Alphonso Davies

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

1 hour ago, matty said:

There's a difference between selling players and being a feeder league and until MLS is spending Liga MX money it should accept players moving there

Definitely agree. Being a FC Edmonton fan, one of the proudest moments of the club was when the top prospect got generation adidas. I am talking about Shamit Shome. Most developmental leagues are proud of their development and ability to sell. If, in the future, the MLS starts spending the same amount of money as Liga MX then they can keep those players. 

The problem is that the MLS single entity doesn’t reward clubs enough for development and selling players. That and the lack of a Canadian quota is what is killing development in Canada. I am still  a fan of the MLS, but they just aren’t set up to be a selling league. Not until they fix their rules and restrictions. 

Hopefully the CPL will be able to establish a good system to sell players. That will be the most important factor for development. There is a difference between being a selling league and a feeder league like you said though. The CPL shouldn’t limit itself by being a feeder league. I think most people would be proud of the development and selling of players though.

[matty]

2 hours ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

Definitely agree. Being a FC Edmonton fan, one of the proudest moments of the club was when the top prospect got generation adidas. I am talking about Shamit Shome. Most developmental leagues are proud of their development and ability to sell. If, in the future, the MLS starts spending the same amount of money as Liga MX then they can keep those players. 

The problem is that the MLS single entity doesn’t reward clubs enough for development and selling players. That and the lack of a Canadian quota is what is killing development in Canada. I am still  a fan of the MLS, but they just aren’t set up to be a selling league. Not until they fix their rules and restrictions. 

Hopefully the CPL will be able to establish a good system to sell players. That will be the most important factor for development. There is a difference between being a selling league and a feeder league like you said though. The CPL shouldn’t limit itself by being a feeder league. I think most people would be proud of the development and selling of players though.

The CPL 100% needs to be designed to sell talent off including to MLS.

MLS is weird in that seems to have everything in place to be a league that sells talent and helps it develop early on yet it seems to either want everyone to give ages 22-30 to MLS soccer. Like I'm legit worried Larin is going to lose a 6-months to a year because Orlando and MLS won't let him go.

[BCM]

4 hours ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

 

The problem is that the MLS single entity doesn’t reward clubs enough for development and selling players. That and the lack of a Canadian quota is what is killing development in Canada.

Canadians are domestics in USL and NASL - yet in all honesty the numbers outside the Canadian teams is low. Quite abysmal in NASL (less Deltas). We have to move beyond the simple notion that if MLS treated us as domestics there would be a flood of Canadians into the league. It would be great, no doubt, but we need to address the fundamental issues and not look for the seemingly simple and easy 'solution' to the problem.

[matty]

11 minutes ago, BCM1555362349 said:

Canadians are domestics in USL and NASL - yet in all honesty the numbers outside the Canadian teams is low. Quite abysmal in NASL (less Deltas). We have to move beyond the simple notion that if MLS treated us as domestics there would be a flood of Canadians into the league. It would be great, no doubt, but we need to address the fundamental issues and not look for the seemingly simple and easy 'solution' to the problem.

I believe they were talking about a quota on the Canadian MLS teams, who do play a massive role in Canadian development, rather than league wide.

While there is legit no easy solution to the talent issues Canada face, a CanCon quota makes sense and, along with CPL, would likely help Canadian development.

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

10 hours ago, BCM1555362349 said:

Canadians are domestics in USL and NASL - yet in all honesty the numbers outside the Canadian teams is low. Quite abysmal in NASL (less Deltas). We have to move beyond the simple notion that if MLS treated us as domestics there would be a flood of Canadians into the league. It would be great, no doubt, but we need to address the fundamental issues and not look for the seemingly simple and easy 'solution' to the problem.

I meant the Canadian teams aren’t motivated to develop young Canadians as much as they would be if there was a Canadian quota on the MLS teams. I am also not saying there should be a quota on the MLS teams either. But, that fact that there isn’t a quota is lowering development of Canadian players.

personally I hope the MLS will be more of a finishing place for Canadians who were developed in the CPL. Once a player is a star in CPL, hopefully the MLS teams will buy them because they will be domestics. But obviously, they need to be good enough. The domestic part only narrows the competition, it doesn’t eliminate it.

[harrycoyster]

22 minutes ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

I meant the Canadian teams aren’t motivated to develop young Canadians as much as they would be if there was a Canadian quota on the MLS teams. I am also not saying there should be a quota on the MLS teams either. But, that fact that there isn’t a quota is lowering development of Canadian players.

That is at best wild speculation and at worst factually incorrect. My arguments against this has been stated many times on this forum, so I'll save the energy.

I agree on your second point though. A CPL->CMLS pipeline would be great for player development.

[matty]

8 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

That is at best wild speculation and at worst factually incorrect. My arguments against this has been stated many times on this forum, so I'll save the energy.

I agree on your second point though. A CPL->CMLS pipeline would be great for player development.

It's a very honest opinion based on the rest of the world at best. You argument against is based on a very certain version of such a quota.

Glad we all agree on the idea of CPL moving talent to MLS

[harrycoyster]

17 minutes ago, matty said:

It's a very honest opinion based on the rest of the world at best. You argument against is based on a very certain version of such a quota.

Glad we all agree on the idea of CPL moving talent to MLS

I have an issue with the argument that if we started more academy players in MLS we'd have more MLS level players. Soccer isn't a crapshoot. Coaches know what the ceiling of a player is given their traits. The Canadian MLS teams aren't in a situation where they have 5 MLS calibre players coming out of the academy a year but decide they like their veterans more. The talent just isn't there in those numbers, despite all three CMLS academies being top spending MLS clubs on youth academies. Alphonso Davies is the best player a CMLS academy has ever produced and he was somewhere between below average and outright bad for an MLS winger last season.

[matty]

6 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I have an issue with the argument that if we started more academy players in MLS we'd have more MLS level players. Soccer isn't a crapshoot. Coaches know what the ceiling of a player is given their traits. The Canadian MLS teams aren't in a situation where they have 5 MLS calibre players coming out of the academy a year but decide they like their veterans more. The talent just isn't there in those numbers, despite all three CMLS academies being top spending MLS clubs on youth academies. Alphonso Davies is the best player a CMLS academy has ever produced and he was somewhere between below average and outright bad for an MLS winger last season.

I get what you're saying but don't think a quata is a matter of simply throwing 2-5 18-20 year olds into games ever but rather allowing those who may be legit ready to get a chance rather than a random Panamanian or American and if there's no one in the pipe line that's quite there continuing with what you have rather than dumping it for foreign talent while you develop those closest to being ready.

[Complete Homer]

8 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I have an issue with the argument that if we started more academy players in MLS we'd have more MLS level players. Soccer isn't a crapshoot. Coaches know what the ceiling of a player is given their traits. The Canadian MLS teams aren't in a situation where they have 5 MLS calibre players coming out of the academy a year but decide they like their veterans more. The talent just isn't there in those numbers, despite all three CMLS academies being top spending MLS clubs on youth academies. Alphonso Davies is the best player a CMLS academy has ever produced and he was somewhere between below average and outright bad for an MLS winger last season.

There's also the fact that coaches, by the nature of the job, are forced into short term decisions constantly 

Bono is a good keeper. He was also complete trash at the outset and absolutely wouldn't have gotten extra looks if Irwin wasn't struggling. Sometimes you have to accept that the transition to the true pro game is a steep curve both physically and psychologically, and there isn't much motivation to do it unless coaches are forced to by circumstance or given assurance that their back isn't against the wall. Robinson, to his credit, used Davies despite this. 

One way to force opportunities is to have a quota. I think we'd see capable MLS level players like Edwards be picked over Morrow simply because cuts would have to be made somewhere and the loss of Morrow would be less than other internationals... but we'd also see a lot of borderline players tanking the team's quality.

I don't think it's really tenable at the moment. I don't think asking TFC to dismantle a championship roster for a Canadian quota is going to win anyone over to the cause. Maybe if CPL is stable a decade down the road and has created a reasonably deep player pool the issue can be revisited 

[lazlo_80]

22 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

There's also the fact that coaches, by the nature of the job, are forced into short term decisions constantly 

Bono is a good keeper. He was also complete trash at the outset and absolutely wouldn't have gotten extra looks if Irwin wasn't struggling. Sometimes you have to accept that the transition to the true pro game is a steep curve both physically and psychologically, and there isn't much motivation to do it unless coaches are forced to by circumstance or given assurance that their back isn't against the wall. Robinson, to his credit, used Davies despite this. 

One way to force opportunities is to have a quota. I think we'd see capable MLS level players like Edwards be picked over Morrow simply because cuts would have to be made somewhere and the loss of Morrow would be less than other internationals... but we'd also see a lot of borderline players tanking the team's quality.

I don't think it's really tenable at the moment. I don't think asking TFC to dismantle a championship roster for a Canadian quota is going to win anyone over to the cause. Maybe if CPL is stable a decade down the road and has created a reasonably deep player pool the issue can be revisited 

To this point I have a crazy personal theory that parity actually makes development harder and it's actually easier for the best teams in the league to play younger academy grads and such than the middle teams (which are roughyl 75% of the league)

When a team like montreal or vancouver is fighting to make the playoffs you force managers into a situation of playing a solid vet over a kid who might be better in the long run but not as dependable in the moment.

TFC for example, on the other hand can go into a game in the middle of the summer, on the road and throw a younger player or two into the game because they have such a strong and expensive core around them, and they're happy with a draw anyways.

it sort of flips everything on its head from the way you see it in most leagues.

This isn't something I'm willing to die on the sword for and I have zero stats to prove it, just a thought I've had for a while.

[Complete Homer]

26 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

To this point I have a crazy personal theory that parity actually makes development harder and it's actually easier for the best teams in the league to play younger academy grads and such than the middle teams (which are roughyl 75% of the league)

When a team like montreal or vancouver is fighting to make the playoffs you force managers into a situation of playing a solid vet over a kid who might be better in the long run but not as dependable in the moment.

I've had the same thoughts 

[jpg75]

24 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

To this point I have a crazy personal theory that parity actually makes development harder and it's actually easier for the best teams in the league to play younger academy grads and such than the middle teams (which are roughyl 75% of the league)

This is not a crazy theory, i believe this to be true as well and wrote a long post about it a few months ago. 

MLS clubs - unlike the rest of the world -have very little financial incentive to develop players to sell on. The incentive is to make the playoffs and increase revenues, and with parity all clubs tend to have a realistic shot for most of the season so they go for the 25+ vets who can help win now.

[harrycoyster]

Carl Robinson just said at the Caps offseason presser that there is "no truth" to the Davies training at Man Utd offer, and "don't beleive everything you read."

[matty]

38 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Carl Robinson just said at the Caps offseason presser that there is "no truth" to the Davies training at Man Utd offer, and "don't beleive everything you read."

Boo reality

[matty]

2 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

 

I don't think it's really tenable at the moment. I don't think asking TFC to dismantle a championship roster for a Canadian quota is going to win anyone over to the cause. Maybe if CPL is stable a decade down the road and has created a reasonably deep player pool the issue can be revisited 

I don't think you have to dismantle a team to start 2 Canadians

[jpg75]

41 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Carl Robinson just said at the Caps offseason presser that there is "no truth" to the Davies training at Man Utd offer, and "don't beleive everything you read."

Don't believe those tabloid broadcasters over at CTV Edmonton!

[Complete Homer]

47 minutes ago, matty said:

I don't think you have to dismantle a team to start 2 Canadians

I interpreted Canadian quota as replacing the current US/Canadian domestic quota with solely Canadians

[SpursFlu]

I heard the interview and I didn' take it that way. His phone was cutting out so I think he was addressing the misinterpretation that this means he is going to ManU permanently or there is a done deal. I might be wrong but I don' think he was denying he'll head over for a training spell. After a pretty weak end of the season im sure ManU or anyone would like to get a first hand look at him and see how he does in that environment 

[matty]

51 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I interpreted Canadian quota as replacing the current US/Canadian domestic quota with solely Canadians

I think most who favour a quota agree it's something that should be eased in over a decade. So like you have to have 2 canadians on the pitch at all times by 2020, 3 by 2025 and 4 by 2030

[BuzzAndSting]

On 12/10/2017 at 3:48 AM, Bertuzzi44 said:

Not everyone can make it though. Where is Doughty playing these days?

Lingard and Rashford and recent successes. 

Retired.

[dyslexic nam]

Just to chime in on the quota idea.  I don't think anyone believes it will immediately lead to opportunities, and I don't think it should be structured that way.  What many advocate is a gradual implementation of a well known quota requirement that could be done without threatening on-field quality.  By making the implementation plan and timelines clear, it would force clubs to invest in development of domestic talent, whereas now it is so secondary that some MLS clubs can gut their development pathways without any real consequences.  In the context of a US league that gets to set the rules for Canadian teams, and a situation where those teams that haven't been demonstrably producing Canadian talent, I don't think it is unreasonable.  

[harrycoyster]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

By making the implementation plan and timelines clear, it would force clubs to invest in development of domestic talent, whereas now it is so secondary that some MLS clubs can gut their development pathways without any real consequences.

The only CMLS team that you can accuse of not investing in development of domestic talent is Montreal. Vancouver and TFC both top teams in development spending, both lost/losing $3-5 million a season in USL and around $4 million in academy spending. The Caps claim they spend more on their academy then any team in the league. The highest team with a published number is Philly Union at $4 million a season.

[Kadenge]

Named Canadian u17 player of the year

https://www.canadasoccer.com/davies-huitema-named-canadian-u-17-players-of-the-year-for-canada-soccer-p161311-preview-1

[SpursFlu]

1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

The only CMLS team that you can accuse of not investing in development of domestic talent is Montreal. Vancouver and TFC both top teams in development spending, both lost/losing $3-5 million a season in USL and around $4 million in academy spending. The Caps claim they spend more on their academy then any team in the league. The highest team with a published number is Philly Union at $4 million a season.

Probably true based on travel