Toronto FC changes for 2013

[Trillium]

The guy who has been disappointing is Ashtone Morgan, he's not even going to be in the league in a few seasons if he doesn't improve. He relies on speed, physical play (often times borderline) and simple passes, it's actually sad to analyze his game solely in a match.

Is Ahtone a product of the Ontario soccer system where speed and physical play pass for skill ?

[TFC07]

Even next year he'll be only 21!! He has plenty of time, everyone needs to relax. The kid is a monster you can tell he needs time to adjust to his body, he often has that awkward baby giraffe look out there. But man he can make some monstrous plays back there at times. The tackle (not sure who it was on) where he just trapped the ball from the guys feet as he tried to take him on coming into the box and the Crew player just flopped into the box on impact was embarrassingly clean it was like he was playing a 13 year old.

The guy who has been disappointing is Ashtone Morgan, he's not even going to be in the league in a few seasons if he doesn't improve. He relies on speed, physical play (often times borderline) and simple passes, it's actually sad to analyze his game solely in a match.

He probably be first one to be loaned to new Hamilton USL Pro team.

[Oranje]

Little to no technique? He was more composed than anybody else in the backline. He maintained possession and distributed the ball really well.

I take it you two only watched the highlights.

I'm not a Henry fan-boy by any means as I have seen him play some awful games this season, but yesterday wasn't one of them.

I wouldn't classify composure as a technique, definitely a trait he does show glimpses of but he constantly gets beat by more technical players and then proceeds to grab onto the jersey and get away with a lot of it which was glaringly obvious in his defending of Arrieta in both Columbus fixtures. I watch every game and he does have the assets to become Canada's CB but he has to do a whole lot more improving than what others on this board and in the media are saying.

He gets his tires pumped because he makes outrageous athletic tackles but a lot of the time he's covering his own mistakes, which is good because he doesn't give up on the play, but wouldn't you rather a CB who doesn't make those mistakes in the first place?

See 1:45, 3:00 (not entirely his fault but bush-league defending exposed) and I remember at least 1 other time.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2013-07-27-tor-v-clb/recap

[ThiKu]

Those of you slamming Morgan - let's talk about Marvell Wynne.

Keegan has a really good point. Henry is only 20. So let's give him 2-3 years and see where he is at in his early 20's. Morgan as well.

[Mr.Impact]

Henry is.... 20 years old? He has a England Premier League level central defender as a coach, and another EPL centre back Caldwell playing beside him. How about we let him play, and enjoy his almost certain development. If he doesn't by end of next year then ya, it's probably time to move on. But for now...relax.

More like a The Championship type centre back. EPL was years ago, and limited at that.

[ag futbol]

Those of you slamming Morgan - let's talk about Marvell Wynne.

Keegan has a really good point. Henry is only 20. So let's give him 2-3 years and see where he is at in his early 20's. Morgan as well.

I agree with you. But I wonder if he won't fall victim to years of instability at TFC and also a bit of a slow progress in correcting his mistakes. Really needs to stop plowing through the back of guys trying to win no-hope challenges. If he doesn't correct that he won't be of any use to us in concacaf.

[narduch]

I'm starting to wonder if anyone on TFC is getting good coaching with a rookie in charge learning on the job and a career NCAA 3rd division coach as his 1st assistant.

But **** I don't even want to think about what happens if they fail.

[Michael Crampton]

I'm starting to wonder if anyone on TFC is getting good coaching with a rookie in charge learning on the job and a career NCAA 3rd division coach as his 1st assistant.

But **** I don't even want to think about what happens if they fail.

"Starting"?

It's almost definitional that they're probably not receiving good coaching. There's a good chance they'd probably not be getting good coaching even if Nelsen had worked his way up through assistant positions, earned his badges, and arrived at a head coaching position by paying his dues rather than anointment based on a perception of personal character and potential aptitude. Payne decided that a club who'd burned through seven previous head coaches in six seasons should hire a guy based on what he perceived as potential rather than LITERALLY any track record. Duane, DeVos, and Larson (among others) have been getting abused by a portion of the online fan base, desperate to believe in a narrative of renewal and a new plan, for pointing that out.

But you're absolutely right: hope is all we've got. KP took a huge gamble and the fans, who'll still be here, are the ones who will be left holding the bag if he was wrong. Fortunately, even bad coaches can be successful and good coaches can fail. And most coaches are just average. TFC probably has a below average coach right now but that likely only has a marginal impact on results and results barely matter in another blown season. If Nelsen can turn into an even average coach over time and Payne gets the roster right there's no reason, other than the hex placed on the club by Mo Johnston, they can't be at least as successful as DC was last year over a short period of time when the breaks go their way. Sometimes, in MLS, that's all it takes to be relevant or even win a title.

[narduch]

To be fair, a lot of the flack Duane Rollins and Kurt Larson are getting is based on how they handled Mariner with kids gloves.

Personally I like that the media isn't in lock step with the club. But I understand why some fans are wondering where this criticism was last season when we had a total joke of a manager running this team. Truly outrageous behaviour, down right poor moves and awful coaching were glossed over (whether Mariner was their drinking buddy or source is irrelevant)

Having followed this club since its inception, one thing this club has always had is a set of fans that are always willing to go to bat for management. For some people management always has all the time in the world to improve things. 'All they need is more time'. But in the real world eventually results have to happen. Right now there are still a lot of fans that want to keep the plan going as is. But we are starting to see some (warranted) criticism of Payne and Nelson.

I actually think this transfer window has been a failure. And may end up being Payne and Nelson's downfall. The summer window is the time to make the best moves to improve your club because most leagues in the world are having their off-season. The winter window doesn't allow for as much room to improve. This may come back to bite them in the ass next spring (almost a repeat of the Winter era).

One thing that has suprised me is that the attendance actually hasn't been that bad. Whether its the nice weather, cheaper tickets or the somewhat improved play, the seats have been way more filled than I expected for a team with a record this bad. Its too bad that the atmosphere isn't the same anymore.

[ag futbol]

I wonder about Nelsen as well. When it first came out I was mildly in favor of it. Would have preferred someone more experienced, but absent that, the younger MLS managers were starting to make breakthroughs and become good investments for teams. But looking at it more detail, I see a lot of troubling things. Some of the younger guys in this league who have stepped in have at least started as assistants, worked for youth teams, worked through the clubs they now manage... Nelsen doesn't have the benefit of any of that. So even among his inexperienced peer group, he is less experienced.

Anyway, I don't really want to form a full opinion of him yet. I've been frustrated with the way he's managed the team at times but will fully concede he was dealing with a terribly weak roster. So hopefully before the end of the year we start to see some glimmers of hope.

[Free kick]

Having followed this club since its inception, one thing this club has always had is a set of fans that are always willing to go to bat for management. For some people management always has all the time in the world to improve things. 'All they need is more time'. But in the real world eventually results have to happen. Right now there are still a lot of fans that want to keep the plan going as is. But we are starting to see some (warranted) criticism of Payne and Nelson.

The problem is that they cant stick with somebody. I completely agree with an earlier point made that you can still win with bad coaches and still lose with good coaches and that the vast majority of them are just average and really indistinguishable from one another except for the fact that they have different talent at their disposal. Thats the way i see the Mariner and Nelson comparaison; i see them as indistinguishable at this time (but that could change). However, you will lose and never be successfull as a club if you are always bringing in a new guy every year who goes about ditching the old and brings in his own. It becomes a vicious cycle of failure. And ultimately you never have cohesion and familiarity and never allow a team and team culture to develop. I would rather stick with a guy who is crap just to build some cohesion famiarity and culture intead of miraculously always trying to find the perfect guy with the midas touch. there probably is no such thing as a guy with the midas touch.

There are always exceptions to this rule such as in case where you have guy whose systems and approaches are not working in this league and its very evident (eg.: Aron Winter).

[ag futbol]

The problem is that they cant stick with somebody. I completely agree with an earlier point made that you can still win with bad coaches and still lose with good coaches and that the vast majority of them are just average and really indistinguishable from one another except for the fact that they have different talent at their disposal. Thats the way i see the Mariner and Nelson comparaison; i see them as indistinguishable at this time (but that could change). However, you will lose and never be successfull as a club if you are always bringing in a new guy every year who goes about ditching the old and brings in his own. It becomes a vicious cycle of failure. And ultimately you never have cohesion and familiarity and never allow a team and team culture to develop. I would rather stick with a guy who is crap just to build some cohesion famiarity and culture intead of miraculously always trying to find the perfect guy with the midas touch. there probably is no such thing as a guy with the midas touch.

There are always exceptions to this rule such as in case where you have guy whose systems and approaches are not working in this league and its very evident (eg.: Aron Winter).

I agree with the point here... kind of.

Really, TFC failed on multiple levels with their previous coaching changes. The track records / profiles were usually questionable, also the fit was usually bad. When we went from Preki>Winter>Mariner>Nelsen, the club experienced enough turnover to make your head spin. All those coaches had radically different ideas of the type of players they wanted to bring in, so we were always in effect starting over. I don't think the problem with Winter was the plan, Caleb Porter seems to be proving that it can work. The problem was that Winter was inexperienced as a manager and unfamiliar with MLS, so he wasn't the guy who was going to be able to implement it. I wish they would have stuck with the same vision and brought in someone new to follow through with it.

Anyway, I know this is the popular thing to say, but it just goes to show that Anselmi and company really did a poor job providing oversight to this team. Basic diligence and controls, something an engineer / business person should be very comfortable with, would have gone a long way to improving results.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The problem is that they cant stick with somebody. I completely agree with an earlier point made that you can still win with bad coaches and still lose with good coaches and that the vast majority of them are just average and really indistinguishable from one another except for the fact that they have different talent at their disposal.....

With TFC it all boils down to a bunch of hockey fans with no understanding of our sport doing whatever needs to be done to meet their sales targets. It isn't really anything that resembles a conventional soccer/football club where the glory that goes with winning ultimately usually means more than making money for the corporation to the people wearing the suits.

The early years being a struggle was no huge shock but once they started to be able to hire people that were not taking the job because they had zero prospects elsewhere (Johnston, Carver and Cummins) they should have been able to comfortably reach the playoffs at least once by now. From the outside looking in it appeared to me that they should have hung in there with Preki and backed him when he wanted to get rid of DeRosario, but they probably didn't know enough about soccer to understand why he wanted to do that (but they could see that it would upset some fans in a way that might mean fewer ticket sales and missed targets) and also the need to build strength in the team from the back as the first step to putting a winning team together (but they could see that it was upsetting some fans in a way that might mean fewer ticket sales and missed targets).

Next up was Aaron Winter doing the Ajax trident thing, which as a short term strategy was completely insane when your stature in the sport has a lot more in common with a club like Excelsior Rotterdam, but could make sense long term if they really did do the Ajax thing all the way through from U-12 level as a long-term strategy and if Winter was willing to be flexible on the 4-3-3 stuff until the Academy started to actually function something vaguely like Ajax's youth system. He wasn't and the going predictably got tough and that meant Winter had to go. What's next? Somebody who can do the long-term Ajax strategy more pragmatically than Winter did or a complete U-turn over to Land that Time Forgot type tactics under a big name former England international because the fans seemed to identify more with the soccer played under that Carver dude a lot more than they did the Dutch stuff? It's TFC so the question is obviously a rhetorical one.

A few months on and "Oh my god, that's not working either, what now?". DC United used to be a "dynasty" in MLS terms so let's get the guy who oversaw that in, he must know what he's doing even if we don't. Slightly more sensible, on the surface at least, than expecting TFC to be transformed into a clone of Ajax by the sheer aura of Aaron Winter's presence, but have they not noticed that DC United have been crap in recent seasons and that Payne may be available because he no longer has his finger on the pulse to the same extent that he used to and that there may even be the possibility that he simply got lucky in the early years where signing players like Etcheverry was concerned? Looks like sheer desperation to me and Nelsen appears to have been set up as a patsy to take the fall by Payne rather than there being any great expectation that he'll actually get the job done, but whatever, wake me up when you start behaving like a soccer/football club rather than an out of control marketing focus group run by hockey fans and get somebody like Preki in again and actually give him the support to do what needs to be done even if it means short term pain on the ticket sales front.

[Soju]

^Good read, thanks.

[El Hombre]

Brockie's loan has ended and he's headed home. If only Nelsen had given him a proper chance to show what he could do....

[/sARCASM]

[ag futbol]

Brockie's loan has ended and he's headed home. If only Nelsen had given him a proper chance to show what he could do....

[/sARCASM]

I totally get the sarcasm. We played the guy until we were blue in the face and he produced practically nothing.

But I have to wonder if part of the problem is that Nelsen is too rigid with his tactics. Watcing Brockie in the A league he struck me as more of a wide forward than a striker. He doesn't look comfortable playing in the hole, holding the ball up or doing things like that. Other than the odd nice touch to play on another TFC player he just sucked in that role.

We'll probably never get to find out (at least I hope not, I don't want him back), but I wonder if he'd be like another Luis Silva, which seems to be an example of a player with skills that were never properly utilized by TFC.

[Joe Keeper]

I totally get the sarcasm. We played the guy until we were blue in the face and he produced practically nothing.

But I have to wonder if part of the problem is that Nelsen is too rigid with his tactics. Watcing Brockie in the A league he struck me as more of a wide forward than a striker. He doesn't look comfortable playing in the hole, holding the ball up or doing things like that. Other than the odd nice touch to play on another TFC player he just sucked in that role.

We'll probably never get to find out (at least I hope not, I don't want him back), but I wonder if he'd be like another Luis Silva, which seems to be an example of a player with skills that were never properly utilized by TFC.

With Nelson, whom worriers me more and more as this season has worn on, I dont think that it is a case of tactical rigidity. That, to me, was more Aron Winters problem and it cost him his job rightfully so. In Nelson's case I would describe his problem as a case of absolute tactical nativity. Nelson's subs for most of this season have been baffling at best and the last game against DC shows that. The man's absolute inexperience has really shown through, which makes his hire a shambles, so far. We needed a proven coach and we got a novice who should have been brought on board as an assistant first. Nelson has no idea of how to adjust a formation during games or when preparing for them. The team right now is not so much being coached as supervised. Notice how Nelson in his pressers makes almost no references to what he could do better, or to specific methods for working with players or the team to teach them and help them improve by learning from his experience or training as a coach. Nelson's only answer for "improving" the team is to either hold them by the hand and coddle them, or to simply throw them under the bus post game with out taking any personal responsibility. Nelson's speaks of improving the team by continually adding new players, which we do need, but he never speaks of coaching or improving the team that we have.

If he cant actually coach players as individuals or groups, how can Nelson be expected to properly choose and enforce tactics? It seems whenever TFC are playing like ****e, the same kinds of tactical problems are occurring: lack of marking or not closing down players runs, dribbling or shots; the midfield seems to disappear and either looses all shape or completely collapses on top of the defense. Sometimes I feel like I am watching the team play an 8-1-1 formation. Nelson can only blame the players so much for this. A coaches job is to make sure the team keeps its discipline and shape during a game. TFC seem to drift in and out of being organized and not. There is no consistency. Nelson claims to be playing a "zonal marking" system which is why some people think he is just too rigid. This is where I think it is more supreme inadequacy on Nelson's part because he does not even enforce the team to play that type of system regularily or for entire games. There is more to it than that.

The team has definitely started to do the simple things right in defense, finally, like clearing the ball and working together a bit more. The D still needs a lot of work, but now, Nelson needs to start doing the simple things better in midfield and tactically. The problem is our coach needs a bloody coach and Fran O'leary or Payne is not that guy.

I hate to say it but unless Nelson is sent for some certification in the off season, I can see us floundering again next season. Inexplicably Nelson was hired to "grow with the team". That to me is a bloody case of the blind leading the blind. Where else in the world at a professional club is a novice coach brought in to "grow" with the first team? Would that strategy even cut it with a youth team? A coach needs to be able to be above his team, teach them, and work to grow them. Coaches can "grow with a team" from a personal or philosophical stand point but they have to base all of that off of a solid, proven and earned amount of experience before they can lead a first team.

I know we need "stability" at this club, but I don't think we will have it with Nelson or any other person whom is too rigid or too inexperienced. I for one wish he would be shown the door at the end of the of the season. TFC will not get stability by blindly sticking with the same person just for the sake of NOT changing. Stability will come when we get a proper experienced and professional coach. To me, TFC has not ever had a real coach and certainly never one that this club and fans deserve.

[Michael Crampton]

To me, TFC has not ever had a real coach and certainly never one that this club and fans deserve.

I'm never sure what TFC fans deserve but as to the bolded:

Preki.

And Paul Mariner had paid his dues, was long considered the next MLS assistant to get a head coaching job, and would have been a perfectly acceptable hire in 2008 if they'd had the ability to see what was going on and can Mo and Carver during the long summer winless streak after losing the inaugural V-Cup.

Edit: Very good post though and I'm only picking out one small bit I disagree with. The only thing I'd add is that I think the greater concern with Nelsen isn't him per se. Like you explain he doesn't, and practically couldn't, have the experience necessary to be a coach who can improve the team above their "natural" state. It's a massive gamble that he'll develop that at all or before fans and management get too fed up with waiting to see if it'll happen.

The bigger problem than Nelsen is what it suggests about the person who'd make the decision to hire him. THAT has been the point some folks have been banging on about since January.

[Gian-Luca]

Preki.

And Paul Mariner had paid his dues, was long considered the next MLS assistant to get a head coaching job, and would have been a perfectly acceptable hire in 2008

Based on what I saw last season, Paul Mariner never would have been a perfectly acceptable hire at any time for the head coaching job.

Signed,

Joao Plata

[ag futbol]

^ Yeah, both Preki and Mariner had HUGE question-marks next to their name if TFC had actually bothered to go out and do their diligence. Better profiles than the rest? Sure. But lest than the A-list hire we've been asking for since god knows when.

With Nelson, whom worriers me more and more as this season has worn on, I dont think that it is a case of tactical rigidity.

He's basically been married to that flat 4-4-2 formation all season. He tweaks it to be more or less defensive, but never really gets too far away from it. But what really bothers me, which i was getting at by rigidity, is that he gives players these very focused roles that make the attack stale and predictable. The wingers are told to cross, the strikers attack the box... there is no dynamic movement out there. Modern football doesn't operate this way, it's far too mechanical and easy to defend.

I hate to say it but unless Nelson is sent for some certification in the off season, I can see us floundering again next season. Inexplicably Nelson was hired to "grow with the team". That to me is a bloody case of the blind leading the blind. Where else in the world at a professional club is a novice coach brought in to "grow" with the first team? Would that strategy even cut it with a youth team? A coach needs to be able to be above his team, teach them, and work to grow them. Coaches can "grow with a team" from a personal or philosophical stand point but they have to base all of that off of a solid, proven and earned amount of experience before they can lead a first team.

Well the argument can be made that bad teams with no other options have no choice but to rely on rookie candidates or really poor ones. The raptors with their half-assed attempts at winning have done the same thing for years.

Now that being said, in the grand picture of MLS TFC could have done far better. The issue is Kevin Payne doesn't like his authority challenged and prefers to work with rookie coaches.

[kyam]

It seems whenever TFC are playing like ****e, the same kinds of tactical problems are occurring: lack of marking or not closing down players runs, dribbling or shots; the midfield seems to disappear and either looses all shape or completely collapses on top of the defense. Sometimes I feel like I am watching the team play an 8-1-1 formation.

I don't disagree with you, I think you bring up some valid points about Nelson's coaching style.

But these problems you have identified, mainly, TFC's lack of discipline in keeping there shape, have been on-going problems that no coach has been able to solve. Even Winters, with his rigid style had a difficult time getting TFC to hold their shape. At times, Winters 4-3-3 formation looked like like a 9-1-0 formation.

For a short period (spanning 4-5 matches), Preki was able to get TFC to hold their shape, but then again Preki was all about defence first. Not hard to hold your shape when the intention is to have 4 defenders, and 2 or 3 midfields dropping way back everytime the opponent attacks.

[Keegan]

At this point it's just about riding out the storm and giving minutes to the players that will actually be around next season. The talk of any firings needs to just stop, we knew this season was going to be a failure and with a much weaker starting roster at the beginning of the season than 2012 possibly even worse. I think the "team" has been more organized this season and for that I can't really fault Nelsen but I can fault him for bringing in Brockie on loan as a band aid and gluing our two first round picks to the bench, picks THEY stood behind. Montreal is getting production out of Blake Smith, Colorado has two productive rookies, Farrell has been good so wtf is going on here. Bekker looked good against Mexico, a team collectively more talented than any MLS team and yet Nelsen has stuck to his "guns". That is what frustrates me most, the record doesn't surprise me but he's seemingly ignorant of the need to put the foundation in place as he's scared of losing his job.

Toronto media really needs to just STFU and relax. They call for a nothing season, the season has been nothing and they go into full panic mode. Bunch of clowns.

[Mr.Impact]

Problem with Nelsen, is that he needs better assistants, than some old guy who coached at some obscure US colleges. Getting rid of Luis Silva is just dumb. Otherwise, I agree that if this was pretty much a lame duck season, than yeah they should be playing their first round picks regularly.

[Yohan]

Problem with Nelsen, is that he needs better assistants, than some old guy who coached at some obscure US colleges. Getting rid of Luis Silva is just dumb. Otherwise, I agree that if this was pretty much a lame duck season, than yeah they should be playing their first round picks regularly.

this doesn't seem to hamper New England from putting out a competitive team. (and year 1 of Jay Heaps era was pretty ugly in New England)

[nolando]

Nelson talks about Bekker in detail and outlines his plan to send many of the younger players off on loan overseas during the MLS off-season:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2013/08/30/ryan-nelsen-planning-send-young-toronto-fc-players-offseason-loans-help-hard