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14 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

Once again, the well gets poisoned and we still have the MLS teams and we are back to where we are right now, or are you somehow implying that if the CanPL comes around and fails, that is going to somehow cause support for the existing MLS teams to evapourate?

Easy to say when you are in what is basically an outer suburb of Toronto. What happens in the other cities that are not an easy travel distance from an MLS team, if you poison the well for them? Even London is arguably in this camp as most people would regard the drive as too long to do 18+ times a season, and it should be remembered that but for the CSA's moratorium London may well have had a USL team by now along with Victoria and Winnipeg.

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CanPL Fever…Catch It!

     There will be a Special Announcement regarding the Canadian Premier League (notice how I didn’t say “Imminent” Announcement) this Wednesday at Noon! Hoping to gain some valuable street cred in the soccer community by breaking this news exclusively on this site prior to the launch of my new CanPL blog & podcast. Rock On CanPL!

 

Canadian Soccer Fan

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This may be a 'newbish' question BUT.......

I see many people talking about a 'soccer pyramid' American/Canadian. Also I have been following the discussion on whether USL and NASL should be division 2/3 etc....

I guess my question is since in Canada and the USA there is no relegation and promotion why do levels matter?? I mean If you called USL division 1 or division 72 what is the actual difference? I mean we all know NASL and USL is below MLS so why does there have to be official designations? Just wondering.

Just like people are insisting the CPL will be a division one league in Canada. I mean is there a need to have divisions in Canada? I mean no matter what label you put on the CPL it is going to be a level of play below MLS. Do we need soccer federation to really tell us what level we should view it as?

 

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

This may be a 'newbish' question BUT.......

I see many people talking about a 'soccer pyramid' American/Canadian. Also I have been following the discussion on whether USL and NASL should be division 2/3 etc....

I guess my question is since in Canada and the USA there is no relegation and promotion why do levels matter?? I mean If you called USL division 1 or division 72 what is the actual difference? I mean we all know NASL and USL is below MLS so why does there have to be official designations? Just wondering.

Just like people are insisting the CPL will be a division one league in Canada. I mean is there a need to have divisions in Canada? I mean no matter what label you put on the CPL it is going to be a level of play below MLS. Do we need soccer federation to really tell us what level we should view it as?

 

 

 

 

 

For us it's largely semantics. 

For the States, they make the different divisions play by different rules for some reason.

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6 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

....why do levels matter??...

Biggest difference it makes is the level of access, if any, to national cup competitions and the CONCACAF Champions League. Beyond that it's mainly about prestige, which is why certain people insist "CPL" would be D1 when in de facto terms MLS still would be in reality and it's the Ottawa Fury and to a lesser extent FC Edmonton that are being mentioned as a possible members rather than TFC, the Impact and Whitecaps.

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20 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

This may be a 'newbish' question BUT.......

I see many people talking about a 'soccer pyramid' American/Canadian. Also I have been following the discussion on whether USL and NASL should be division 2/3 etc....

I guess my question is since in Canada and the USA there is no relegation and promotion why do levels matter?? I mean If you called USL division 1 or division 72 what is the actual difference? I mean we all know NASL and USL is below MLS so why does there have to be official designations? Just wondering.

Just like people are insisting the CPL will be a division one league in Canada. I mean is there a need to have divisions in Canada? I mean no matter what label you put on the CPL it is going to be a level of play below MLS. Do we need soccer federation to really tell us what level we should view it as?

 

 

 

 

 

It matters for a couple reasons

First off, sports, especially soccer, is often a vanity industry for extremely wealthy individuals. Sure, the goal is to eventually be profitable and to not lose tons of money, but worldwide many (most?) clubs exist as a vanity piece for someone who make their money elsewhere. When you are choosing where to park your investment, narratives matter, and the higher tier will generally be more attractive. 

Second, it changes what is expected of the league. Now, the USSF pyramid issue is a bit odd, since neither USL or NASL meet their D2 requirements, but in general the idea is if you can't start a club with X stadium capacity and Y player salaries, you should be able to call yourself the same level as clubs in a league that do so. 

For CPL, I'm not 100% convinced it will be D1, but I hope it will be, since I think it is the only way to fulfill the potential of the league. We'll see

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31 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

This may be a 'newbish' question BUT.......

I see many people talking about a 'soccer pyramid' American/Canadian. Also I have been following the discussion on whether USL and NASL should be division 2/3 etc....

I guess my question is since in Canada and the USA there is no relegation and promotion why do levels matter?? I mean If you called USL division 1 or division 72 what is the actual difference? I mean we all know NASL and USL is below MLS so why does there have to be official designations? Just wondering.

Just like people are insisting the CPL will be a division one league in Canada. I mean is there a need to have divisions in Canada? I mean no matter what label you put on the CPL it is going to be a level of play below MLS. Do we need soccer federation to really tell us what level we should view it as?

 

 

 

 

 

sandor wrote an article about this for plastic pitch a few days ago and it's actually a really good point.  It kinds of hurts more than it helps honestly.

or maybe you read the article too :P

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3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Biggest difference it makes is the level of access, if any, to national cup competitions and the CONCACAF Champions League. Beyond that it's mainly about prestige, which is why certain people insist "CPL" would be D1 when in de facto terms MLS still would be in reality and it's the Ottawa Fury and to a lesser extent FC Edmonton that are being mentioned as a possible members rather than TFC, the Impact and Whitecaps.

With your logic, it's MLS that should be D2. Liga MX can't be touched as D1

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On 1/6/2017 at 11:48 AM, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...and we had been led to believe it was going to be in December. The latest from the CSA president was a slightly odd interview in which he stated no name had been agreed upon for the league despite CPL having been trademarked and widely used in the media in recent months and Paul Beirne who had been reported as having been hired by the league was described as representing a swathe of the ownership. Personally, I am mildly encouraged by that in terms of the CSA insisting on getting all the ducks in a row before proceeding on sanctioning anything, but suspect Victor Montagliani will be tempted to rush things through in the next couple of months as he is about to leave the CSA for CONCACAF presidency and wants to be the one in the limelight rather than Paul Beirne.

Yea honestly the fact that lots is happening now at the grassroots level but we're still yet to see an announcement is good I think.  

We need SGs to lay the foundation so that we have a lineup of people waiting for CPL before it happens as opposed to launching it without a significant level of grassroots support.

I was initially hoping that the announcement came sooner but I'm actually okay with it being delayed now because I think it would be in the best interest of the league.  

Once all the supporters groups are in place and ready to act, then announce.

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Another sort of 'newb' question. I haven't seen a second of play from the USL or the NASL til about 3 weeks ago. Then I decided to watch a few games/highlights to see the quality. So my questions are....

1) Is it just me or does the quality of play in the NASL seem much better then in the USL? To me it seemed a notch up for sure.

2) Where do you think the CPL quality of play will start out as. USL,  NASL, somewhere in betwen or neither? 

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https://mobile.twitter.com/AaCamp81/status/817846592342372352

I believe this guy writes for the league, so not a total random rumour (edit: he writes for aftn, but not sure which aftn author writes for mlssoccer.com)

If VWC are selling their USL franchise, I'd be  curious as to what direction they are going. Maybe a BBTB-esque partnership for a CPL team instead, maybe USL turning around and pressuring the sale of the MLS2 teams as MLS and the presence of farm teams apparently hurt USL in the D2 wars, or maybe it's just VWC being cheap and not seeing enough productivity from VWC II to warrant their existence. Or it could just be another rumour that doesn't come true

If it's just MLS teams being cheap, it will be pretty disappointing to see two MLS teams cut their development teams after such a short run

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59 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

Another sort of 'newb' question. I haven't seen a second of play from the USL or the NASL til about 3 weeks ago. Then I decided to watch a few games/highlights to see the quality. So my questions are....

1) Is it just me or does the quality of play in the NASL seem much better then in the USL? To me it seemed a notch up for sure.

2) Where do you think the CPL quality of play will start out as. USL,  NASL, somewhere in betwen or neither? 

1) I agree. For what it's worth (not much)  I always found the play in NASL to be sharper and quicker. To me, the speed at which (good) decisions are made is a good marker for the quality, and USL always seems a bit slower and looser. Granted, I only watch three or four games a year from those leagues, and USL is mostly TFCII, so small sample size warning 

2) Depends on if the reported cap is accurate, what the quota will be, and the narrative painted by the press (which I think matters more than people think). 

100+ Canadians already play in USL for unlivable wages, many of which more or less came out of the woodwork, so I don't think matching USL in terms of player quality will be too difficult. What will be difficult is putting together cohesive rosters on short notice (assuming 2018 happens) with players completely unfamiliar with each other. I expect lots of sloppy long ball simply because it will be the equivalent of a bunch of expansion franchises playing against each other. 

If we are looking at a 40-50% quota and 1.5M cap, I think somewhere between USL and NASL is reasonable for the first few years, and a general upward trend as the league becomes accepted as a legitimate career option if spending remains in that range

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1 hour ago, Complete Homer said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/AaCamp81/status/817846592342372352

I believe this guy writes for the league, so not a total random rumour (edit: he writes for aftn, but not sure which aftn author writes for mlssoccer.com)

If VWC are selling their USL franchise, I'd be  curious as to what direction they are going. Maybe a BBTB-esque partnership for a CPL team instead, maybe USL turning around and pressuring the sale of the MLS2 teams as MLS and the presence of farm teams apparently hurt USL in the D2 wars, or maybe it's just VWC being cheap and not seeing enough productivity from VWC II to warrant their existence. Or it could just be another rumour that doesn't come true

If it's just MLS teams being cheap, it will be pretty disappointing to see two MLS teams cut their development teams after such a short run

Calgary Whitehills FC

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2 hours ago, grasshopper1917 said:

Another sort of 'newb' question. I haven't seen a second of play from the USL or the NASL til about 3 weeks ago. Then I decided to watch a few games/highlights to see the quality. So my questions are....

1) Is it just me or does the quality of play in the NASL seem much better then in the USL? To me it seemed a notch up for sure.

2) Where do you think the CPL quality of play will start out as. USL,  NASL, somewhere in betwen or neither? 

1) Depends on who you were watching. USL's top sits around the top-half of NASL but they've a much lower bottom, but their average really only sits a little lower than NASL's average. This will probably take a step up now that some of the bottom is disappearing and many of the top are pushing for MLS movement. It'll be interesting to see what damage this past year will do to NASL's ability to attract talent, and how things will roll out. 

2) To start? Probably bottom half of the NASL table. It'll improve, but it won't match either league's average play right away.

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2 hours ago, Rintaran said:

1) Depends on who you were watching. USL's top sits around the top-half of NASL but they've a much lower bottom, but their average really only sits a little lower than NASL's average. This will probably take a step up now that some of the bottom is disappearing and many of the top are pushing for MLS movement. It'll be interesting to see what damage this past year will do to NASL's ability to attract talent, and how things will roll out. 

2) To start? Probably bottom half of the NASL table. It'll improve, but it won't match either league's average play right away.

...unless Marc Dos Santos is coaching one of the teams, in which case they'll play above their pay grade and like a team that's played together for years.

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11 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/AaCamp81/status/817846592342372352

I believe this guy writes for the league, so not a total random rumour (edit: he writes for aftn, but not sure which aftn author writes for mlssoccer.com)...

If you want a conspiracy theory, is it possible that the Ottawa Fury bought the Impact's USL franchise as a cheaper way into the league given the expansion fee is said to be around $USD 3.5 million? Once that precedent was set in Ottawa with the blackmail factor of do this or the Fury fold helping things along, the mandatory USL affiliates for the other two MLS teams could then easily be moved to other Canadian cities with local owners in place AAA baseball style in each case. Would have thought that Victoria would be the most obvious destination for VWFC2 under that scenario and you have already let the cat out of the bag as to where TFC2 could ultimately end up in southern Ontario. At that point they can offer to take in the "CPL" swathe of ownership and create a Canadian division within USL and the CSA gets the cross-border league it controls to put it in Victor Montagliani terms and the Hamilton Steelers (come on you know it makes sense to use the name with over 50 years of history) don't wind up playing against a team branded TFC2.

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Moving reserve teams from one city to another does absolutely nothing for Canadian soccer. We'd have the same amount of teams but less cities to utilize. We already just went from 3 USL and 2 NASL down to 3 and 1. How is that better?

The travel for an all Canadian division would also be far too expensive for USL budgets. Keep in mind they already want nothing to do with Edmonton for this reason. If the CPL can't get off the ground and we have to use USL we'd be better off sticking to regional cross border leagues. The CSA would just have to make their sanctioning conditional on roster requirements. 

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If true, this selling and moving WFC2 to Alberta is baffling to me.

Moving WFC2 to Edmonton doesn't make any sense as FC Edmonton has struggled to draw crowds for NASL, fighting the perception of a minor league product. Putting an MLS reserve team won't fare any better, and in my opinion would actually draw worse than WFC2 have in the first two years. Do you want to draw FC Montreal level crowds? Then move the club to Edmonton. As well, Fath is a big stakeholder in NASL, and I can't imagine he would be interested in investing in USL. Or are WFC2 are going to be sold to a different ownership group, and are planning on directly competing with FC Edmonton? 

Calgary makes a little more sense given that Calgary Foothills have mentioned that their next goal is USL. But they do not have the money to run a USL club. So there would have to be another ownership group involved. Also Calgary has a complete lack of a suitable stadium for USL, and a city that only draws for big league sports. As with Edmonton, I don't know if putting WFC2 in Calgary would draw more fans than what they currently got at UBC.

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Think an affiliate is a completely different scenario from a reserve team in terms of likely fan interest (Ottawa will be the litmus test on that in a Canadian context obviously, so maybe the Whitecaps will wait to see how that goes?) and it's good to hear that the NASL folding would not necessarily have been the definitive end of the road for FC Edmonton as they appear to have contemplated VWFC2 as a plan B scenario.

Think the Calgary Foothills makes a lot of sense as the likely buyer in a Calgary context given what they have talked about publicly previously with USL, and getting their existing stadium up to USSF D2 standards would be be no more challenging than the issues that will be faced elsewhere by teams like Swope Park Rangers and TFC2, so I suspect they would be able to get waivers on that for a few seasons. FC Edmonton did initially in an NASL context and I have seen it claimed that the NASL has never been fully compliant with D2 standards at any point in its existance and has always needed waivers.

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I agree that a Whitecaps affiliate versus a Whitecaps reserve team would be the key if WFC2 were to move. I think the former could potentially work in Calgary if it is a partnership between Whitecaps and the existing Calgary youth clubs, but it has to be all of them. It can't just be a Whitecaps / Foothills partnership as the youth club scene in Calgary is very petty. Those involved with other youth clubs will not support a Foothills team, and Foothills parents / kids often won't make it out to what it the fourth or fifth soccer game of the week.

A reserve team? Forget about it. Minor league sports in Calgary are not well received; this is a wannabe big league city. Might as well stay at UBC in that case.

Calgary Foothills as a sole owner of a USL club will not happen, they simply do not have the funds to run a USL club. They nearly pulled the plug on PDL before the whole thing started until a lucrative (for PDL, anyways) shirt sponsor chipped in to save the project. Their youth club is propping up the PDL club as expenses are only around 250K a year (as per the club's VP), but I don't think they are profitable enough to prop up a USL club.

Regarding expanding the stadium they play in, Glenmore is a city athletic park, and upgrading the stadium to meet USL standards would require the removal of other playing fields, so that is unlikely. Hellard is a city athletic park, as well, and there may be room to add additional stands to get to capacity. However, the stadium was built via fundraising of the gridiron football community, so there would be a big power struggle over the field there. Calgary Rugby Park might work in terms of capacity, but it's in an industrial area with no amenities, just one bus route with limited service, and just a little bit of parking, so that would hamper attendance. 

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We haven't even gotten into whether or not the CSA would sanction a USL team that wasn't in Vancouver as the Caps' second team. Not sure if they would or not and not sure if they are in on these discussions or not. Interestingly, Aaron Campbell (at least I think it was him) also tweeted that selling and moving the USL team and starting an NWSL team were two completely separate and unrelated issues. 

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