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Garber hints at change to 'Canadians as internationals' rule.


Dub Narcotic

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I know you are joking (please be joking) but a cheese sandwich? Ouch. You guys go up on the nasty side of the bed. Come on and be nice to the guy. For all the crap luck he's had with his health it's amazing he is still playing soccer and wanting to have a go at it. He's 20, still a GenA so no cap hit.

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I know you are joking (please be joking) but a cheese sandwich? Ouch. You guys go up on the nasty side of the bed. Come on and be nice to the guy. For all the crap luck he's had with his health it's amazing he is still playing soccer and wanting to have a go at it. He's 20, still a GenA so no cap hit.

I feel bad for his injury problems but he always stuck me as the kind of player who developed physically past his peers and did well because of it, playing against men he wouldn't and doesn't have that advantage. Also, the caps went off the board to draft this guy, he was supposed to go in the 5-10 range and the caps took him first. 

 

I am not joking ;) I hate him 

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I'm confused, or perhaps I am missing something, but how is it strange for Canadian teams to lobby for this? How are things currently more advantageous?

 

Wouldn't it be better for the Canadians at TO, MTL and VAN to be considered "domestics" in the USA? I can envision TFC shipping out Morgan to some yank team in exchange for a draft pick or something. As things are now, no team is going to waste an international spot on him, but I bet several teams would line up to take him as a domestic. Morgan gets to play, TFC gets roster flexibility, what is not to like?

 

I would wager that all 3 of our MLS teams are in the top 10 for producing home grown players. Exporting some of those to the US can give our teams some much needed flexibility. Plus it would be great for the CMNT of course :)

 

 

Canadian teams have an expanded player pool for domestics as compared to the American teams, giving them more roster power in theory.. In reality, with American teams often not using their international spots and few Canadians available that will make an instant impact, it hasn't really mattered either way.

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I'm confused, or perhaps I am missing something, but how is it strange for Canadian teams to lobby for this? How are things currently more advantageous?

 

....

 

I'll leave it to those who give more of a shit about MLS than I to correct my errors but as I understand it....

 

Currently Canadian FRANCHISES in MLS are allowed to have foreign workers who carry an American passport to count as "domestics" for the purposes of MLS domestic player quotas.  Because MLS is one of those leagues that have DOMESTIC QUOTAS.    

 

Now how this is even possible under Canadian law I have no idea as to me it seems a pretty clear cut case of discrimination against Mexicans and others but whatever.  This has two results.

 

1st it increases the Canadian franchise's labour pool.  Which of course means if there is a perceived limit to the talent you need to have on the field (ie Canadians) you can counter some or all of the inflationary effects of a shallow labour pool by broadening it to include 300 million Americans.

 

2nd but worse, is it creates a dis-incentive for the Canadian franchises to employ Canadian talent.  Why?  Because 17 of the 20 franchises whom you share talent with would have to count your Canadian asset as a foreign national when it comes time to move said asset down the road.  So unless your Canadian asset is head and shoulders above the usual drones out there on the factory floor why would you take on the bother?  Just bring in a Yank and don't sweat the future if you need to move a player (and their salary) on.

 

Which brings us to conspiracy theory time.   

 

So why the change of heart?  Why would clubs who've enjoyed the status quo want to see it changed.  Here's the workings of a cynical mind.

 

Say the governing body in Canada, for whatever reasons, is suggesting to the MLS franchises operating in Canada (you know, the CSA's jurisdiction in all things footie related.  At least according to FIFA) that if MLS is to have domestic quotas then domestic quota means domestic quota.  That is to say Americans on American teams and Canadians on Canadian teams.

 

That's a game changer no?  A right proper disaster for all the Canadian franchises as all those marginal US players who're making up the "domestic" quota now are no longer an option for those operating in the Great White North.  

 

Serious short term pain.

 

But what if MLS offered their Canadian franchises reciprocity?  Both countries count their players as domestics on both sides of the border?  Seems fair enough.  Then it could be said employment was based AT LEAST on the assumption of merit and not passport.

 

It's the lesser of two evils.

 

Canadians counting as domestics only with Canadian franchises.  Americans counting as domestics only with American franchises.  Or....

 

Canadians and Americans counting as domestics with all franchises.

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I'm confused, or perhaps I am missing something, but how is it strange for Canadian teams to lobby for this? How are things currently more advantageous?

 

 

 

From what the posted article says, basically all those Canadians lose a lot of trade value with american teams when a Canadian team tries to trade one to an American team. As most people are probably keenly aware about MLS, while there are stars, still a big hunk of the roster is made up of role players and low cap figure guys. For players like that an American team wouldn't want to waste an international spot on a Canadian. A guy like Kyle Bekker comes to mind as the type of player this could really help.

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If this was 2013, the comparison you would be making a lot of nights is Frank Jonke and Andrew Wiedeman. MLS has a half dozen standouts per team; the remaining players aren't that far beyond NASL level in talent or salary.

 

 

Exactly.  If I want to watch "star players", I'm not likely watching MLS in the first place.  

 

And yes, I for one would be watching Quebec City vs Regina over LA vs Toronto.   Quebec vs Regina would probably have a dozen Canadians on the field.  LA vs TFC might have two.  Most MLS matches have none.

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LOL.  Well, when I have the time I'm here for you.

 

Good Lord, who are you?  My Mum?  Might be giving away your age there I think.

 

For those not in the know.  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/guttersnipe

 

I'm not related to you but probably similar age to your folks. I've always loved that term. First read it in a book in the 90s. Used to post here as tmcmurph but I'm sync'ing all my accounts to my google handle even the ones that aren't ready for it yet. I've had the old one since the mid 1980s so it was time.

 

Your other analysis was good but I doubt the CSA would ever have the guts to say anything like that to the 3 clubs. They've already made their bed and are happy in it. I can see them expanding the number of signed players from 3 to 6 over the next few years. 

 

For point 2 there is no real disincentive to sign Canadian as they can always be cut if they don't work out. It's not like the MLS contracts give the players many rights or options.

 

What it does do is give Canadian teams an incentive to develop talent. If the player isn't good enough to warrant a homegrown tag then he is not good enough for MLS. Some will be some won't. Some will go to Germany some to other lower Euro leagues to continue development. In all cases it will expand the player pool for out MNT. 

 

It used to be a player would have to go to Europe to get serious academy training. That wasn't an option for a lot and now they have 3 more first rate training academies to choose from. That is especially helpful for those without Euro connections. 

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What it does do is give Canadian teams an incentive to develop talent. If the player isn't good enough to warrant a homegrown tag then he is not good enough for MLS. Some will be some won't. Some will go to Germany some to other lower Euro leagues to continue development. In all cases it will expand the player pool for out MNT.

.

 

I think it would help with the trading values of Canadian players, and that if they sign one per say and want to trade a Canadian, let's say Osorio. (Not implying anything by that, but let's say that TFC wants to trade Osorio to see how much he's worth in MLS)

 

How many American teams will say "He's good, but he's a foreigner and will only put a second round pick for the player"? So, your best chance is to trade with Montreal or Vancouver and they know that while Osorio has some value for them, if TFC wants to trade him, they won't get as much.

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I think it would help with the trading values of Canadian players, and that if they sign one per say and want to trade a Canadian, let's say Osorio. (Not implying anything by that, but let's say that TFC wants to trade Osorio to see how much he's worth in MLS)

 

How many American teams will say "He's good, but he's a foreigner and will only put a second round pick for the player"? So, your best chance is to trade with Montreal or Vancouver and they know that while Osorio has some value for them, if TFC wants to trade him, they won't get as much.

 

Very true. The trading value south of us declines due to the stupid rule and trades within Canada are devalued a bit. Hopefully that changes soon to be balanced. Even if US teams could count the first 2 canucks as domestics it would open up a lot of opportunities and be a lot more fair. 

 

We'll see if it is just more smoke billowing out of Garber's arse or not. 

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....

Your other analysis was good but I doubt the CSA would ever have the guts to say anything like that to the 3 clubs.

...

Unlikely, however the CSA may not be the one taking the initiative. There may be third parties involved who are attached directly or indirectly to the organisation and have out of curtosy informed the CSA of their intensions. That is to say challenge the legality of MLSs employment practices.

They're forcing the CSA's hand.

If the jig is up there's no way the CSA can be seen as anything but supporting the action, that's obvious. So the Canadian franchises are doing what they can to keep unrestricted access to cheap US labour through an open border policy.

Kind of has a ring of truth to it no?

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I don't see the MLS changing the rule, mainly because if it comes down to appeasing the USSF or the CSA, MLS will pick the USSF every time. The USSF doesn't want to see Canada become a soccer power, and really only tolerate Canadian presence at all because of the money and teams it's brought into their leagues which gives their leagues stability and in turn helps their ability to produce players.

 

As far as doing this because they see the NASL Canada league as a threat...well that's a maybe. The NASL has some big advantages over MLS, although most of these advantages are only realized if the teams/league takes off and brings in big revenue. First off, there is no salary cap, unlike MLS. If the NASL teams ever began pulling in MLS numbers, suddenly you have a much better ability to bring in higher quality talent. You also have TSN giving this league a better TV deal then MLS, just by the sheer volume of Canadian content (once again IF it began pulling in MLS numbers). 

 

Second, because you have a separate Canadian league, you have a much greater flexibility to segregate and integrate it with US NASL teams and walk the line of USSF sanctioning. This in turn also means you can expand the Canadian side of the league and US side of the league as you like, and you aren't as hamstrung as MLS with how many teams you have, and the lack of promotion and relegation (that none of their owners are keen on, given how much they paid for their franchise). However, you can't exactly expand if success in the league isn't realized.

 

All in all, I think MLS isn't going to make any changes, unless they see a Canadian NASL league start drawing close to comparable numbers to their Canadian MLS teams (which is a long, long way off unless every team shows the kind of support Montreal, Vancouver and seemingly Ottawa have for their teams while they were in the NASL). Until then, it's barely a blip on the radar, especially given I don't see the NASL league getting off of TSN2 very often.

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I don't see the MLS changing the rule, mainly because if it comes down to appeasing the USSF or the CSA, MLS will pick the USSF every time. The USSF doesn't want to see Canada become a soccer power, and really only tolerate Canadian presence at all because of the money and teams it's brought into their leagues which gives their leagues stability and in turn helps their ability to produce players.

 

I see opposite. USSF want a stronger CONCACAF for good competition for USMNT getting ready for WC. 

 

US more or less has a lock on one of CONCACAF WC spots. US has the population, and now is devoting resources to pump out good players, way more than anyone else in CONCACAF except Mexico. But to get prepared for WC, you need to play competitive games. Wasting year and half of national team games on a weak CONCACAF WCQs don't do much. As well, Gold Cup games become more meaningful with more competitive teams. There is a reason why Klinsmann had USMNT play so many friendly games. It's because CONCACAF wasn't providing strong enough competition. And friendlies are just friendlies.

 

MLS is more or less ending up being the league where a lot of CONCACAF minus Mexican players go to anyways. MLS is already developing CONCACAF national team squads. 

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Come on people, this rule is not a conspiracy by the USSF to keep Canada down. There are at least 30 international spots available in MLS right now. The going rate is usually a late draft pick or, in MLS terms, FREE. There's nothing stopping Canadian Internationals from playing in MLS other than 1) many are not good enough and 2) the ones that are good enough don't want to play here.

 

Some people seem to think that if Canadians were treated as domestic in MLS we'd suddenly have another 30 guys playing top tier football. That's not going to happen. I predict we see less than 5 more Canadians at US clubs.

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Come on people, this rule is not a conspiracy by the USSF to keep Canada down. There are at least 30 international spots available in MLS right now. The going rate is usually a late draft pick or, in MLS terms, FREE. There's nothing stopping Canadian Internationals from playing in MLS other than 1) many are not good enough and 2) the ones that are good enough don't want to play here.

 

Some people seem to think that if Canadians were treated as domestic in MLS we'd suddenly have another 30 guys playing top tier football. That's not going to happen. I predict we see less than 5 more Canadians at US clubs.

If we had 5 additional Canadians enter the league via American clubs that would give our national team a boost for sure.

 

Also, I don't believe that Canadians who are "good enough" don't want to play here. The only players who likely fit that bill are Hutchinson, deJong, Edgar and Jakovic. You could make a case for Jackson and Hainault. Simeon may see himself as top league player after his experiences in the EPL and Bundesliga. He's in his prime so he's probably trying to get back to that level before he's on the wrong side of 30. Hainault, from what I recall reading, said he was looking to challenge himself in Europe again, but he also lost his place at Houston to Sarkodie. Before that, he was a starting CB with MLS Cup final experience and a reasonable salary (150 k?). Regardless, the only interest within MLS for him was from Montreal. For a player with his profile, it's certainly eyebrow raising that only one club, a Canadian club, publicly expressed an interest. 

 

One very important thing to consider regarding international spots is flexibility (or a lack thereof). Many MLS teams have their international spots full, so bringing in an international can involve quite a bit of roster juggling. So If you're going to go through that headache for a player, they better be worth it right? Now, given the fact that Canadian and American players have similar skill sets, why would clubs go through all that trouble to land a Canadian? If NYRB have the option to bring in either David Edgar or Jonathan Spector to shore up the backline, we all know who will win out. Why would anyone waste an international spot, or worse, shift around their roster to free up an international spot, when you can address the same need with the domestic option? Now, bringing in a technically gifted Latin American, a speedy Jamaican/Trinidadian/African, or a European with big league experience? That warrants using an international spot! 

 

So this is not just a case of: If a Canadian is good enough MLS clubs will use a roster spot on them.

 

 

Edit: If this does go through, my prediction is that within 5 years, there will be an equal amount of Canadians on both sides of the boarder. I am going to go further and say that over half of the American-based Canadians will enter from either the Impact, Whitecaps or TFC.

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Well, we know the Galaxy, big user of international spots, went out of their way to sign Rob Friend so I don't think it's that much trouble. Houston only benched Hainault after he made it clear he planned to go to Europe after the season and that was widely known around the lague.

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Well, we know the Galaxy, big user of international spots, went out of their way to sign Rob Friend so I don't think it's that much trouble. Houston only benched Hainault after he made it clear he planned to go to Europe after the season and that was widely known around the lague.

 

True about Hainault, but Rob Friend addresses a specific need for Bruce Arena (big target man). He is a specialist and justifies the usage of an international spot. I can't think of a 6 foot 5 American striker with decent feet and a European resume like Friend.

 

I'd say big Rob is the exception rather than the norm. 

 

By contrast, I'd wager that Ricketts and REB could cut it in MLS. Sadly. the international tag really makes it unlikely someone would take the chance. First of all, there are several American domestics who are just as good and offer the same skill set. Second of all, if you were going to bring in such a player as an international, you could likely sign a Jamacian/Trinidadian/Honduran for less money. 

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Well, we know the Galaxy, big user of international spots, went out of their way to sign Rob Friend so I don't think it's that much trouble. Houston only benched Hainault after he made it clear he planned to go to Europe after the season and that was widely known around the lague.

 

Friend has a Green Card, and as such counts as a domestic in the USA.

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  • 1 year later...

Larson is reporting that there may be change to how Canadians are classified starting next season.

n2sWMGhH_normal.png Kurtis Larson (@KurtLarSUN)
CSA prez Montagliani tells me he's confident there will be a Canadian content solution in MLS ahead of 2016 season. A few options.

There is a blurb about it at the end of his World Cup article:
http://www.torontosun.com/2015/12/06/political-will-is-there-to-host-mens-world-cup-in-2026

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There was also an article in Vancouver a couple of days ago. Victor is pushing hard.

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/soccer/weber+rush+revise+domestic+rule/11569154/story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

MLS has made huge strides since the Whitecaps joined North America’s top tier in 2011.

Better players. Better stadiums. Better crowds. Better TV deals.

But in terms of better opportunities for Canadian players league-wide, it’s been plodding progress, with the obvious exception being back-to-back MLS rookies of the year.

“Stay tuned” was the surprisingly positive answer from MLS commissioner Don Garber a year-and-a-half ago when he was asked — again — about Canadians counting as domestic players across the league, like their U.S. counterparts do.

It was a decided shift from the league’s repetitive response that U.S. labour laws prevented such a change to their rules — even though Canadians count as domestic players across the USL, two tiers down.

Canadian soccer fans are still staying tuned, and understandably skeptical.

The commissioner’s latest comments on the issue, to the Toronto Sun on Friday, left a mixed impression.

Garber said glowing things about the three Canadian clubs, their fans, and he admitted that league executives need to spend more time north of the border.

But he summed up his answer to the Sun’s Kurtis Larson with: “At the end of the day, the Canadian player needs to get better. The MLS clubs in Canada need to do their part to ensure that happens.”

It sure doesn’t sound like sweeping change is coming to the roster rules, although Garber said that some form of incentive to sign Canadian players could be considered.

For Canada Soccer president Victor Montagliani, meaningful change remains a priority.

“I can tell you that I have the support of the Whitecaps and Toronto, unequivocally,” he said. “The leadership in those cities is definitely on board with the agenda and I’ll be meeting with (the Canadian clubs) this weekend.

“It’s not going to go away. I just think it’s ridiculous, quite frankly, that a player like Adam Straith (who was in town Thursday to promote the Canada-Mexico game in March) is treated differently than Steven Beitashour — not to pick on Steven — or Jordan Harvey.”

Beitashour and Harvey are both American defenders on the Whitecaps and thus considered domestic players here.

The Victoria-raised Straith, for example, would only be a domestic MLS player in Canada. A U.S.-based club would have to use one of their limited international spots on him, which isn’t going to happen.

For the record, Straith, 25, is under contract and enjoying his time in Norway’s second division with Fredrikstad, but would love to play in MLS one day.

More flexibility around acquiring Canadian players could also make it more likely for top talent like Atiba Hutchinson and Junior Hoilett to come back from Europe one day and build on the legacy of Pat Onstad, Dwayne De Rosario and others as Canadians who’ve made their mark in MLS.

Pushback could come from U.S. Soccer, or from the U.S. clubs, who outnumber the Canadian ones 17 to 3 (and growing). But Montagliani remains confident that positive news is coming on this issue.

“The Canadian way is to be diplomatic, and I think we have been,” he said. “I think it’s moved now from the back burner to the front burner, and I’m hoping within the next season we’ll have a solution.”

What form that solution will take remains unclear

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3 hours ago, lazlo_80 said:

my guess is it's something like "first 2 canadians on US teams count as domestics" or something like that. It would be great if they were all considered domestics though.

which would still be 34 new spots open to Canadians. I would take this in a heart beat as it's a great start.

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