Garber hints at change to 'Canadians as internationals' rule.

[-Hammer-]

1 hour ago, pint said:

Say the CPL gets to a point where it also needs a lower division for Academy products to play in... would you then be fine with the CPL using USL as a farm system similar to MLS? or would you want a solely Canadian reserve league set up?

I wouldn't be opposed to them playing in the USL and treating the USL for what it really is, a reserve/farm league. I'd prefer local reserve leagues setup to save costs, but competitiveness could be an issue there.

It just needs to be made abundantly clear in writing from the USSF that the CSA has the final say on Canadian requirements for said reserve teams for the Canadian teams, including coaching, officiating of it's games, staffing etc, and that there is absolutely no room for compromise with that fact. That the USSF can't suddenly say "Alright, well it's a division 2 league now, all teams have a US player requirement, or Canadian specific requirements are no longer valid" and most of all none of this "Oh well...we are down to this many US teams, time to kick out Canadian reserve squads not meeting our team quotas". That the like it or leave it relationship that MLS/USSF and the CSA has now does not continue with any new endeavor.

Basically that the USL becomes a joint sanctioned venture between the USSF and the CSA and the USSF has to respect our desire to see Canadian players, coaches, officials etc all be developed at our discretion on said Canadian reserve teams and that these rights can't be arbitrarily wiped away. That the CSA has authority in said league and that can't be left in a position where they have to threaten yank teams out of the league because their development desires aren't being met and make them seem like the bad guy for doing it.

This is the core problem with binding actual high end pro development to any USSF league. We are bound to their terms and if we don't like them we can leave, of which is sure to be a PR disaster for the CSA if they ever follow through with said threat.

We are never going to get that say in MLS, we might be able to get that say in the USL reserve system (as we kinda do now with the very hard but fair Canadian requirements of the MLS farms). If this can't or won't be provided then no, we start our own local region reserve leagues, and if need be, yank the MLS farms should we get to that point. I doubt most fans would notice.

[ted]

3 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

I'm bullish on the future of L1O and it's equivalents. I think slotting a reserve side in there (or Quebec or the eventually BC) would be adequate. 

Yeah, I would prefer the MLS reserve/development teams be in the D3's (including the still mythical BC D3).

[TRM]

Hammer: Yes it has. Here is the partial list of delays and promises. Not included are the D2 NASL & PDL moratorium for a year in 2010-11.

Anyway we differ on the viability of a CPL and IF it will ever happen. Such is life.

[Ruffian]

This is good news

 

[-Hammer-]

On 9/15/2016 at 8:04 PM, TRM said:

Hammer: Yes it has. Here is the partial list of delays and promises. Not included are the D2 NASL & PDL moratorium for a year in 2010-11.

Anyway we differ on the viability of a CPL and IF it will ever happen. Such is life.

Just for some context here I said

"...no it hasn't. The CPL thread has mainly been based on Rollins reporting on the subject and a couple articles that the Ti-Cats made in the Spec and some dropped maybes by Vic. Not once did the CSA come out and yes "Yes, we are working on a pro league" The closes thing was the CUSL which never got past the business model phase. "

So...your two sources of the CSA coming out and saying "Yes we are working on it" are two forum posts in our own forum that link to Duane Rollins reporting, and one that references another source that pretty much just regurgitated Rollins's work. So...pretty much exactly what my post said the CPL threat discussed and sourced, not the actual CSA actually posting anything official.
 

[Ansem]

http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2016/09/15/don-garber-mls-expansion-landon-donovan-miami-beckham

“When I look at what’s happening across the U.S. for the most part, because I think we’re fully expanded in Canada, and you see markets like Austin and San Antonio, San Diego, St. Louis, Sacramento, Las Vegas and Cincinnati, these are big cities that have fans that already are engaged with the sport at some level professionally. I don’t know how we don’t provide those fans and owners and municipalities the opportunity to be involved in MLS. We’ve got to be smart about it, careful about it. 

Just a reminder

[jpg75]

If he's not careful we'll end up with NASL 2.0

[TRM]

5 hours ago, jpg75 said:

If he's not careful we'll end up with NASL 2.0

They have been a lot more patient and although tempting to accept 50-100 million any time someone offers it they are very much focused on not growing the league when they don't have the players to fill it.

With the large Mexican-American population base they know they will have a lot of players in the pipe. They want to attract more of them as fans but so far Liga MX draws more TV than MLS.

They still need to work on the low attendance teams like Dallas (location), DC and Chicago (both shitty teams this year). You can see 2 leagues being formed, MLS East & MLS West with the playoffs being the only interplay. They will need 32 - 36 teams for that to work so a long way to go but another 12-16 franchise fees is very rewarding.

Keep in mind Garber was once heaping praise on the Ottawa plan so take everything he says with a pound of salt. Any city he praises today may just be to provoke others he really wants.

[Complete Homer]

On 9/19/2016 at 11:08 AM, Ruffian said:

This is good news

 

Wow, he manages to sound condescending even with good news like this.

[Scorpion26]

Well if they MLS can have the same rule as USL does for its Canadian players that's going to be great. Plus it never made sense to me the argument why MLS could not do it since well USL been doing it all along....

[Ruffian]

9 hours ago, Scorpion26 said:

Well if they MLS can have the same rule as USL does for its Canadian players that's going to be great. Plus it never made sense to me the argument why MLS could not do it since well USL been doing it all along....

The phrase about Canadians having to be treated the same as other foreigners due to labour law is just a political statement put out by the MLS so they don't have to do what the CSA wants. It may not be a lie what they are saying, but it in no way is an absolute truth because this situation has not been tested in a court of law and there are many ways around these laws. Including NAFTA. This agreement allows Canadian citizens and permanent residents to easily get a green card if they have a job offer in the USA. We already know people with a green card are considered non-internationals.

Call MLS head office. I have solved it sitting on my couch. Even if this situation did pass all legal tests we know MLS and US Soccer would not accept this because it is not inline with what they want.

[jpg75]

Under NAFTA Canadians (and Mexicans) can easily get TN work visas. The green card rules should be the same for everyone.

[Complete Homer]

There are some medical schools in the USA that favour Canadian students over other internationals...positions that are highly contested and have stipends attached to them in clinical years. Surely that would be challenged if the law was so cut and dry.

If the fear really is about getting sued (At this point, the PR is probably bad enough that this is a factor in their inaction), the rule that has been tossed around ("Players developed at a Canadian academy count as domestic) would work just fine. Sure it would leave a few european developed players as internationals, but there will also be CPL for them and if they truly too good for CPL it won't matter as they would have a decent shot in MLS if they were coming back

[TRM]

On 2016-09-19 at 9:08 AM, Ruffian said:

This is good news

 

I'm in the "I'll believe it when I see it" camp. I said before and I'll say it again, Garber is a used car salesman. He'll say anything that someone wants to hear if it suits his agenda.

I hope it is so because basic fairness in marketability of our players suffers when there are only 3 teams that they count as domestics on without a green card.

Although I think it doesn't go far enough I think Complete Homer's idea of our academy players being accepted as domestics would be a step in the right direction. Be careful with that one. MLS will not extend this to players developed by rival leagues! NASL & CPL can forget it. Their academies would not be included. This would drive more promising youth to the MLS teams systems as MLS desires for sell on rights etc.

[Complete Homer]

44 minutes ago, TRM said:

I'm in the "I'll believe it when I see it" camp. I said before and I'll say it again, Garber is a used car salesman. He'll say anything that someone wants to hear if it suits his agenda.

I hope it is so because basic fairness in marketability of our players suffers when there are only 3 teams that they count as domestics on without a green card.

Although I think it doesn't go far enough I think Complete Homer's idea of our academy players being accepted as domestics would be a step in the right direction. Be careful with that one. MLS will not extend this to players developed by rival leagues! NASL & CPL can forget it. Their academies would not be included. This would drive more promising youth to the MLS teams systems as MLS desires for sell on rights etc.

I think it is happening. Larson has basically traded his journalistic integrity for career stability as TFC's FO's mouthpiece. That seems to be his solitary source, but if they are the ones saying it, some sort of change is coming. Whether or not it is a minor change as lip service or a real rule change is probably what remains to be seen. 

I hope for a decent compromise, but I expect a rule like "all players developed at MLS academies are domestic" 

They could say they did something, assert the position that MLS is the only soccer worth mentioning in Canada/USA, and satisfy USSF all in one fell swoop. 

[TRM]

A fair rule would be that all Canadians count as domestics. A decent compromise would be the first 2 Canadians on a US based team would be counted as domestic. One would be okay and a step in the correct direction but not fair. Doing just the MLS academy players would be typical Garberism type stuff but at least something to benefit some of our players.

We shall see soon enough I suppose. Here's hoping for the best.

[Complete Homer]

28 minutes ago, TRM said:

A fair rule would be that all Canadians count as domestics. A decent compromise would be the first 2 Canadians on a US based team would be counted as domestic. One would be okay and a step in the correct direction but not fair. Doing just the MLS academy players would be typical Garberism type stuff but at least something to benefit some of our players.

We shall see soon enough I suppose. Here's hoping for the best.

I agree, I'm just expecting a copout of some kind

 

[Kent]

On 24/09/2016 at 3:21 PM, TRM said:

A fair rule would be that all Canadians count as domestics. A decent compromise would be the first 2 Canadians on a US based team would be counted as domestic. One would be okay and a step in the correct direction but not fair. Doing just the MLS academy players would be typical Garberism type stuff but at least something to benefit some of our players.

We shall see soon enough I suppose. Here's hoping for the best.

A compromise like the one you suggest where the first 2 Canadians count as domestic would be upsetting. It would be an admission that there aren't any legal problems that are keeping them from counting Canadians as domestics, they just don't want to.

The speculated possibility of MLS academy developed players being domestic, regardless of where they are from, could at least be a rule where they could pass that off as being a compromise that gets around the legal troubles they claim to be worried about.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 7:53 PM, Complete Homer said:

Wow, he manages to sound condescending even with good news like this.

lol there's really no sense in which it's worded in a condescending way, and yet, for some reason, I agree.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 11:36 AM, Kent said:

The speculated possibility of MLS academy developed players being domestic, regardless of where they are from, could at least be a rule where they could pass that off as being a compromise that gets around the legal troubles they claim to be worried about.

if this isn't what happens, I'll throw a shit fit

[shermanator]

Here's a quote from Maxim Tissot on his time with the Impact. He touches on the issue of Canadians being treated as foreigners on American clubs.

http://stonymondayriot.com/smr-interview-series-maxim-tissot-midfielder/

Unfortunately, this year you were waived, suddenly it seemed, from the Impact and went to FC Montreal this year.
Yeah, kind of out of the blue but at the same time I keep telling media this, they asked me how I reacted when I was waived, and I always said I wasn’t surprised and that’s the problem. It came out of the blue but I wasn’t surprised. Players that are from there, homegrown players, never had the trust that foreign players have. I don’t know if it’s because when you see a player everyday versus when you see a player elsewhere. I had this conversation with one of my teammates regarding Laurent Ciman, who won Defender of the Year last year and he was like, “yeah, but he makes a lot of mistakes on defense” And I was like, “yeah, you see those because you see him everyday.” But look at someone who plays in Toronto for example, who sees Laurent from time to time, and he’s making great tackles. He looks like the best player in the league, the best defender in the league, and I think he is. So maybe that’s the thing for us when they see us everyday versus when a guy comes from Argentina where they haven’t seen a whole lot of him, just highlights, it’s easier to choose him instead of us. So I think that’s a big problem. It’s a problem in Montreal and they’ll have to correct it. There’s not a player that’s been from the Academy that has had a good chance of being a starter. It has to change if you want to develop your players and show the players that are coming through the system that they can have a great career there in Montreal, with Toronto, or with any of the Canadian teams. You have to put faith into those players. I was in Montreal for four years, I saw maybe 4 or 5 left backs come and go. I was still there and I never really got a chance.

Do you think that has something to do with the way MLS treats Canadian players?
A Canadian, if he doesn’t get picked by Montreal, Vancouver or Toronto is a foreigner everywhere else. It’s hard for Canadian players to make it through MLS if it’s not through those three teams. But the CSA are working hard and have been working hard for the past years to get that rule out. They’ve been putting pressure especially this year because it’s so important. You can’t count as a foreigner in your own league, a league that’s in part of your country. MLS has to take responsibility for the progression of Canadian soccer as well, not just US soccer. So it’s on their part to meet us halfway.

[shermanator]

Looks like Whitecaps owner Jeff Mallett confirms what Montagliani mentioned earlier regarding Canadians in MLS in 2017.

 

[Complete Homer]

Pretty important step. With this in place and Canadians as domestic in USL/NASL, there is a solid pathway for pros to stay pros

Throw in 8 more academies from CPL on the production side and L1O/equivalents giving late bloomers a place to strut their stuff, I think the next 20 years will be a lot rosier 

[shermanator]

As per this Steven Sandor article, the CSA believes a resolution for this issue will be in place before MLS Cup. And the solution will affect NASL as well.

And, the Canadian Soccer Association confirmed to me yesterday that everything is on schedule when it comes to finding a “solution” to the Canadians-as-domestics issue in MLS. In September, Canadian Soccer Association and CONCACAF President Victor Montagliani said that his “confidence was high” that the issue of how Canadians are treated in MLS would be resolved by the time MLS Cup came around. That decision would also spill over into NASL.

In both MLS and NASL, Canadians and Americans do not take up international roster spots on the Canadian-based clubs. But it’s not reciprocated on the American teams; on the U.S. based rosters, Canadians are considered imports, while Americans, of course, are domestics. This has created a system where very few Canadians get chances to play on American MLS or NASL teams, while Americans are welcome at our doors. What has consistently infuriated the Canadian Soccer Association is that the USL has always allowed Canadians to be domestics.

http://the11.ca/time-for-canadian-soccer-supporters-to-be-optimistic/

[Rheo]

Very vague but hopefully we'll here some good news on this