Alphonso Davies

[TRM]

On 2016-06-02 at 3:18 PM, lazlo_80 said:

he didn't look out of place. nor did he effect the game. Personally I really couldn't take away much from his performance.

Will be interesting to see who Robbo puts out there in the second game. Will say alot about how seriously he's taking the tournament this year.

Also, this probably isn't the thread for it...but man, can at least one of these whitecaps kids we keep hearing are "knocking on the first team door" put in a performance that earns them more time with the first team? Every time they get an opportunity they seem to fall on their face.

I agree with the first part but not the second.

Adekugbe has hardly fallen flat. Sam has looked every bit the heir apparent to Harvey at LB. So good that he got 8 starts in a row before getting injured last year. Just being competitive with a seasoned MLS level LB like Harvey at his young age is a great sign.

Russell has also not fallen flat. He seldom has what I would call a bad game. So seldom I have trouble remembering when it last was.

Kianz has had his ups and downs. Shows flashes of brilliance dribbling but also makes too many bad passes and turnovers. Hardly fallen flat though.

Some of the others? Well yea, so far some have face planted. It is a numbers game. You need a lot of kids going through to get those few special ones who can make the first team.

[lazlo_80]

1 hour ago, TRM said:

I agree with the first part but not the second.

Adekugbe has hardly fallen flat. Sam has looked every bit the heir apparent to Harvey at LB. So good that he got 8 starts in a row before getting injured last year. Just being competitive with a seasoned MLS level LB like Harvey at his young age is a great sign.

Russell has also not fallen flat. He seldom has what I would call a bad game. So seldom I have trouble remembering when it last was.

Kianz has had his ups and downs. Shows flashes of brilliance dribbling but also makes too many bad passes and turnovers. Hardly fallen flat though.

Some of the others? Well yea, so far some have face planted. It is a numbers game. You need a lot of kids going through to get those few special ones who can make the first team.

 

Okay, I know I'm completely side tracking this thread, so I apologize in advance to the people who thought there was new news about Alphonso...But...

Lets not include Teibert with the kids as he's turning 24 this year. I wouldn't consider him one of the kids as he's been with the main team for a while now. He is what he is at this point.

I would've agreed with you about Adekugbe last year, but this year so far I believe he's had 2 starts. the one against DC where they lost 4-0 and this one where they lost 2-0 to an NASL team. He hasn't had a great rebound year so far.

Kianz is exactly what you say, he's fine but hasn't shown anything to make you think he's won a starting spot. 

I don't know what's going on with Bustos but he is having a rough season. He might need to bulk up or something. or maybe he just needs to get used to the speed of MLS play. It'll come, I just hoped it would come faster.

This was McKendry's only start. I can't say I really noticed him out there.

Don't take this as me hating against these kids, I'm really, really rooting for them but they need to do something to prove they should be with the big team.

I'm not saying it's over for them at all. Look at Jordan Hamilton, alot of people gave up on that kid cause he didn't explode onto Toronto FC immediately, but on Wednesday he had a performance that probably helped give him first team consideration.

Fringe players don't get the benefit of the doubt so they need to do something to get noticed right away. Tissot got starting opportunities this year and I could be wrong, but scored a goal in his first or second start. Babouli got an assist in his first start for Toronto FC. Bekker has a new lease on life after going down to FC Montreal for a while. It would be nice if one of these whitecaps kids put in a performance like some of these guys so they could get on the field with more consistency with the first team. They aren't making the most of their opportunities.

 

[TRM]

Bustos needs to be faster without the ball. I never realized it watching WC2. I don't know but he has trouble catching up to players who are dribbling the ball. I've never been a fan of trying to turn soccer players into track athletes but I'll make the exception in his case. 

I know you're pulling for them. We all are. I was thrilled that Hamilton got a pair against an MLS side. Sweet.

Now back to Alphonso Davies. One thing I liked was during the game he started to hunt down the player with the ball. The Ottawa player went diagonal over to the other side and you could see Alphonso make sure the next person picked him up and then he stopped and held his position. Positional awareness and not getting dragged out of position in a 15 year old is impressive.

[lazlo_80]

Agreed...not to mention he is seriously built for a 15 year old. Kid could be a beast when he's done growing.

[A_Gagne]

3 hours ago, lazlo_80 said:

Agreed...not to mention he is seriously built for a 15 year old. Kid could be a beast when he's done growing.

TBH I somewhat question if he's actually 15. He was born in Sierra Leone and I often take the accuracy of birth certificates from such countries with a grain of salt.

Also adolescents develop at different rates, so even if he is 15, his "developmental age" (or "bone age") is more important than his actual age.

I.e. if you take an x-ray of his bones and his growth plates have fused, he's done growing, regardless of what his age is on paper.

[Ruffian]

This "African kids are lying about their age" is getting old. Unless there is some evidence that he is lying, then I believe the reported age. There are as many American little league baseball players lying about their age but you don't question every Americans' ages. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, Ruffian said:

This "African kids are lying about their age" is getting old. Unless there is some evidence that he is lying, then I believe the reported age. There are as many American little league baseball players lying about their age but you don't question every Americans' ages. 

Thanks, I am a bit sick of this argument as well. It is totally racist and people just throw it out gratutiously (and the fuckin nerve of A_Gagne to throw out the bone structure argument, that is outrageous).

It is anti-football, on top of it all, since it is proven that size does not lead to success in football. I think the Spain team that won the WC was the second shortest in the entire competition, to give an example. I see this at Barça year after year, an amazing centre back who happens to be about 175 cm.  

The real question, in any case, is when the rest catch up physically, will Alphonso still be standing out or competing correctly. Lots of big kids at age 12 of all background dominate a lot of sports, and then the rest catch up physically, in technique, in hard work, in motivation, and they fall by the wayside. In any case, Alphonse is not a "big" kid, he is not overly tall, for example.

As I see it, Alphonso has technique, football IQ, is humble, works hard. His physical precocity, if those things get worked on more, should not be a problem.

[C2SKI]

41 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Thanks, I am a bit sick of this argument as well. It is totally racist and people just throw it out gratutiously (and the fuckin nerve of A_Gagne to throw out the bone structure argument, that is outrageous).

It is anti-football, on top of it all, since it is proven that size does not lead to success in football. I think the Spain team that won the WC was the second shortest in the entire competition, to give an example. I see this at Barça year after year, an amazing centre back who happens to be about 175 cm.  

The real question, in any case, is when the rest catch up physically, will Alphonso still be standing out or competing correctly. Lots of big kids at age 12 of all background dominate a lot of sports, and then the rest catch up physically, in technique, in hard work, in motivation, and they fall by the wayside. In any case, Alphonse is not a "big" kid, he is not overly tall, for example.

As I see it, Alphonso has technique, football IQ, is humble, works hard. His physical precocity, if those things get worked on more, should not be a problem.

He's already shown that he can compete against players that match him physically. He hasn't been playing other kids this season, he's been competing against grown men and has matched up well. He consistently beats players for pace, and rarely gets muscled off the ball. As he matures physically, I hope his strength and explosiveness continue to improve, but I think he's proven that it's not simply his physical maturity that has gotten him to this point.

If you feel the need to question his age, then watch the youtube compilation of him from a couple years ago. He's very much a child, and he's very clearly talented.

[BCM]

11 hours ago, A_Gagne said:

TBH I somewhat question if he's actually 15. He was born in Sierra Leone and I often take the accuracy of birth certificates from such countries with a grain of salt.

Also adolescents develop at different rates, so even if he is 15, his "developmental age" (or "bone age") is more important than his actual age.

I.e. if you take an x-ray of his bones and his growth plates have fused, he's done growing, regardless of what his age is on paper.

Of course we all know that numerous African countries have had issues with player ages - Nigeria being the best example. But that age faking is done after the player is identified as talented, and often by the player in the hopes of playing for a youth side and/or moving overseas. These cases are sometimes aggregious, with men age 23-25 playing for U-17 teams.

And yes, birth certificates from Sierra Leone (or Liberia, where Davies was born) are probably dodgy and can be bought or changed for next to nothing (they still can be in China, would you believe - why - parents want their kids to appear older and get them into school earlier). So maybe Davies birthday isn't exactly on the date of his passport (no evidence of this, of course), but even if this is true it wouldn't be off by years (as is the case of intentional footballing faking) - so I don't get your issue or concern here. @C2SKIraises a valid point, look at video from the not too distant past. He's a kid.

I'll believe he's 15. If he's really 16, or 17 or even 14, that doesn't change his status as a great prospect for the future.

[TRM]

I don't think it is racist. I also don't think it is relevant. In third world and even some second world places, birthdays are sort of vague. I have a friend who was a "harvest baby" who's sister was a "summer baby". The exact date is not as big a deal in a lot of cultures. The fact that you survive is. Infant mortality is appallingly high in some places.

Is the USA it is not uncommon for parents to start their kids in school a year later so that they will be bigger and better able to play sports. In fact I think 60 Minutes did a story on it long ago.

Regardless of how old a player really is at 15 or 16 they have a long way to go. In about 4 years we'll see. If he can handle the physical play at 15-16 from grown men he won't lose that ability over the next 4 years. Can he learn and develop the rest of his game is the question? What you've done in the junior levels to get noticed by a pro club doesn't really matter. At the pro level it is "what have you done for us lately?" because nobody is going to cut you any slack.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, TRM said:

I don't think it is racist. I also don't think it is relevant. In third world and even some second world places, birthdays are sort of vague. I have a friend who was a "harvest baby" who's sister was a "summer baby". The exact date is not as big a deal in a lot of cultures. The fact that you survive is. Infant mortality is appallingly high in some places.

Is the USA it is not uncommon for parents to start their kids in school a year later so that they will be bigger and better able to play sports. In fact I think 60 Minutes did a story on it long ago.

Regardless of how old a player really is at 15 or 16 they have a long way to go. In about 4 years we'll see. If he can handle the physical play at 15-16 from grown men he won't lose that ability over the next 4 years. Can he learn and develop the rest of his game is the question? What you've done in the junior levels to get noticed by a pro club doesn't really matter. At the pro level it is "what have you done for us lately?" because nobody is going to cut you any slack.

 

I had a girlfriend in Sevilla who was from a rather posh family who had her birthdate fudged for other reasons: the power of the Catholic church. At one point in time it was the priest who named children, if you were born on this or that saint's day, that was the name you got. Since her parents wanted to name her something different, they "hid" her from the priest then revealed her as born on a specific and appropriate date--hence her name. This happened to allow her to be born the next year (going over into January).

I have been watching the great Promises tournament, which pits the u-12 teams of all clubs in Spanish first division. This is where you see major exceptions in size: there is wonderful player for the eventual winner Villareal, Paco, who came from Ethiopia four years ago. He's  tall, fast, strong---thing is, his talent on the ball and tactical knowledge is like a pro (like a lot of these kids, they are on average amazing). And yes, there are a few Spanish kids as tall. Thankfully not once have we had to hear the announcers say a word about this garbage African birthdates argument. I suppose you can guess which one he is.

 

[Vince193]

8 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I had a girlfriend in Sevilla who was from a rather posh family who had her birthdate fudged for other reasons: the power of the Catholic church. At one point in time it was the priest who named children, if you were born on this or that saint's day, that was the name you got. Since her parents wanted to name her something different, they "hid" her from the priest then revealed her as born on a specific and appropriate date--hence her name. This happened to allow her to be born the next year (going over into January).

I have been watching the great Promises tournament, which pits the u-12 teams of all clubs in Spanish first division. This is where you see major exceptions in size: there is wonderful player for the eventual winner Villareal, Paco, who came from Ethiopia four years ago. He's  tall, fast, strong---thing is, his talent on the ball and tactical knowledge is like a pro (like a lot of these kids, they are on average amazing). And yes, there are a few Spanish kids as tall. Thankfully not once have we had to hear the announcers say a word about this garbage African birthdates argument. I suppose you can guess which one he is.

 

That sounds really stupid. And I'm Catholic.

[BCM]

13 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I have been watching the great Promises tournament, which pits the u-12 teams of all clubs in Spanish first division. This is where you see major exceptions in size: there is wonderful player for the eventual winner Villareal, Paco, who came from Ethiopia four years ago. He's  tall, fast, strong---thing is, his talent on the ball and tactical knowledge is like a pro (like a lot of these kids, they are on average amazing). And yes, there are a few Spanish kids as tall. Thankfully not once have we had to hear the announcers say a word about this garbage African birthdates argument. I suppose you can guess which one he is.

 

Sounds dodgy. I bet Paco isn't even his real name. I'd call for a bone scan if I were you. 

Of more concern are the blokes on the  left and right. Very big for their age and they're not even wearing the same team colour. 

[ditty]

13 hours ago, TRM said:

I don't think it is racist. I also don't think it is relevant. In third world and even some second world places, birthdays are sort of vague. I have a friend who was a "harvest baby" who's sister was a "summer baby". The exact date is not as big a deal in a lot of cultures. The fact that you survive is. Infant mortality is appallingly high in some places.

Is the USA it is not uncommon for parents to start their kids in school a year later so that they will be bigger and better able to play sports. In fact I think 60 Minutes did a story on it long ago.

Regardless of how old a player really is at 15 or 16 they have a long way to go. In about 4 years we'll see. If he can handle the physical play at 15-16 from grown men he won't lose that ability over the next 4 years. Can he learn and develop the rest of his game is the question? What you've done in the junior levels to get noticed by a pro club doesn't really matter. At the pro level it is "what have you done for us lately?" because nobody is going to cut you any slack.

 

In my time coaching U-12 boys here, I've had a few kids who were off the charts athletically. Both born and raised, white Canadian boys and boys born abroad. Birthdate fudging is definitely an issue in youth soccer in Africa but I've seen the damage it's done to kids here when they hear the subtle and not-so-subtle whispers about their "true" ages. So, unless anyone brings up any evidence to the contrary, I think it's important to assume a player's age is correct.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 5/6/2016 at 6:35 PM, Vince193 said:

That sounds really stupid. And I'm Catholic.

That was standard in Franco's Spain and for well-off, traditional Catholic families into the 80s, as they would have their own priest.

She was born in the family home of course, the doctors came to them. The upper crust in Andalucia, when I met it face on, was like the well-off in Georgian England, it was like 80 years behind (going on my vast knowledge from watching Upstairs-Downstairs).

[A_Gagne]

On 6/5/2016 at 9:14 AM, Unnamed Trialist said:

Thanks, I am a bit sick of this argument as well. It is totally racist and people just throw it out gratutiously (and the fuckin nerve of A_Gagne to throw out the bone structure argument, that is outrageous).

It is anti-football, on top of it all, since it is proven that size does not lead to success in football. I think the Spain team that won the WC was the second shortest in the entire competition, to give an example. I see this at Barça year after year, an amazing centre back who happens to be about 175 cm.  

The real question, in any case, is when the rest catch up physically, will Alphonso still be standing out or competing correctly. Lots of big kids at age 12 of all background dominate a lot of sports, and then the rest catch up physically, in technique, in hard work, in motivation, and they fall by the wayside. In any case, Alphonse is not a "big" kid, he is not overly tall, for example.

As I see it, Alphonso has technique, football IQ, is humble, works hard. His physical precocity, if those things get worked on more, should not be a problem.

Chill!

I lived in Uganda for half a year, and a lot of kids I knew there weren't entirely sure what their true age/birth date was. This was common place and didn't seem to matter all that much to anyone. Usually they'd get a birth certificate forged so they could attend school. I can certainly imagine the same being true in Sierra Leone.

I think you missed my point about bone age. It had nothing to do with physicality vs. technique/soccer IQ. It was simply in direct response to lazlo_80's comment: "he could be a beast when he's done growing".

My point was he could already be done growing. I don't recall commenting on whether or not this would affect his progress as a soccer player?

[TRM]

Well after watching him play for almost a full game against a decent quality NASL team I can say he has a lot to offer. Running with and without the ball is good, defensive work rate good, shooting good. Passing? Yeesh he missed a lot of the simple ones. I'm betting he hasn't played on that turf much because a lot of his short passes were turnovers.

Definitely more plus than minus and as always lots to work on. Great to see him get a start at this level. Here's hoping we'll see more of him in MLS.

[Keegan]

Hit the post, created two good chances and didn't look out of place.  Crazy that he's 15, I was a little skeptical but he showed he belonged out there.  

[lazlo_80]

alot better performance today. Wishing him all the best.

[C2SKI]

Certainly an exciting player. I hope he works hard, and pushes on to the next level.

[yomurphy1]

THE CANADIAN RONALDO!

[Floortom]

He played well for a player of any age / experience. The fact that he did it as a 15 year old against probably the toughest competition of his life is remarkable!

[jrue17]

What position did he play?

[TRM]

6 minutes ago, jrue17 said:

What position did he play?

Left mid in front of Harvey. Smart move to have a vet to back him up and instruct him.

[Yohan]

I thought Davies has a lot of raw potential. He certainly has moves. Kid was willing to take on Fury defender 1v1. Took a lot of knocks. Made a lot of mistakes too, but he is only 15 playing against men. Should be interesting how Caps manage Davies's development.