Garber hints at change to 'Canadians as internationals' rule.

[RJB]

10 hours ago, Keegan said:

.. no one would ever dream of giving Paul Peschisolido, Mark Watson or Nick Dasovic a position under similar circumstances, and those are 2 very comparable sets of experience.  

Mark Watson was the head coach of San Jose after Yallop was fired.  He didn't do very well, and so was fired. 

[Keegan]

9 hours ago, RJB said:

Mark Watson was the head coach of San Jose after Yallop was fired.  He didn't do very well, and so was fired. 

Yes I realize this, but that was on an American team.  A dozen other guys held coaching positions in Canada and weren't very good and were fired as well... my point is questioning why Canadian teams are continually ready to fail with foreign coaches but even American teams will give shots to Canadians before our clubs.

9 hours ago, RJB said:

Any changes to the Canadians as domestics rule would be nothing short of a gift.  Frankly, they aren't needing to do anything: American league, American rules.

Why do we feel so entitled to any changes?  I understand that we want changes, but when will people on here start to realise that MLS is American.  Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto are not part of this league because MLS wants Canada to improve, they are part of this league because that makes economic sense for MLS. 

Any changes would be appreciated, but boy oh boy, they shouldn't be expected.

Why should they have their cake and eat it too?  So they get our 3 best economic markets and we get...?  There has to be give and take here, we didn't just donate 3 of their biggest markets for the expansion of American soccer.  

MLS stopped being a solely American league when they chose to expand to Canada.  And at the end of the day our association is the one with the power to pull the plug on the three clubs if they wanted to.  The Americans would be much worse off without our 3 markets... the league is now noteworthy in 2 countries.  Remember MLS in 2006?  Ya, not many do...

Per capita Canada blows the USA out of the water in MLS ratings.  National TV deal with TSN... 3 of the highest drawing clubs in their league.  One member of MLS "Cascadia", without Vancouver it's just Seattle - Portland, no need to mention what Toronto alone has done for this league, without Montreal etc.  

MLS has a lot more to lose than you think.  And yes, it SHOULD and WILL be expected... they are just putting this off for as long as possible.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Time for a Voyageur letter

I personally believe that we have a very good case. Fairness, even when it benefits another, is something most humans are willing to recognize, and I am sure the majority of American fans, if asked, would say sure: Canadians should have the same status as Americans in MLS because MLS has teams in both countries. The current system is unfair, protectionist, protectionist and unfair in a silly way, and disrespectful to a sizeable and important chunk of the league, based in Canada.

We have produced letters before, so my proposal is to do another one. I have been involved in the past, in other such initiatives (vs Dale Mitchell, for eg), but I am no expert on the issues. The letter could be signed by the Voyageurs. Our MLS supporter groups could be asked to ahere to it, or even be co-signatories. If there is internal support, amongst Canadian fans, then great, if not, then we'd have to consider its worth. 

If going ahead it would then be sent to the CSA, first, and the the MLS. As well as to supporter groups from other US MLS clubs. We could support it with a press release. I will not talk about what the press would do with it, since the press is sovereign to cover what they want. I will take a stab at putting a draft for this on another thread in the upcoming days.

As someone with experience with these things, the best thing to do, if it matters, is take steps forwards and not try to second guess the initiative before it has been made public. Let the public decide, you can be surprised, you never know. And put the pressure on Garber and US Soccer, who are behaving in a very defensive manner by not offering to remove these anti-Canadian clauses. Just what are they afraid of?

Trump says he won't build a wall on the northern border, but when it comes to Canadian soccer players, the MLS and US Soccer already have.

[Bison44]

I cant remember which thread it was in but somebody was quoting low numbers of Int roster spots being filled in middle of the offseason awhile back.  Trying to make it seem like it was no big deal and that it doesn't enter the clubs thinking.  Well check the number now, with roster compliance deadline coming and season about to start.  Everyone starts with 8 and they get traded back and forth but only a few teams have only 4-5 Intl spots taken (Dc, New Eng, RSL, TFC), most have 6-8 and several have 10-11 Int players (I'm pulling this right from MLS homepage article) I think smart GM's are thinking about those spots with every transaction and filling the bottom end of the roster with Americans/Non Internationals, saving a INT spot for a mid season signing etc.   It would be nice if CDN players got some sort of min-exemption on this.  Sure hope this happens and its not more smoke and mirrors.

[RJB]

15 hours ago, Keegan said:

Why should they have their cake and eat it too?  So they get our 3 best economic markets and we get...?  There has to begive and take here, we didn't just donate 3 of their biggest markets for the expansion of American soccer.  

MLS stopped being a solely American league when they chose to expand to Canada.  And at the end of the day our association is the one with the power to pull the plug on the three clubs if they wanted to.  The Americans would be much worse off without our 3 markets... the league is now noteworthy in 2 countries.  Remember MLS in 2006?  Ya, not many do...

This is the entitlement that I was talking about.  Listen, I want better Canadian quotas as much as the next person, but MLS is American.  Whether they have teams in Canada or not, they are American, and so as far as I'm concerned they can and will do what they want.  I think that they should change the rule (doesn't the CHL have a good example of this?  I'm not sure), but I certainly don't expect them to.  Any change would be gravy.

And don't kid yourself: any change that takes place is because it will make financial sense for MLS.  They are a business, and that is the only reason. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, RJB said:

This is the entitlement that I was talking about.  Listen, I want better Canadian quotas as much as the next person, but MLS is American.  Whether they have teams in Canada or not, they are American, and so as far as I'm concerned they can and will do what they want.  I think that they should change the rule (doesn't the CHL have a good example of this?  I'm not sure), but I certainly don't expect them to.  Any change would be gravy.

And don't kid yourself: any change that takes place is because it will make financial sense for MLS.  They are a business, and that is the only reason. 

Historians of Canadian foreign policy have consistently demonstrated that Canada has always had more possibilities for negotiating with the US on a wide range of issues than they have taken or wanted to take.

That there have existed in the US major sympathies to Canadian positions, in US politics, in economic spheres. That anti-Canadian positions are very minority and hard to sustain. But that Canadians, on a political level, in economics, have almost always been too timid and too fearful of rocking the boat. 

Those opposing the results of such research apparently do so, from what I have read, because the Canada as a silent but accepting victim stance has been widely perceived as beneficial to Canada. 

I'm just saying this because your position reflects this position of defeatism, or interpreting the US as being against Canadian interests. And is consistent with what weak Canadian politicans have used as an excuse to not do anything and take what they can get. 

But I'll shut up, put my money where my mouth is, and put a letter together for discussion.

[Yohan]

On 2/25/2016 at 9:20 AM, jpg75 said:

I doubt anything will change. The Canadian Premier League teams will be looking to stock their rosters with Canadians so the CSA will actually have an interest in suppressing competition for Canadians by keeping the MLS CanCon requirements low.

DIsagreed. CSA wants more Canadians in MLS, because MLS is, and will be highest level of competition for NA for a long time. CSA wants more Canadians playing in better competitions for the sake of national team pool.

[jpg75]

30 minutes ago, Yohan said:

DIsagreed. CSA wants more Canadians in MLS, because MLS is, and will be highest level of competition for NA for a long time. CSA wants more Canadians playing in better competitions for the sake of national team pool.

Perhaps long-term, but in the short-term the success of the CPL will be the priority and financially it makes more sense to have less competition for the Canadians they want to sign.

[rob.notenboom]

5 hours ago, jpg75 said:

Perhaps long-term, but in the short-term the success of the CPL will be the priority and financially it makes more sense to have less competition for the Canadians they want to sign.

I suspect that it will be resolved one way or the other when the announcement is made for what the new 2017 MLS CanCon rules are (this is assuming that there actually will be new rules and that Garber isn't full of crap again). If there is an increase in Canadian roster spots or a significant easing of the restrictions on Canadians as domestics, it will suggest that the CSA does want more players in MLS. If there is only a marginal or insignificant increase (or no increase at all) then it would appear that they are prioritizing the CPL. 

[jpg75]

9 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

I suspect that it will be resolved one way or the other when the announcement is made for what the new 2017 MLS CanCon rules are (this is assuming that there actually will be new rules and that Garber isn't full of crap again). If there is an increase in Canadian roster spots or a significant easing of the restrictions on Canadians as domestics, it will suggest that the CSA does want more players in MLS. If there is only a marginal or insignificant increase (or no increase at all) then it would appear that they are prioritizing the CPL. 

Of course, we'll see what happens. Just giving my two cents.

Another thing that just came to me is if MLS CanCon was really a priority then the CSA would have increased the ridiculously low 3 Canadian per Cdn team quota. I mean c'mon, it should easily be 5 and maybe even 7 without putting our teams at a disadvantage.

[Soccerpro]

On December 9, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Bison44 said:

There might not be a "tidal wave" of kids out there who need s better chance but you named two yourself (Laryea and Chapman).  I could name a few as well (S.SAiko and P.Hamilton from a few years back).  The point is, why is there a double standard?  Why do our CDN clubs have more incentive to take american youngsters, and american clubs have negatives attached to young CDN talent.  It was a strictly american league but now you could argue 3 of the strong franchises are CDN.  Its total BS that this hasn't happened before.  it should happen immediately, even if not 1 more CDN player is in MLS next year, maybe so Garber can at least pretend he is giving the CDN clubs a fair deal.  

It's the Canadian MLS who want a low Canadian player quota.

[rob.notenboom]

2 hours ago, jpg75 said:

Of course, we'll see what happens. Just giving my two cents.

Another thing that just came to me is if MLS CanCon was really a priority then the CSA would have increased the ridiculously low 3 Canadian per Cdn team quota. I mean c'mon, it should easily be 5 and maybe even 7 without putting our teams at a disadvantage.

Wasn't it originally 6 when Toronto entered the league? I thought it was and then when Vancouver and Montreal entered the league it was lowered. I could be remembering this completely incorrectly. 

[Soccerpro]

6 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

Wasn't it originally 6 when Toronto entered the league? I thought it was and then when Vancouver and Montreal entered the league it was lowered. I could be remembering this completely incorrectly. 

It was 6 or 7.

[jpg75]

1 hour ago, rob.notenboom said:

Wasn't it originally 6 when Toronto entered the league? I thought it was and then when Vancouver and Montreal entered the league it was lowered. I could be remembering this completely incorrectly. 

Pretty sure it was 10 for the first year, then got changed the next year after Mo Johnston bitched and moaned.

[Kurt-MTL]

IF this actually happens, I think the whole landscape changes; especially if the CPL really gets going and starts churning out talent.. 

[shorty]

3 hours ago, Kurt-MTL said:

IF this actually happens, I think the whole landscape changes; especially if the CPL really gets going and starts churning out talent.. 

I think this is a good point.  Long term, if CPL gets off the ground and does well, it will need/want a market to sell players on or loan them.  Overseas is great but the competition is much greater as a seller, obviously.  Closer to home, they would want to have 24/28 potential MLS buyers, not just 3.  This is surely part of them doing their due diligence for the long-term success of the league.  Plus, unlike the quota where the Cdn MLS teams and the CSA were/are at odds, the CSA and Cdn MLS teams would be on the same page regarding Cdns as domestics, and for the same reason.  TFC/VWFC/IMFC are more likely to take a flyer on a mid-roster Cdn player if they can move him on in the future as easily as an American journeyman.

[jpg75]

MLS is not in the business of paying transfer fees unless the player is high quality ie. young DP, DP, targeted allocation etc. Any fee paid is pro-rated over the length of the contract for cap purposes so a club would screw itself if it pays out any kind of significant fee for a non-cap exempt player. 

The CPL will have a much easier and lucrative market in Europe to sell its players to.

[baulderdash77]

I agree.  The MLS isn't the market for transfer fees.  Besides many CanPL played will be available on a free transfer every couple years.  

I suspect that the rule change will be very minor.  Like each MLS team can have 1 Canadian international count as a domestic and each Canadian MLS team must carry 5 Canadians or something like that.  

 

[TRM]

4 hours ago, Kurt-MTL said:

IF this actually happens, I think the whole landscape changes; especially if the CPL really gets going and starts churning out talent.. 

I don't think this is realistic.

1) Churning out talent, like Sigma FC, takes skilled youth development that most MLS academies envy. It is not common despite all the credentials they flash.

2) It takes a long time. The better part of a decade. If the league starts, if they last, if they can afford a youth development system. Chances are they will just partner with local groups which gives us nothing new.

3) They will be mostly providing playing spots to 18+ year old players who are not good enough for Europe, MLS and maybe USL/NASL. That is still a very valuable role but don't overestimate the impact it will have on our player pool.

[Yohan]

1 hour ago, jpg75 said:

MLS is not in the business of paying transfer fees unless the player is high quality ie. young DP, DP, targeted allocation etc. Any fee paid is pro-rated over the length of the contract for cap purposes so a club would screw itself if it pays out any kind of significant fee for a non-cap exempt player. 

The CPL will have a much easier and lucrative market in Europe to sell its players to.

CPL will be a feeder league to MLS, just like USL/NASL is. 

MLS teams have paid transfer fees for lower league players before. Not often, but it does happen. 

Euro leagues will look to MLS first for talent. Any CPL players that gets picked up won't command as much money, at least in short term. I highly doubt CPL will be better than USL talent wise, at least in short term.

[Bison44]

1 hour ago, TRM said:

I don't think this is realistic.

1) Churning out talent, like Sigma FC, takes skilled youth development that most MLS academies envy. It is not common despite all the credentials they flash.

2) It takes a long time. The better part of a decade. If the league starts, if they last, if they can afford a youth development system. Chances are they will just partner with local groups which gives us nothing new.

3) They will be mostly providing playing spots to 18+ year old players who are not good enough for Europe, MLS and maybe USL/NASL. That is still a very valuable role but don't overestimate the impact it will have on our player pool.

I think your 3rd point is very important.  How many talented young players hit 18 and have no where to go.  Not technical or advanced enough for most europe teams, NCAA/CIS doesn't have enough talented coaches to bring them along, and the 3MLS academies/USL teams only have room for so many players.  I dont think a CPL will "churn out talent", but it will keep alot of young guys in pro soccer a little longer, and for our guys that may have not had the technical skills at a young age, it will allow some late bloomers to at least have decent caererrs and show other youngsters you can make a  go of it.  You dont have to be ID'd by Barcelona at 12 and be in a european academy by 14 to be a pro football player.  Stick it out with a little CDN grit and hard work and some of these 30-40 young guys (who would only get their shot in a CDN league) toiling in the CPL will net us a few CMNT regulars.  

I dont really expect the Winnipeg Windies or the Hamilton Steelers to have Academies like the MLS squads, but they should provide the better CDNs from NCAA/CIS a chance to maybe turn into pros. 

[jpg75]

7 hours ago, Yohan said:

CPL will be a feeder league to MLS, just like USL/NASL is. 

MLS teams have paid transfer fees for lower league players before. Not often, but it does happen. 

Euro leagues will look to MLS first for talent. Any CPL players that gets picked up won't command as much money, at least in short term. I highly doubt CPL will be better than USL talent wise, at least in short term.

Can you tell me how many NASL players MLS has paid a transfer fee for in the last 10 years?

More Canadians were sold to Europe from the Toronto Lynx in a 3-4 year span in the late 90's-early 2000's than have been sold to MLS in the last 10 years. This also goes to TRM's point #3 and i agree with Bison44, the CPL will provide many young Canadians an opportunity to play the game - similar to the CSL did in the late 80's-early 90's. Even though the quality of the CSL was no better than NASL it still sent a dozen or more quality young players to Europe in its short life span. Why? Because the kids had a place to play. CPL will steal a lot of young prospects who are not signed by their MLS clubs or who want to bypass NCAA. If a teenager can prove himself at a level similar to NASL he will get scouted by clubs willing to pay 50-100K+ transfers like Stalteri, De Rosario and Hutchinson commanded. 

edit: Actually i'm not sure the Lynx got a transfer for DeRo. He played early in the '97 season but not sure he returned after the U20WC that summer and whether Zwickau had to pay any fee.

[Soccerpro]

Tom Fath said that a big part of the FC Edmonton business model would be selling young players for profit when he founded the club. Easier said than done.

[jpg75]

1 hour ago, Soccerpro said:

Tom Fath said that a big part of the FC Edmonton business model would be selling young players for profit when he founded the club. Easier said than done.

This is true. I wouldn't expect more than one transfer league-wide per year. I would not use transfer income as part of the league business model.

[baulderdash77]

I think the business model has to be without transfer fees. Transfer fees should be a pure bonus every couple years.

The MLS has created really a great business model for all of soccer to look at.  They have solid paid attendance good corporate sponsorship and improving TV deals and numbers.  

If you were going to start a league MLS style or NASL style you would definitely  go MLS style.   It looks sustainable  and they've  done a great job growing it.  We should be so lucky to have  a league run so well from a business  model perspective .