Garber hints at change to 'Canadians as internationals' rule.

[xcalibre]

On 7/14/2014 at 2:56 PM, tmcmurph said:

Loved the comment from krusader42:

"It could be "Canadians now count as internationals in Canada too, to make things fair" so let's not get too excited too quickly."

 

Does krusader42 know Don or what?  

 

With 17 teams in the US even allowing the first 2 spots Canadians occupy to be counted as domestics would open 34 more opportunities.

the other alternative is balancing things out by having Americans count as int'ls on Canadian teams - would hurt our 3 teams in the short-term but would be interesting.

[lazlo_80]

4 hours ago, pint said:

So if this rule is in place before the season starts who are the first canadians to come back to MLS?

Best guess from me would be Jackson or Edgar

See that's the thing. I think this helps us way more in the long term than the short term. I'm not sure who this suddenly opens the door to. My guess would be this benefits a guy like Aleman or Cavallini in a few years if European doors don't open up for them.

[Bison44]

I think it will benifit all the fringe guys, the people at the bottom of the roster.  Dunfield, Issey, Attakora, Cann, Porter, Bekker, Welshman, Saiko, P. Hamilton and a bunch of the younger USL guys.  Why take up a international roster spot on a CDN role player, journeyman or project when the US teams can plug in a cheap american and leave that international spot open for some sexy south american?  So few Us based teams have CDN players, even though they get drafted and many work their way through the Us college system.  Maybe they are just not good enough, but the added pressure of taking up a int spot must make  some of the Managers look to US players.  Even if it doesn't keep 1 more CDN playing pro soccer, at least it makes the playing field more even.  Why should the CDN teams be partners in MLS if they dont at least try to be fair.

[shermanator]

Until a change to Canadian player status on American MLS clubs is firmly announced, all this talk is just lip service. That being said, any change to roster rules which will bring more Canadian talent to MLS is welcome in my eyes. Just do it already or stop talking about potentially doing it one day.

[Soccerpro]

Changing the status of Canadians to domestic on U.S will be nice, but it won't help us all that much aside from a very few players.

Our much, much, much bigger problem, is that no matter how you look at it, we don't produce good soccer players.

Look at how many MLS, NASL and USL clubs there are in the U.S. Look at how many expansion clubs are being added every year. The number of roster spots compared to ten years ago is huge. But we simply aren't producing Cyle Larins, Jinathan Osorios etc, consistently enough.

Im excited that 2 or 3 Europe based Canadians might be able to come home and play in MLS if the rules are changed, and yes, every bit helps with our shallow player pool, but this is not going to solve all that much for our program. We need to develop better players.

I mean, why does it seem like there are so many more prominent Jamacians in MLS than Canadians? They don't count as domestics?

[Ruffian]

Canadian teams should revert to the original number of Canadians required on their roster when TFC was first in the league. Toronto FC petitioned to get it changed because they claimed there was not enough Canadians in available to fill these roles with quality players. They now have had time to develop these players and be able to play them now.

[Keegan]

“At the end of the day, the Canadian player needs to get better. The MLS clubs in Canada need to do their part to ensure that happens.”

What an unbelievably short-sighted and insulting comment by the Don.  Canadian players need to get better just like American players need to get better of course, but any person with half a brain can see that the two nationalities are working on different playing fields when it comes to MLS. We produce better player per capita at the moment so clearly both nations need to improve.  And really USA soccer loves to pat itself on the back and act like they're better than us but how much has their player development really improved in 15 years?  There hasn't been one world class player to come out of MLS and many of the new "stars" the USMNT boasts are actually German trained.

By Canadians being internationals on US clubs it not only makes them unattractive to American teams but to Canadian ones as well since with the high roster turnover of teams it makes it much harder to get value and/or find a taker for them from 17/19 teams you can trade with when it is time to move them along.  Our Canadian clubs need to compete with the rules that are laid out so I can't blame them for going with an American of equal skill to a Canadian when both are available.  Why?  Because when it's time for them to trade them they are worth more to every other team in the league!  Business.

In this league all it takes is a good run of form to make a name for yourself but if you don't get that chance you never can.  If Akindele didn't get chances with Pareja at Dallas who knows where he would be.. he could just as easily be playing for San Antonio.  And I'd bet that a large chunk of American players in the league would be subjected to the same fate as guys like Adrian Cann and Nana Attakora if they had to compete with every nationality for a roster spot.  And then would Don be saying, "At the end of the day, the American player needs to get better." ?  Of course not.

[Bison44]

I think the point of this is to help develop the CDN talent out there.  To help those 18-22 year old guys develop to the fullest.  Look at Ouimette, Osorio or maybe Tissot or Tiebert.  Part of them getting their chance was being CDN and helping to fill a quota on a CDN team.  Now some guys have real talent and run with it (Oso Tiebert, Adekube etc) some guys probably dont have the talent and dissapear.  If its more fair and US teams dont have any stipulations against picking young CDN talent, maybe a few more of those guys will develop into something and not flame out at 22-25 years old and take jobs as fire fighters.  Bringing back a few established guys playing in europe is nice in terms of developing a fan base in this country etc, but its not really pushing player development in the short term.

 What would be best is if we did have 2-3 more D-2 pro teams or the much talked about CDN league. More CDN teams with a self interest in developing CDN kids.    But being a pessimist, getting 1 of Hamilton, Calgary or maybe Winnipeg into the NASL is probably all we can hope for.

[shermanator]

The current setup just doesn't make Canadians attractive to MLS clubs. How many Canadians that count as internationals are on US MLS clubs? (ie. not Akindele or Johnson as they have US citizenship)? By my count, there are 3; Larin, de Jong and Ouimette. And I would guess that de Jong will not be at SKC long. 

That simply is just not good enough for a league that claims to be helping Canadian player development.

[lazlo_80]

10 hours ago, Keegan said:

“At the end of the day, the Canadian player needs to get better. The MLS clubs in Canada need to do their part to ensure that happens.”

What an unbelievably short-sighted and insulting comment by the Don.  Canadian players need to get better just like American players need to get better of course, but any person with half a brain can see that the two nationalities are working on different playing fields when it comes to MLS. We produce better player per capita at the moment so clearly both nations need to improve.  And really USA soccer loves to pat itself on the back and act like they're better than us but how much has their player development really improved in 15 years?  There hasn't been one world class player to come out of MLS and many of the new "stars" the USMNT boasts are actually German trained.

By Canadians being internationals on US clubs it not only makes them unattractive to American teams but to Canadian ones as well since with the high roster turnover of teams it makes it much harder to get value and/or find a taker for them from 17/19 teams you can trade with when it is time to move them along.  Our Canadian clubs need to compete with the rules that are laid out so I can't blame them for going with an American of equal skill to a Canadian when both are available.  Why?  Because when it's time for them to trade them they are worth more to every other team in the league!  Business.

In this league all it takes is a good run of form to make a name for yourself but if you don't get that chance you never can.  If Akindele didn't get chances with Pareja at Dallas who knows where he would be.. he could just as easily be playing for San Antonio.  And I'd bet that a large chunk of American players in the league would be subjected to the same fate as guys like Adrian Cann and Nana Attakora if they had to compete with every nationality for a roster spot.  And then would Don be saying, "At the end of the day, the American player needs to get better." ?  Of course not.

I think to some degree Garber is correct. Our ability to develop players isn't good enough

I'm really curious to see if a rule change does in fact suddenly improve the amount of Canadians in MLS. I don't see this tidal wave of Canadian talent that's just waiting for an opportunity. Otherwise wouldn't we at least be seeing more standouts at the USL level or the NASL level? I mean we have some on the player of the week lists and stuff like that in those two leagues, but nothing that makes me think there's a ton of kids out there who just need a better chance.

I think the way it improves Canadian players in the short term are in far less exciting and sexy ways. For example, people will draft a guy like Richie Laryea higher cause he counts as a domestic. People will take a shot on a guy like Jay Chapman if he doesn't work out in Toronto. Stuff like that

But like I said above, I think it's going to help us more in the long run, when kids realize they can play in North America more easily and maybe avoid some of the middling european and south american leagues. But I don't think there's a ton of kids right now who MLS is overlooking.

[Bison44]

There might not be a "tidal wave" of kids out there who need s better chance but you named two yourself (Laryea and Chapman).  I could name a few as well (S.SAiko and P.Hamilton from a few years back).  The point is, why is there a double standard?  Why do our CDN clubs have more incentive to take american youngsters, and american clubs have negatives attached to young CDN talent.  It was a strictly american league but now you could argue 3 of the strong franchises are CDN.  Its total BS that this hasn't happened before.  it should happen immediately, even if not 1 more CDN player is in MLS next year, maybe so Garber can at least pretend he is giving the CDN clubs a fair deal.  

[lazlo_80]

48 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

There might not be a "tidal wave" of kids out there who need s better chance but you named two yourself (Laryea and Chapman).  I could name a few as well (S.SAiko and P.Hamilton from a few years back).  The point is, why is there a double standard?  Why do our CDN clubs have more incentive to take american youngsters, and american clubs have negatives attached to young CDN talent.  It was a strictly american league but now you could argue 3 of the strong franchises are CDN.  Its total BS that this hasn't happened before.  it should happen immediately, even if not 1 more CDN player is in MLS next year, maybe so Garber can at least pretend he is giving the CDN clubs a fair deal.  

I 100% agree, any opportunity for us is helpful. Our talent pool is so shallow even 2 players makes a difference. All I'm saying is I don't think we'll see the big time fruits of this change immediately, but more something where we'll wake up 5 years from now and realize there's 20 more Canadian kids in the league thanks to this rule.

[Keegan]

It would also be helpful for players capped by Canada to have to go through the allocation process as USMNT players do.  The hypothetical 2 Canadians per US team isn't going to help us if these teams want to sign a guy like Simeon Jackson and his discovery rights are owned by Vancouver... not really worth giving up value for an average MLS player.  Many of the guys we can imagine coming back would be part-time starters or bench players so this is all relative to the Canadians on US teams goal.

[1zzurri]

On 12/9/2015 at 0:10 AM, lazlo_80 said:

I 100% agree, any opportunity for us is helpful. Our talent pool is so shallow even 2 players makes a difference. All I'm saying is I don't think we'll see the big time fruits of this change immediately, but more something where we'll wake up 5 years from now and realize there's 20 more Canadian kids in the league thanks to this rule.

especially will all the roster space due to the new teams popping up. 

[pint]

27 minutes ago, 1zzurri said:

especially will all the roster space due to the new teams popping up. 

I hadn't thought about that but at this point the MLS really needs to expand the domestic player pool and making Canadians          domestics is just one way of achieving that. Even if it only means 10 more canadians end up joining the league it provides for a improved depth.

[TRM]

On a semi-related note MLS is making an incremental $125,000 per season available to each club to sign Homegrown Players. That means one (really good) or two (good) prospects more on the roster probably in the 20-28 spots. All these non-salary-cap spots can really help a team so they will get used. The aggravating part is waiting for the players to take a starting spot.

[shermanator]

Mont Vic had an interview on Sportsnet where he says there will be a solution to the Canadians-as-domestics in MLS before the 2017 season. (begins at 6:55). Without knowing what the actual proposal is, here's hoping its one that is a massive step up from what we currently have.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/montagliani-aiming-to-clean-up-mess-at-concacaf/

[baulderdash77]

It's just MLS lip service.  Canada has been a good place for them.  3 of their best clubs are from Canada and there will be real competitive pressure for media eyes and more importantly sponsorship dollars after the CanPL starts up.

 So far they've had a monopoly and they've treated us shabbily in the process as far as developing our program.  Now they have to react to the coming competition.

 

[TRM]

4 hours ago, shermanator said:

Mont Vic had an interview on Sportsnet where he says there will be a solution to the Canadians-as-domestics in MLS before the 2017 season. (begins at 6:55). Without knowing what the actual proposal is, here's hoping its one that is a massive step up from what we currently have.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/montagliani-aiming-to-clean-up-mess-at-concacaf/

I'll believe it when I see it but at least they have put a date on it and not some vague "future" type "looking into it" nonsense. 

It would be a huge plus for the mobility of our players and add to their value.

[jpg75]

I doubt anything will change. The Canadian Premier League teams will be looking to stock their rosters with Canadians so the CSA will actually have an interest in suppressing competition for Canadians by keeping the MLS CanCon requirements low.

[rob.notenboom]

With all the lip service Garber's given on this topic, we should have c... ah never mind. 

[shermanator]

Totera with a beauty of a rant on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNSu-rZ7IdI&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

[Keegan]

1 hour ago, shermanator said:

Totera with a beauty of a rant on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNSu-rZ7IdI&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

I don't always agree with Totera but he's spot on.  Give us a break... this isn't American Football or Baseball, there's no chance that Americans are so far ahead of us that they are taking all of the positions for our professional clubs whether it be on the pitch, sidelines or in the offices.  I can't see this happening in any other country in the world.  Heck, it wasn't that long ago that USA was a laughing stock in the sport.

USA is ranked higher than us in the FIFA rankings and yet it seems to have a trickle down effect as if we are living next to Brazil and we need to grasp at all their talent/knowledge to survive.  It hasn't worked for any of the professional clubs up here, let's get some identity.  I'm not naive enough to think a team should be even half-Canadian but 20 Canadians in the entire league is just pathetic.

It's funny that often times the Canadian clubs are the ones giving Americans their first shot YET would never dream of giving ANY Canadian a shot.  Jesse Marsch, Greg Vanney, Tim Bezbatchenko... all eye raising selections but no one would ever dream of giving Paul Peschisolido, Mark Watson or Nick Dasovic a position under similar circumstances, and those are 2 very comparable sets of experience.  

[SthMelbRed]

2 hours ago, Keegan said:

 

It's funny that often times the Canadian clubs are the ones giving Americans their first shot YET would never dream of giving ANY Canadian a shot.  Jesse Marsch, Greg Vanney, Tim Bezbatchenko... all eye raising selections but no one would ever dream of giving Paul Peschisolido, Mark Watson or Nick Dasovic a position under similar circumstances, and those are 2 very comparable sets of experience.  

Of course, you mean other than Dasovic, Brennan, De Santis, Braz, Biello, and Greg Anderson, right? 

 

There's also that other Canadian guy at TFC that the supporters did nothing but moan about during their darkest days. I can't remember his name.

[RJB]

Any changes to the Canadians as domestics rule would be nothing short of a gift.  Frankly, they aren't needing to do anything: American league, American rules.

Why do we feel so entitled to any changes?  I understand that we want changes, but when will people on here start to realise that MLS is American.  Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto are not part of this league because MLS wants Canada to improve, they are part of this league because that makes economic sense for MLS. 

Any changes would be appreciated, but boy oh boy, they shouldn't be expected.