Canadian Premier League

[Gordon]

Toronto Lynx, had modest attendance for their entire existence. TFC has had very good attendance for their entire existence. In the first few year, TFC was bad, and if we're being honest with ourselves, the level of play of MLS is not higher enough to account for an 8 fold increase even in these heady Giovinco days. The owners, their commitment desire to have a truly professional product with good marketing and presence will drive attendance. If the CPL operate as if 2-3k attendance is their goal, it will fail. Considerably more is possible.

[Gopherbashi]

8 hours ago, marauder01 said:

Are yooooou Totera? Are yooooou Totera?

Are you Totera in disguise?!

Are you Totera in disguise?
 

New Barton St. song?

[Blackdude]

Totera isn't Mister215Guy. Totera may love his CPL, but he thinks that MLS is 1 million times better than what Mister215Guy says.

[Ansem]

5 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

One of the key problems with Canadian soccer is that very few people ever seem to want to remember what happened more than about five years ago. The Edmonton Aviators were launched in 2003 after the investors got dollar signs before their eyes cartoon style over the crowds at Commonwealth Stadium for the U-20 Women's World Cup. They folded after one season after the league had to step in to get the team through to the end of the season after the anticipated crowds of 11,000 per game failed to materialize:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton_Aviators

Moral of the story? For D2 level soccer in a smaller Canadian market, you should not be expecting more than 2000 paid on average in year one. Having owners involved that are expecting a lot more than that is a recipe for disaster.

 

Why do you use poor examples to make your case?

Kind of hard to get excited for a league (USL A League?) when NASL and MLS were already around. Did you account for that league effort to make locals care about it? (assuming the team tried to make it matter locally). It's like expecting Las Vegas to get a hard on for a XFL franchise while the NFL already exist...I wonder why they folded after a year

Like I said before and I'll say it again... Canadians aren't dumb. Sell your product as 3rd or 4th rated and they'll treat it as such. Pitch them a top level product and they'll treat it as such

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 hour ago, Complete Homer said:

Because 'clearly' nothing has changed in the past 15 years. 

Pro soccer is still pro soccer and Canada is still Canada, so why would you expect a drastically different outcome? The Whitecaps and Impact in MLS are doing about as well as the Whitecaps and Manic did in the original NASL 35 years previously, while TFC do a bit better than the Blizzard and Metros-Croatia did as there are no longer close to fully pro NSL teams with ethnic appeal like Toronto Italia competing with them in the same market, so it is a easier now to tap into the very large numbers of existing soccer fans from recent immigrant backgrounds. 

The main difference this time around is that MLS painstakingly figured out a sustainable economic model to make the numbers work on 15,000 paid, because a couple of billionaires stubbornly refused to let it fold during its first decade when they tried to make it work as tenants in NFL and large NCAA college stadia and were losing money hand over fist as a result even with single entity in place. They stumbled onto the soccer specfic stadium almost by accident after the Crew built a stadium in Columbus and slowly moved over to something closer to what had originally been the League One America proposal for D1 sanctioning.  

The problem with D2 level soccer in North America is that the sustainable model for doing something similar to what MLS has achieved in larger markets has yet to emerge, so franchises are still folding left, right and centre a few years in. An ongoing revolving door expansion process is needed to keep the numbers up, if you don't have MLS reserve teams as part of the mix. It's easier to keep that scenario going for longer, if you don't deliberately fence yourself in to only around 10% of the available markets.

[Marc]

36 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Why do you use poor examples to make your case?

Kind of hard to get excited for a league (USL A League?) when NASL and MLS were already around. Did you account for that league effort to make locals care about it? (assuming the team tried to make it matter locally). It's like expecting Las Vegas to get a hard on for a XFL franchise while the NFL already exist...I wonder why they folded after a year

Like I said before and I'll say it again... Canadians aren't dumb. Sell your product as 3rd or 4th rated and they'll treat it as such. Pitch them a top level product and they'll treat it as such

Unless I'm missing something here, the Aviators example is quite decent.  The NASL wasn't around when the Aviators were founded and MLS wasn't in Canada either.  The Aviators had no local pro competitors.  IIRC, even the indoor Drillers had folded by then.

I think the underlying disagreement here is this idea that pitching a top product means people will show.  There is no guarantee that the product will be top, that it will be well-pitched and that if they build it they will come.  Bob Young has done well to revive the Ti-Cats.  But he has also done it in a town where 1) he's a big time charlie, 2) football's the only show, and 3) where the team has been around in some capacity since 1883.

We don't have multinational billionaries to bankroll a league for ten or fifteen years of losses.  It was not that long ago that MLS was teetering toward a league of Rochesters and Columbuses rather than what we have now.  The tier two/three models in the US and Canada have not proven sustainable, ever.  Blizzard may be negative but he is right.  I think the trepidation is warranted, but I can also see why others choose hope.

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, Marc said:

The Aviators had no local pro competitors

That's news to me that the Edmonton Eskimos weren't around in 2003...Pretty sure they won the Grey Cup that year...

9 minutes ago, Marc said:

I think the underlying disagreement is this idea of pitching a top product means people will show.

hmmm. they showed up for NHL and CFL...who are the top leagues in Canada in their respective sports, even CHL and University football have decent attendances. People seems to underestimate Canadians interest in cheering for their own.

12 minutes ago, Marc said:

There is no guarantee that the product will be top

It will be the Canadian Division 1, the country's top league, which we didn't have for decades.

 

14 minutes ago, Marc said:

The tier two/three models in the US and Canada have not proven sustainable, ever.  I think the trepidation is warranted, but I can also see why others choose hope.

Hence the CSA clearly copying the Tier 1 model from MLS which is a proven model instead of repeating the failures of the past.

[Gopherbashi]

47 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Pro soccer is still pro soccer and Canada is still Canada, so why would you expect a drastically different outcome?

God, with an attitude like that, it's amazing that we still take part in World Cup qualifying every four years.

[Marc]

Yikes, I thought we were going to have a discussion here but it seems like it's more fan-based wishing and hoping.  Anyway, just a quick retort

 - You mentioned that the Aviators had competition from NASL and MLS.  There was no NASL.  There was no MLS in Canada.  We are talking soccer here.

 - NHL and CFL are leagues with longstanding history and attract based on this history and the ingrained nature of their sports in the Canadian market and psyche - not based on being D1 or some other designation.  And despite this, CFL has teetered repeatedly through the modern era.

 - We had Canadian division one soccer throughout most of our modern history, including NASL, CSL and A League/USL.  Most have failed.  Plus, it will not be D1 in North America, with MLS around.

 - The MLS model is based on business owners with deep pockets, SSS, pulling in established players with decent salaries (and now DPs) and being the only soccer game in town.  This is not the case for the Canadian league, given that MLS and NASL and USL exist and most of our pros (and the NorthAm soccer player pool) make decent coin in Europe or MLS.

I certainly can understand someone thinking the league will rise above these challenges - it's more than possible and I hope it does!  But let's try to have a discussion, and not just fist pump fan chatter.

[shermanator]

I think the numbers being thrown about regarding potential attendance for a Calgary club are pie in the sky. There is zero history of this city supporting professional soccer in the last 35 years. The Boomers drew 10K, but then folded. The Storm at best drew 2K, and interest waned when they moved up to the A League before they folded. I don't know what the Kickers drew, but given that they played at Mewata Stadium, it wouldn't have been more than the Boomers, as the stadium held 10K).

Plus, despite the sport growing in this country, interest in the local game seems to be declining in this city. The current PDL incarnation gets anywhere from 500-750 a game, whereas when the Storm played in PDL they were averaging 3 times that. Sure, the club are doing okay for a PDL club when compared with the rest of the league, but for a city of 1.2 million people that's a paltry turnout. Now, I think part of this is due to the fact that Calgary Foothills are the big youth club in the city, and those in other youth clubs will not support them, but would it be much higher if this were an independent club? I don't think so.

The one argument for high attendance numbers for a Calgary club, is that CSEC is rumoured to be interested. If they end up being the owner, as much as they would suck the atmosphere out of the game, CSEC have the knowledge on how to get butts in seats for their other 4 clubs. Personally, I would be happy with a club in Calgary that draws 5K, and ecstatic with anything above 7500.

Of course, the league, with a club in Calgary would actually have to be announced to make that happen. That hasn't happened yet....

[Ansem]

16 minutes ago, Marc said:

Yikes, I thought we were going to have a discussion here but it seems like it's more fan-based wishing and hoping.

an average league attendance of 7k is fan wishing? Ok... No one is claiming CPL will sell out and be bigger than MLS

 That's my favorite question that the naysayers seems incapable of answering...

What's YOUR solution to get us TO the Hex and TO the World Cup consistently?

18 minutes ago, Marc said:

- You mentioned that the Aviators had competition from NASL and MLS.  There was no NASL.  There was no MLS in Canada.  We are talking soccer here.

My bad about NASL but you can't dismiss the Eskimos as competition. Because giving the choice of supporting the Eskimos over a team playing in a league that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, locals supporting the Eskimos made total sense.

20 minutes ago, Marc said:

- NHL and CFL are leagues with longstanding history and attract based on this history and the ingrained nature of their sports in the Canadian market and psyche - not based on being D1 or some other designation.  And despite this, CFL has teetered repeatedly through the modern era.

Both leagues were started in Canada and are still around and successful. I'm merely pointing out the appeal of a Canadian league to potential fans and it's potential success IF done right. NHL and CFL were done the right way unlike the old CSL and US leagues before MLS came around with the right business model for a North American soccer league.

Canadians interest in soccer is undeniable, what's missing is the right business model which the CSA and CPL seems to have figured out. It's up to that league to deliver it to Canadians the right way.

29 minutes ago, Marc said:

We had Canadian division one soccer throughout most of our modern history, including NASL, CSL and A League/USL.  Most have failed.  Plus, it will not be D1 in North America, with MLS around.

CSL had the wrong business model and the other leagues weren't D1. Only MLS has came up with the right business model for soccer in the US and according to reports, it's the same model CPL will most likely replicate.

Whenever I see someone saying that CPL won't be D1 in North America, I truly question their knowledge on how FIFA and country's association works. There's no North American Association. Is that clear????

The USSF is the United States soccer authority and CSA is the Canadian authority. The USSF sanctioned MLS as Division1. The CSA is in their right to sanction CPL as Division 1. We are NOT part of the USSF. The 3 Canadian MLS teams are playing in a USSF league with the permission of the CSA to operate in Canada, which can be revoked if they choose to as per FIFA rules.

Whether CPL must be at MLS level to be considered Division 1 is truly irrelevant. By going with your logic, MLS shouldn't be Division 1 because Liga MX is way above MLS, same for la Liga, EPL, Bundesliga, Serie A and Ligue 1. Despite being leagues below those leagues, MLS is the Division 1 within the USSF. Same for CPL once they get sanctioned by the CSA, they will be recognized as Canada Division 1.

39 minutes ago, Marc said:

The MLS model is based on business owners with deep pockets, SSS, pulling in established players with decent salaries (and now DPs) and being the only soccer game in town.  This is not the case for the Canadian league, given that MLS and NASL and USL exist and most of our pros (and the NorthAm soccer player pool) make decent coin in Europe or MLS.

Reports are indicating that the CPL are actively seeking the same profile for their ownership. Deep pocket owners. Reports also indicate the salary range being above USL. Other reports speculates it would be in range of NASL and possibly above.

You seem to be incapable of separating Canada from the United States. Our pros are less than 5% of MLS and I can recall only 5 starting consistently. Outside of Canadian USL teams, there are maybe less than 20 Canadian born players in US based teams in USL (yes I went to their rosters and could find like only 15 excluding Canadian teams). As for the rest of the world are, our pros for the most cases are not playing consistent minutes at the highest level. There's a lack of opportunities having a direct impact on our pros ability to develop into good players hence hurting our national program. MLS and USL won't fix that and that's mainly why CPL is indeed needed, to give our pros a place to play consistent minutes at the highest level possible so they can develop further and help our national program to improve.

North American pool? How about the world? Depending on the domestic quotas that will be required for CPL, International players will most likely be from around the world.

Again, you want to have a discussion but like the other naysayers, you just criticize without sharing what you would do better. So I ask you again, how would you improve the national program knowing that the current status quo has been a failure as since 1986, Canada has never reached the Hex or the World Cup. What's your solution?

[Ansem]

@MarcI'll give you the Montreal example as I'm from there. They could not beat the CFL Alouettes in Montreal in term of interest. They barely made the news despite their success as a team and they've been around since 1992. Their Champions league run in 2009 was the breakthrough for them when 55k fans went to Olympic Stadium against Santos Laguna and....combined with Joey Saputo building the Stade Saputo, a soccer specific stadium.

Oh...funny how a deep pocket owner who's committed in the long term to build the fan base anyway he can actually made a world of difference... would you take a look at that... 

Seems like CPL wants "Joey Saputo" owners across the board. That had to be a HUGE reason why other teams in other cities folded. They didn't have a deep pocket owner like Saputo who were committed to their team. These type of owners are the reason why MLS survived. That's what CPL needs, something the CSL didn't have...a Saputo/MLSE type of owner who can afford to lose money at first but rip the rewards down the road.

[Alex D]

1 hour ago, Marc said:

 

Plus, it will not be D1 in North America, with MLS around.

Is MLS D1 with Liga MX around?

 

Seriously though, there appears to be people in Canada with money trying to start a national soccer league. Can we just let them and see what happens? I don't get the negativity. 

[Complete Homer]

51 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Pro soccer is still pro soccer and Canada is still Canada, so why would you expect a drastically different outcome? The Whitecaps and Impact in MLS are doing about as well as the Whitecaps and Manic did in the original NASL 35 years previously, while TFC do a bit better than the Blizzard and Metros-Croatia did as there are no longer close to fully pro NSL teams with ethnic appeal like Toronto Italia competing with them in the same market, so it is a easier now to tap into the very large numbers of existing soccer fans from recent immigrant backgrounds. 

The main difference this time around is that MLS painstakingly figured out a sustainable economic model to make the numbers work on 15,000 paid, because a couple of billionaires stubbornly refused to let it fold during its first decade when they tried to make it work as tenants in NFL and large NCAA college stadia and were losing money hand over fist as a result even with single entity in place. They stumbled onto the soccer specfic stadium almost by accident after the Crew built a stadium in Columbus and slowly moved over to something closer to what had originally been the League One America proposal for D1 sanctioning.  

The problem with D2 level soccer in North America is that the sustainable model for doing something similar to what MLS has achieved in larger markets has yet to emerge, so franchises are still folding left, right and centre a few years in. An ongoing revolving door expansion process is needed to keep the numbers up, if you don't have MLS reserve teams as part of the mix. It's easier to keep that scenario going for longer, if you don't deliberately fence yourself in to only around 10% of the available markets.

The fact that MLS itself has shifted from 14k average attendance to 22k demonstrates a general trend in interest in soccer in north America over the last 15 years. Even NASL had decent had decent growth until the wheels came off last season, which was largely the result of a model that allowed teams to get poached, spend inappropriately, and panicked expansion that would all be eliminated or mitigated in a single entity CPL

In 15 years a whole slew of changes have occurred. A generation that has higher soccer participation than ever before has grown up and become relevant in the market. MLS has made the idea domestic soccer trendy in the 18-35 crowd. The population of mid sized cities has grown. The exponential growth of the value of MLS franchises stands has become an advertisement for the sport and single entity to investors, making a couple billionaire again interested in losing money to build an asset. A Canadian D2 team has managed 5500 attendance with double digit annual growth, after only 3 seasons. We may even be walking into the unprecedented excitement that would surround the lead up to being a partner in hosting a world cup. The list can go on, Canada 2017 is not Canada 2003. 

Even if the above was all false, taking data for one market and stating that, as a rule, one should nor anticipate higher attendances is poor application of evidence. One could easily cherry pick London and say that no one should expect less than 2000 in attendance in League 1 Ontario, but everyone would appropriately tune you out. 

You're right that the model is crucial, and pursuing single entity (something no other D2 league has done) is probably necessary to attract investment. With single entity, those few markets that surprise will bolster those that disappoint. Further, teams can't simply fold, either the whole league goes down or the league can manage what options (contracting the team, taking over the teams operations, etc) that suits them best, just like MLS has done several times. 

Can I point to a particular number that I think will represent average attendance? No, and anyone who tries is largely pulling that from data of uncertain applicability. The fact is that we don't know how it will shake out. But it really seems like there are plenty of interest in trying, instead of getting excited to celebrate defeat. 

[Macksam]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

Why do you use poor examples to make your case?

Kind of hard to get excited for a league (USL A League?) when NASL and MLS were already around. Did you account for that league effort to make locals care about it? (assuming the team tried to make it matter locally). It's like expecting Las Vegas to get a hard on for a XFL franchise while the NFL already exist...I wonder why they folded after a year

Like I said before and I'll say it again... Canadians aren't dumb. Sell your product as 3rd or 4th rated and they'll treat it as such. Pitch them a top level product and they'll treat it as such

NASL wasn't around back then but everything else I agree with.

2 hours ago, Marc said:

Yikes, I thought we were going to have a discussion here but it seems like it's more fan-based wishing and hoping.  Anyway, just a quick retort

 - You mentioned that the Aviators had competition from NASL and MLS.  There was no NASL.  There was no MLS in Canada.  We are talking soccer here.

 - NHL and CFL are leagues with longstanding history and attract based on this history and the ingrained nature of their sports in the Canadian market and psyche - not based on being D1 or some other designation.  And despite this, CFL has teetered repeatedly through the modern era.

 - We had Canadian division one soccer throughout most of our modern history, including NASL, CSL and A League/USL.  Most have failed.  Plus, it will not be D1 in North America, with MLS around.

 - The MLS model is based on business owners with deep pockets, SSS, pulling in established players with decent salaries (and now DPs) and being the only soccer game in town.  This is not the case for the Canadian league, given that MLS and NASL and USL exist and most of our pros (and the NorthAm soccer player pool) make decent coin in Europe or MLS.

I certainly can understand someone thinking the league will rise above these challenges - it's more than possible and I hope it does!  But let's try to have a discussion, and not just fist pump fan chatter.

NASL, USL and MLS isn't a factor if a CPL club is the only soccer team in town, which for most of the cities should be the case minus the GTA.

Also, there's also a lot more self defeatist, grasping at straws beta behaviour on here than fist pump fan chatter. Don't kid yourself into thinking otherwise.

@BringBackTheBlizzard

Canada from the 1970s isn't the same Canada today.

What Ansem says regarding presenting a professional, top tier product is key. Back then, I don't recall there being any sort of significant buzz regarding the Aviators, a team from a league no one ever deemed as major league. You can't compare that to a CPL launch, which will have nationwide buzz, playing a high number of Canadian professionals, playing in better venues (modern CFL stadiums like Tim Hortons field are more soccer friendly no doubt). Plus, we're talking about 15 years later, and believe me, the more time goes by, the more popular this sport becomes.

[Rheo]

My god this is getting ridiculous lol

Fact-MLS is an American league that features three Canadian teams but has no incentive or need to grow the Canadian game.  The fact they do anything is above and beyond what they are required to do (minus CSA mandates for the sanctioning of the three teams)

-Fact-the CPL will be the top domestic league in Canada (yes I'm assuming without proof it will come to be)

-Fact-CPL and MLS will both coexist.  Neither is a rival to another as they are different levels with different goals.  The CPL is to grow the game in Canada.  It probably won't have a major effect on the CMNT for at least ten years.

-Fact-we all want the same thing here, just believe that some ways are better than other

-Fact-we all need to relax and stop fighting 

Signed,

United Voyaguers Nations Peace Keeper 

[Rheo]

PS if we keep this up we might scare Paul Beirne away...

[rob.notenboom]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FdCy6MGOVfw

[Rheo]

3 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FdCy6MGOVfw

I thought about posting Rodney King's "Can't we all just get along" but not sure how many people would get the reference 

[nolbertos]

11 hours ago, Ansem said:

Let's just shut down this thread right now. 

CPL will barely attract 4k average attendance and fold.

Why would Canadians watch it when MLS, is there? Pff...CPL...might as well put all our cards in USL because Canadians will just not care about a Canadian league. Canadians know that if nothing related to the US is involved it's a failure waiting to happen 

Finally something I can agree with you Ansem.  Canadian love watching high level leagues, not necessarily Canadian matchups.  Maybe in the prairies and maritimes people love Canadian vs. Canadian rivalries in non top flight leagues (eg CFL), but the 3 MLS markets are more into being in a top talent league with a few world cup stars here and there, which surprisingly is where the CFL market base is diminishing.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

53 minutes ago, Macksam said:

 

Canada from the 1970s isn't the same Canada today.

 

so key

also

can someone please tell this to alberta re: carbon pricing

[Gopherbashi]

11 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

Finally something I can agree with you Ansem.  Canadian love watching high level leagues, not necessarily Canadian matchups.  Maybe in the prairies and maritimes people love Canadian vs. Canadian rivalries in non top flight leagues (eg CFL), but the 3 MLS markets are more into being in a top talent league with a few world cup stars here and there, which surprisingly is where the CFL market base is diminishing.

I don't really know about that...

[Ansem]

24 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

Finally something I can agree with you Ansem.  Canadian love watching high level leagues, not necessarily Canadian matchups.  Maybe in the prairies and maritimes people love Canadian vs. Canadian rivalries in non top flight leagues (eg CFL), but the 3 MLS markets are more into being in a top talent league with a few world cup stars here and there, which surprisingly is where the CFL market base is diminishing.

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/eh-game/the-great-canadian-ratings-report--mls-not-scoring-on-television-132357891.html

hmm... 1.9M viewers for a Canada vs Canada game, then it drops to irrelevance for a Canada vs USA team...with EPL having over triple the viewership in Canada.

Canadians truly follow soccer as shown by samples of ratings including the EPL. Canadians actually look forward much more to Canadian cities facing each other than some US city they care little about (you can't project your interest for US cities to the rest of the population you know). Actually, the strongest NHL ratings are also when Canadian clubs face each other.

MLS might be a TOP league, but they can't even beat the CFL in TV ratings... nor draw decent viewership whenever you squeeze a US team in it. Is it that Canadian NEED a top league to follow or do they need a league they care about and which they can relate to?

Lol, with Arfield in EPL, there were weeks where EPL was starting more Canadians than MLS

But since you detest "facts" and "stats", we'll leave it at that so you soak it in for a sec.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Some of us are old enough to remember what happened the last time TSN had regular weekly broadcasts of a D1 sanctioned Canadian soccer league with lots of CMNT players in it and that was when there was no MLS or NASL around and it was the strongest outdoor league operating in North America and European clubs were not so open to signing Canadians as they are now. The idea that the Canadian angle is enough by itself to get people to show up or tune in is naive in the extreme. The key is whether the startup money is there in at least six cities to invest in the league properly for at least a decade as an entertainment product before there is any expectation of approaching break even. 

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Some of us are old enough to remember what happened the last time TSN had regular weekly broadcasts of a D1 sanctioned Canadian soccer league with lots of CMNT players in it and that was when there was no MLS or NASL around and it was the strongest outdoor league operating in North America and European clubs were not so open to signing Canadians as they are now. The idea that the Canadian angle is enough by itself to get people to show up or tune in is naive in the extreme. The key is whether the startup money is there in at least six cities to invest in the league properly for at least a decade as an entertainment product before there is any expectation of approaching break even. 

This is what most of us were thinking last year about CPL news and why it wouldn't be like the 70s-80s

Please join us in 2017. Thank you!