Garber hints at change to 'Canadians as internationals' rule.

[-Hammer-]

20 minutes ago, shermanator said:

I love how Montagliani is subtly threatening the nuclear option: pulling sanctioning of Canadian MLS clubs if the double standard continue. I don't think that it will ever happen, but good to see it brought up.

The problem with any threat, is you need to seem that you could credibly use it. Will Vic? No way, unless a pro league has already come about and stabilized. You can't say "Stop playing in a foreign league, you have to play in the non-existent domestic league". The other issue is, what is the "Or else" in this situation? Realistically only three things happen, if the teams ignore the CSA should they act on this threat.

The first is the MLS teams are out of the V-Cup. I think TFC and Vancouver doesn't care anyways, but the Impact and the Saputo's (who has seen far better attendances for the V-Cup and Champion's League play then MLS play) getting unsanctioned and kicked out of the V-Cup might not sit as well with them. It's only a few games, which while nice to have and lead into actual international play, isn't worth it compared to the MLS meal ticket. Heck the currently joke requirement is pretty much just lip service to keep these games.

The second is players who play for MLS could be disqualified from playing on the national team selection. The MLS teams couldn't care less about that and while it would suck for the players, I doubt most Canadians in MLS are about to give up a job for a couple of national team games. It's also going to cripple one of the CSA's money making tools.

The third is they petition FIFA and CONCAAF for their involvement and sanctioning the USSF if they don't go along with them. This is a roll of the dice. FIFA's governing structure is corrupt and convoluted. They might come down on the USSF hard with fines and berth losses if they don't comply, they might decertify MLS from Champions league play. Both could be motivated by the recent US fraud blitz on FIFA. However, far more likely they do nothing, either because of the US's position in CONCAAF and the USSF being tied at the hip to MLS or it being lost in FIFA's bureaucracy.

[Gopherbashi]

If the issue is that treating Canadians as domestics in America discriminates against non-Canadians, why is the reverse not an issue north of the border as well?

Is treating Americans as domestics in Canada not also discrimination against non-Americans up here?

Genuinely curious because I haven't explored this issue all that in-depth.

[pint]

33 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

The problem with any threat, is you need to seem that you could credibly use it. Will Vic? No way, unless a pro league has already come about and stabilized. You can't say "Stop playing in a foreign league, you have to play in the non-existent domestic league". The other issue is, what is the "Or else" in this situation? Realistically only three things happen, if the teams ignore the CSA should they act on this threat.

The first is the MLS teams are out of the V-Cup. I think TFC and Vancouver doesn't care anyways, but the Impact and the Saputo's (who has seen far better attendances for the V-Cup and Champion's League play then MLS play) getting unsanctioned and kicked out of the V-Cup might not sit as well with them. It's only a few games, which while nice to have and lead into actual international play, isn't worth it compared to the MLS meal ticket. Heck the currently joke requirement is pretty much just lip service to keep these games.

The second is players who play for MLS could be disqualified from playing on the national team selection. The MLS teams couldn't care less about that and while it would suck for the players, I doubt most Canadians in MLS are about to give up a job for a couple of national team games. It's also going to cripple one of the CSA's money making tools.

The third is they petition FIFA and CONCAAF for their involvement and sanctioning the USSF if they don't go along with them. This is a roll of the dice. FIFA's governing structure is corrupt and convoluted. They might come down on the USSF hard with fines and berth losses if they don't comply, they might decertify MLS from Champions league play. Both could be motivated by the recent US fraud blitz on FIFA. However, far more likely they do nothing, either because of the US's position in CONCAAF and the USSF being tied at the hip to MLS or it being lost in FIFA's bureaucracy.

TFC absolutely cares about V-cup and Champions league and the caring for those competitions starts at the very top of the organization (Manning). 

[Ansem]

17 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

If the issue is that treating Canadians as domestics in America discriminates against non-Canadians, why is the reverse not an issue north of the border as well?

Is treating Americans as domestics in Canada not also discrimination against non-Americans up here?

Genuinely curious because I haven't explored this issue all that in-depth.

It`s clearly a double standard. Also, they don`t want to expose themselves to potential lawsuits. Finally, I think the heart of the matter is that the USSF is satisfied that the USA are part of the top 3 in CONCACAF. They don`t need to help Canada challenge this status quo making it harder for them to reach the Hex or the world Cup. If Canada reach that level by their own means, good, but no way will the USSF allow that to happen because of them

[ray]

18 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

If the issue is that treating Canadians as domestics in America discriminates against non-Canadians, why is the reverse not an issue north of the border as well?

Is treating Americans as domestics in Canada not also discrimination against non-Americans up here?

Genuinely curious because I haven't explored this issue all that in-depth.

Relating to this, could the CSA force the Canadian MLS clubs to treat Americans as non-domestic?  Granted there would not be huge numbers of Americans affected but could it be used to turn up the pressure on MLS.  Everyone knows the CSA would not realistically go as far as withdrawing sanctioning for the Canadian clubs.  So this might be a more credible threat that could cause MLS to react due to the optics of seeing Americans treated as foreigners in their own league.

[-Hammer-]

36 minutes ago, pint said:

TFC absolutely cares about V-cup and Champions league and the caring for those competitions starts at the very top of the organization (Manning). 

I think they care enough about it to show it lip service currently.

However, if it came down to playing in MLS and getting the MLS TV-Revenue Cut and screwing the 4 V-Cup games with a chance of CONCAAF Champion's league games, or beign told by the CSA "You have to play in a startup CPL league instead of MLS, with a much lower TV contract to get those V-Cup games. I think every day of the week, MLSE picks sticking with MLS, barring the CPL getting a absurdly lucrative TV deal.

[-Hammer-]

1 hour ago, Gopherbashi said:

If the issue is that treating Canadians as domestics in America discriminates against non-Canadians, why is the reverse not an issue north of the border as well?

Is treating Americans as domestics in Canada not also discrimination against non-Americans up here?

Genuinely curious because I haven't explored this issue all that in-depth.

Well, likely because our Labour laws aren't as draconian as the US. I don't believe we have a requirement that a foreign worker "Must be able to do the job no US citizen can reasonably do". There also isn't an explicit US Quota, it's a Canadian or US quota and a Canadian quota up here. It means you can certainly argue "Hey, this US player is superior to any other Canadian player"

I suppose you could make the same change in the US and treat Canadian players like domestics, but MLS seems to feel that "Oh no, it's just too hard to convince the government here that Canadians can play better then Americans." which might have some truth to it on paper, but is unlikely to come up in real life (as it doesn't come up in any other sports league). The real reason, more likely is the USSF has a mandate to develop US players, not Canadian players, and it countermands it's own mandate treating Canadians as equals to Americans.

The bottom line here, it's pretty clear that MLS could be pushing the Canadian development envelope a bit further, but opt not to as they'd rather their political capital be spent elsewhere.

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

24 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

Well, likely because our Labour laws aren't as draconian as the US.

What about the Charter of Rights and Freedoms here in Canada? Seems like the whole idea of foreigners facing greater restrictions is up for debate in other areas of society.

http://vancouversun.com/news/national/b-c-property-law-vulnerable-to-challenge-says-constitutional-law-expert

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/why-bcs-real-estate-tax-on-foreign-nationals-is-unlawful/article31235014/

[-Hammer-]

13 minutes ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

What about the Charter of Rights and Freedoms here in Canada? Seems like the whole idea of foreigners facing greater restrictions is up for debate in other areas of society.

http://vancouversun.com/news/national/b-c-property-law-vulnerable-to-challenge-says-constitutional-law-expert

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/why-bcs-real-estate-tax-on-foreign-nationals-is-unlawful/article31235014/

Hard to say, it's getting into the more nuanced details of the law. There really isn't a lot of precedent for this sort of thing because typically governments prefer to let sports league's police themselves because actively interfering with a local sports team or causing a relocation threat can often lead to an electoral defeat.

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

Just now, -Hammer- said:

Hard to say, it's getting into the more nuanced details of the law. There really isn't a lot of precedent for this sort of thing because typically governments prefer to let sports league's police themselves because actively interfering with a local sports team or causing a relocation threat can often lead to an electoral defeat.

All you need is a disgruntled player or official and a zealous lawyer. Kinda what MLS is afraid of in the US.

[Cheeta]

If you're not Canadian you're a foreign worker.   If your business' hiring practices discriminates against a foreign workers based on their nationality it's discrimination.  If not by the letter of the law than certainly the spirit. 

Otherwise, Mexicans need not apply.  Correct?

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

15 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

If you're not Canadian you're a foreign worker.   If your business' hiring practices discriminates against a foreign workers based on their nationality it's discrimination.  If not by the letter of the law than certainly the spirit. 

Otherwise, Mexicans need not apply.  Correct?

So could a fan (a Voyageur crowdfunding? ) have a decent shot of taking MLS to court and winning a charter challenge?

[Gian-Luca]

2 hours ago, ray said:

Relating to this, could the CSA force the Canadian MLS clubs to treat Americans as non-domestic? 

Not sure, but I am sure that they could force Canadian teams to have more than 3 players on its roster as Canadian, which is the current rule. An increase in that number would "eat up" the number of domestic spots available and thus less American players that way.

It is interesting to finally hear the nature of what the roster improvements for Canadian domestic players are going to be. It is somewhat astonishing though that we hear about it from a UK paper with the best written article I've seen on the subject. Why aren't our own media outlets publishing more articles or features like that? And by that, I don't mean Rudi or squizz and so forth but the more "mainstream" media outlets (newspapers, cbc, etc.). In the wake of Canada's early elimination from yet another World Cup, despite the popularity of the sport here now, you'd think that the UK media was more concerned about Canada's plight than the mainstream Canadian media is.

[Gian-Luca]

3 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

The problem with any threat, is you need to seem that you could credibly use it. Will Vic? No way, unless a pro league has already come about and stabilized. You can't say "Stop playing in a foreign league, you have to play in the non-existent domestic league".

I don''t think there is any chance that they could carry out this threat - what's more, it seems strange to punish the three Canadian teams when the issue is what the rest of the MLS teams are (or are not) doing. Unless Vic truly believes that the Whitecaps hate Canada of course.

 

[Yohan]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

It`s clearly a double standard. Also, they don`t want to expose themselves to potential lawsuits. Finally, I think the heart of the matter is that the USSF is satisfied that the USA are part of the top 3 in CONCACAF. They don`t need to help Canada challenge this status quo making it harder for them to reach the Hex or the world Cup. If Canada reach that level by their own means, good, but no way will the USSF allow that to happen because of them

I think US wants a stronger CONCACAF to provide better competition for USMNT. Getting to WC is not an issue for them. Getting far in WC is next step for US and a weak CONCACAF doesn't prepare them.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The potential way around it from what I have read elsewhere is to make players that have been through the academy systems domestics throughout the league as that doesn't discriminate on the basis of nationality.

[shermanator]

My take on this is the following (which is basically a copy/paste from a post I made on Reddit this morning).

For anyone who wants to see the extent of making Canadians domestic would have, just look at USL this year. There are 19 Canadians on US teams, and many of them are thriving in their first pro season (Laryea, Irving, Didic, Kamdem and Samuel are good examples). Had those players been considered international, they may not have gotten the opportunity.

Compare this with MLS, where there are only 4 Canadians on American clubs. 2 of which are actually playing, and one of two 2 who are playing benefits from being a dual citizen.

Yes, the quality of play in USL is lower, but if you even out the playing field then those Canadians who are truly talented enough to play in MLS (which is the argument we hear so much about why Canadians are not playing in MLS) can do so. I think there are probably 6 or 7 Canadian players playing in USL right now who could probably make the case that they are worth an MLS contract.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The potential way around it from what I have read elsewhere is to make players that have been through the academy systems domestics throughout the league as that doesn't discriminate on the basis of nationality.

This idea needs to spread like wild-fire.

[Chet]

6 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

The problem with any threat, is you need to seem that you could credibly use it. Will Vic? No way, unless a pro league has already come about and stabilized. You can't say "Stop playing in a foreign league, you have to play in the non-existent domestic league". The other issue is, what is the "Or else" in this situation? Realistically only three things happen, if the teams ignore the CSA should they act on this threat. ...

I think you're understating the effect that withdrawing sanctioning would have. The CSA, if it chooses, has the authority to ban MLS and its teams from operating in Canada. The FIFA Statutes are very clear on this:

72-2: Member associations and their clubs may not play on the territory of another
member association without the latter’s approval.

73: Associations, leagues or clubs that are affiliated to a member association may
only join another member association or take part in competitions on that
member association’s territory under exceptional circumstances. In each case,
authorisation must be given by both member associations, the respective
confederation(s) and by FIFA.

As an affiliate member of USSF, these statutes would apply to MLS.

[Yohan]

1 minute ago, Chet said:

I think you're understating the effect that withdrawing sanctioning would have. The CSA, if it chooses, has the authority to ban MLS and its teams from operating in Canada. The FIFA Statutes are very clear on this:

72-2: Member associations and their clubs may not play on the territory of another
member association without the latter’s approval.

73: Associations, leagues or clubs that are affiliated to a member association may
only join another member association or take part in competitions on that
member association’s territory under exceptional circumstances. In each case,
authorisation must be given by both member associations, the respective
confederation(s) and by FIFA.

As an affiliate member of USSF, these statutes would apply to MLS.

Since MLS operates on a franchise level, it would just relocate the 3 Canadian teams to US (and buyout the current owners if they don't want to operate a team in US)

This is like the last option thing and there is no way Victor M/CSA wants to start a shitstorm with MLS/USSF that'd cause helluva a lot of problems.

[Michael Crampton]

I love how most solutions for "fixing" Canadian soccer involve destroying the parts that are actually working, instead of the ones that aren't.

[Gian-Luca]

13 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

This idea needs to spread like wild-fire.

I think this is the very idea that Montalgiani alludes to in the article.

While the article is excellent, the trick that it misses is the one where the CSA is shooting itself in the foot in terms of this whole argument about needing more Canadian MLS players in order to make the World Cup - which is that it is all very well for the CSA (through its President)  to complain about the lack of Canadians on MLS teams hurting our chances of qualifying but if they wilfully do not bother to call most of the players we do have on MLS teams to WCQ matches, what is the point of insisting on teams having more of them - so that even more Canadian MLS players can be ignored for national team duty?

I mentioned this before but we called up three fewer MLS players to this past round than Jamaica did and the same number that T&T did - this is not because we had fewer MLS players that we could have called, this is because we just didn't bother to call them.

[shermanator]

49 minutes ago, Michael Crampton said:

I love how most solutions for "fixing" Canadian soccer involve destroying the parts that are actually working, instead of the ones that aren't.

This implies that the existing situation is working. I would argue the results of the last 20 years show that the existing situation is not working.

That said, I agree that there are other issues that need to be addressed as well. Specifically player and coach development at the grass roots level.

[Yohan]

1 hour ago, shermanator said:

This implies that the existing situation is working. I would argue the results of the last 20 years show that the existing situation is not working.

That said, I agree that there are other issues that need to be addressed as well. Specifically player and coach development at the grass roots level.

I think there was way too high of an expectation for MLS to solve a lot of Canadian player pool issue from the beginning. Like you said, there are other issues.

MLS is not THE solution but it is a solution. There are a lot of things that needs to be fixed even before pointing at MLS as chief culprit of why Canadian MNT sucks

[-Hammer-]

2 hours ago, Chet said:

I think you're understating the effect that withdrawing sanctioning would have. The CSA, if it chooses, has the authority to ban MLS and its teams from operating in Canada. The FIFA Statutes are very clear on this:

72-2: Member associations and their clubs may not play on the territory of another
member association without the latter’s approval.

73: Associations, leagues or clubs that are affiliated to a member association may
only join another member association or take part in competitions on that
member association’s territory under exceptional circumstances. In each case,
authorisation must be given by both member associations, the respective
confederation(s) and by FIFA.

As an affiliate member of USSF, these statutes would apply to MLS.

If that is the official FIFA stature, and the USSF would then also suffer for daring to try and keep the Canadian MLS teams around and skirt the CSA, and FIFA actually enforces that stature and not stepping in themselves saying "Oh well these are exceptional circumstances" then you are right, I am vastly understating the threat. I wasn't aware the CSA had the authority to say "Nope, you can't play down south at all, lest you be CSL exiled by FIFA"

Regardless though, we still get back to the point of it being an empty threat. If Vic dropped that bomb without a place for MLS teams to go, he will effectively salt the earth in his three largest markets for soccer, because I don't see those clubs sticking around. I see them getting sold and rellocated to US markets and voids left in their place which will leave fans livid and MLS spinning blame into the CSA's lap. The threat of removal from MLS is hollow unless you have a comparable league of your own.