Toronto FC changes for 2013

[Gian-Luca]

Remember that Payne was hired before Lewieke! It's not like Lewieke hired him.

Yeah, I know, but I still expected that they'd give him more than 9 months & at least a full season to see what he could do, given the abysmal starting point he inherited. They really need to make sure the revolving door is broken from now on.

[Grizzly]

The Circus Continues

[ob1]

Remember that Payne was hired before Lewieke! It's not like Lewieke hired him.

Lewieke is going to bring his own guys that fits his vision for this team. We have seen that with Raptors and we're going to see the same with TFC. Except Lewieke to clean house in TFC FO now. Nelsen will probably be gone next season if we don't see results.

I really don't think that is the point. Not a very good one from TFC and/or Leiweke anyway. They finally had a good knowledgeable soccer and MLS guy on their staff and after 9 months let him go. WTF. The last thing this team needed was more instability.

TFC/MLS is schizophrenic plain and simple.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Remember that Payne was hired before Lewieke! It's not like Lewieke hired him.

Hopefully it's a case of the Anselmi era now drawing to a close, but there is the question of whether they already had Lewieke lined up to take the job and Payne was hired on his recommendation. I suspect it's probably the former.

Re: Nicol and Mariner: is it unreasonable that they, Clough/Taylor-like, worked best as a team? Nicol had some declining years around the time Mariner left. Was Nicol the tactics and budget guy who "managed", while Mariner was the motivator "player's friend" coach part of the team? He was pretty well liked personally when he left from what I gathered.

My impression from the outside looking in is that Paul Mariner fits the mould of the type of English soccer coach, who has never really moved beyond Sir Alf Ramsay's 4-4-2 tactics that won England the 1966 World Cup (along with the dodgy advice to the referee by the Soviet linesman). For a lot of people in England that subsequently became the undisputed manner in which the game ought to be played and that mentality had a strong grip on the CSA for a very long time, with damaging effects given it's not necessarily the best way to get a result when playing an away game in the Caribbean or Central America. People like Earl Cochrane were part of that 4-4-2 with athleticism emphasized over technique sort of culture, which is why Winter's signing of Plata would have seemed absolutely bizarre to them.

There were a few clubs in the UK that even back in the 80s, before the later invasion of non-British managers, were a lot more innovative than that in terms of their approach and were able to keep on the cutting edge in tactics terms along with the best that the European continent had to offer. Prime examples would be Liverpool in England (where Nicol spent most of his career, the focus there was on forming triangles all over the pitch and maintaining possession rather than hoofing a long ball up the field, although strangely Bill Shankly and Bob Paisley never seem to rate a mention when the origins of "Tiki-Taka" are discussed), and in Scotland there were Dundee United (have seen it argued convincingly that they were using modern 4-5-1 style of tactics almost 30 years ago) and Aberdeen (under Sir Alex Ferguson, who like Dundee United were a Scottish club but played a more continental possession oriented sort of style rather than stereotypical blood and thunder stuff). I think the Revolution under the Nicol/Mariner very much fitted into the latter more innovative legacy of 80s British football and I'd be willing to wager a hefty sum that it was Nicol (who in addition to playing for Liverpool would have interacted with Jim McLean of Dundee United and Sir Alex Ferguson through their involvement with Scotland's national teams in the mid-80s) rather than Mariner that was the driving force on that in tactics terms and Mariner as you suggest was best at the Peter Taylor role.

Edit: According to CSN Cochrane and Onstad are out as well:

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?4939-REPORT-Cochrane-Onstad-out

That fits with the Anselmi era finally being over. Cochrane seemed to fit into the MLSE corporate culture where Anselmi was concerned. Personally think he should have been shown the door at the same time Dasovic left, because he was never likely to be fully on board under any new regime after that. The list of players he had lined up during his brief period of effective control at the GM level (that Winter had to subsequently quickly dispense with) was bizarre.

[jpg75]

Wow. All i can think of right now is that chant "you don't know what you're doing!" over and over and over and over....

[narduch]

Cochrane out is a good step as well. Hopefully Paul Beirne will follow soon too.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Paul Beirne always seemed like an honest guy trying to do a professional job any times I had dealings with him. The only question mark with him is if the bleed them dry approach to ticket pricing was down to him or Anselmi. That was a major miscalculation on somebody's part but I think it was probably determined above Beirne's pay grade. Beyond that I wouldn't hold the soccer side of the operations against him, because that's not what his job was at any point as far as I'm aware. He did the tickets side of things and dealing with the fans and corporate boc types, while Cochrane was more the day to day operations related to the team.

[narduch]

Every part of the operation matters. And Paul Beirne always came across as an arrogant ass. Getting rid of him is a sign that they are serious about changing the culture of the front office, in my opinion.

[shamrock]

I really don't think that is the point. Not a very good one from TFC and/or Leiweke anyway. They finally had a good knowledgeable soccer and MLS guy on their staff and after 9 months let him go. WTF. The last thing this team needed was more instability.

TFC/MLS is schizophrenic plain and simple.

Hear hear!

[TFC07]

I really don't think that is the point. Not a very good one from TFC and/or Leiweke anyway. They finally had a good knowledgeable soccer and MLS guy on their staff and after 9 months let him go. WTF. The last thing this team needed was more instability.

TFC/MLS is schizophrenic plain and simple.

Kevin Payne failed to deliver in summer widow despite being knowledgeable guy. That's what cost him and his job in the end.

[Trillium]

The Circus Continues

[ATTACH=CONFIG]995[/ATTACH]

Geez that TIFO never goes out of style does it .... good on TFC to get late season media coverage to help get the punters into the stadium for the last few kegs of beer and the CNE left over Cronuts.

[Mr.Impact]

Payne talked a big game, but delivered nothing. The joke here was hiring a GM, before finding a president for MLSE. Sombody is going to be selling used cars.

Payne fell into the same pattern that bedeviled previous regimes — falling in love with a small group of unattainable targets, then refusing to consider anyone not on his own wish list.

At one point, an influential Serie A executive was pulled in on an ad-hoc basis to suggest potential recruits. He provided a shortlist of Italian pros he thought could be lured to MLS, including several internationally capped players.

Payne later said he couldn’t make any headway on the Italian question.

The Italian executive told his Toronto counterparts a slightly different story — that Payne had told him that the names had all been vetoed because of cost. This, despite the Toronto FC had been given a $25 million war chest by the MLSE board to buy and pay new arrivals. The bulk of that money remains unspent.

As Payne’s search for players foundered, his rookie coach’s frustration was growing. Well aware that Payne had taken a flier on him, Nelsen was loath to complain. But eventually, deflated by the lack of urgency in improving the squad, the New Zealander began losing faith

http://www.thestar.com/sports/tfc/2013/09/04/toronto_fc_parts_ways_with_presidentgm_kevin_payne_kelly.html

[narduch]

The joke here was hiring a GM, before finding a president for MLSE. Sombody is going to be selling used cars.

This seems to always be the case at MLSE. And it will continue with the new GM, who didn't hire the current coach. And its the same thing with the Raptors.

Its an endless cycle.

[Ivan]

Payne's recipe for success was flawed. Over promise, under deliver.

[xcalibre]

Payne's recipe for success was flawed. Over promise, under deliver.

someone's been reading Jason de Vos' tweets?

[Ivan]

someone's been reading Jason de Vos' tweets?

Actually ......no. Did Jason read my post? : )

[canadianfoot]

Well Listened to a few different shows today and Frank Yallop was mentioned to replace Nelson at seasons end. Anyone thinks TFC will end up with new coach as well?

[narduch]

Well Listened to a few different shows today and Frank Yallop was mentioned to replace Nelson at seasons end. Anyone thinks TFC will end up with new coach as well?

I think there is a very good chance there will be a new coach, selected by the new GM.

[AvroArrow]

Hi Ryan Nelson, please retire from the Premier League so that you can become our new coach. We'll fire you less than a year later, but you'll have a grand old time for the brief period that you're here.

[xcalibre]

Could Yallop be a technical director/DoF/GM type while Nelsen does coaching? I know they would inevitably clash, but maybe Yallop's time as a man-manager is passed and Nelsen could do the daily grind of training?

[munseahawk]

The Anselmi era is officially over with TFC. He's out the door as well, being reported as stepping down. I guess walking out before being sacked looks better.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=431277

[DJT]

A conference call with Leiweke was just live on GolTV.

He says Nelsen will stay on in 2014 since Nelsen's "philosophy" is consistent with Leiweke's. Leiweke admits to the irony of Payne's philosophy being inconsistent with that of the coach who Payne himself hired.

Cochrane is out, Onstad is not but his future role will depend on the new GM.

Leiweke also promises "marquee" DPs in January, even if they may not come until after the World Cup. He and Nelsen are in agreement about which players/types of players to get.

In an offer of faith to fans, TFC will take season seat reservations now but will not require payment until January.

[ag futbol]

Hi Ryan Nelson, please retire from the Premier League so that you can become our new coach. We'll fire you less than a year later, but you'll have a grand old time for the brief period that you're here.

You know those deals that are too good to be true? Well just like products you purchase at the store, employment contracts come with "buyer beware" stamped on them all the time as well. Fact is, whether Kevin Payne wanted to admit it or not, Ryan Nelsen was (still is) dangerously under qualified. If Nelsen didn't realize that coming into this very difficult situation, he has nobody to blame but himself. It was a risk of accepting the job and his performance on the job only increases the risk he gets sent home.

It's not TFC's problem whether Ryan Nelsen has continuous employment or not.

[Mr.Impact]

A conference call with Leiweke was just live on GolTV.

He says Nelsen will stay on in 2014 since Nelsen's "philosophy" is consistent with Leiweke's. Leiweke admits to the irony of Payne's philosophy being inconsistent with that of the coach who Payne himself hired.

Cochrane is out, Onstad is not but his future role will depend on the new GM.

Leiweke also promises "marquee" DPs in January, even if they may not come until after the World Cup. He and Nelsen are in agreement about which players/types of players to get.

In an offer of faith to fans, TFC will take season seat reservations now but will not require payment until January.

"marquee" DPs with Nelsen as the coach ... Good luck with that combo.

[Ivan]

"marquee" DPs with Nelsen as the coach ... Good luck with that combo.

Curious why you would say that. Do you think Nelsen has no respect amongst professionals?