off for the first time?

And the no NCAA kids part of the second bullet point. Does that mean you don't want players like Cyle Larin or Jordan Morris? I obviously don't expect the CPL to be able to pull top prospects away from MLS, but I don't think any league, in particular a brand new league, would adopt a "no rookies!" rule, if I'm understanding you correctly.

My apologies, I was unclear and imprecise.  Current and prospective NCAAers can't play on pro teams even if they're unpaid so that reference of mine was inaccurate.  All I meant was that the league should have no amateurs, no university kids, unpaid players, etc, no bush league stuff.

Re; the recruitment plan, we're going to have to compete with MLS, NASL/USL, and a Europe that's more open to Canadians and others than ever before.

I don't think we sign people three years in advance but I think there needs to be a co-ordinated approach to sourcing talent over the first few years of league operations.

I think there needs to be some centralized thought and planning re: what type of players can we reasonably expect to attract, the wages needed to attract them, wage expectations over the medium term, what levels of experience are needed across a team and the league, what level of local amateur content will move up into the marginal roster spots, where are these players are going to come from, anticipate and address regional recruitment disparities/challenges, if some players are signed centrally how will they be assigned to clubs evenly, whether co-ordinated efforts will be made to entice marginal Canadian Nats into the team, that sort of thing.

We need to ensure the first few years are not just a free-for-all of finding whoever is available the quickest...avoid filling cold roster seats with unqualified warm bums...avoid a big personality coach bringing in his/her pet but unqualified players from regional amateur leagues and failing miserably....avoid disadvantaging the Winnipegs from the outset...avoid a TFC-esque situation in year one and two where the talent, at least, was really not good enough - because that was one team in an established league, and we're launching a whole league at once here.  That being said, this type of planning may not be effective or realistic.

[Macksam]

5 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

That said, it would help to explain the attributed quotes about 6000 to 8000 being the goal they have in mind in Halifax (if the Women's World Cup numbers from 2015 in Moncton were used for comparison purposes), and that is a little scary as it suggests the alternate plan and disaster avoidance scenarios might be needed a few games into the first season, if things follow the Edmonton Aviators trajectory. 

Things could follow the Columbus Crew trajectory as well. Technically, the CPL launch would have a lot more in common with the MLS launch than the Aviators launch.

I don't know why I bother replying to this guy considering he's set me to ignore due to the fact I've made him feel stupid too many times in the past.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

so this idea just came up, to help launch some SGs

I could see this being effective.

 

you guys know where to find me