GDT - Armenia v. Canada [R]

[Gian-Luca]

romurra aka David Carmichael

Wow! Hey, welcome back!

[Free kick]

I enjoy a possession game, and it pays at times to stick to your guns but I have massive doubts about us having the players and training we need to implement the style we want. The backpasses and things are proof of it.

y...

yes. is what i was going to get to. I am good with Mckenna back there. He has always been steady and reliable every time i have seen him play for the past 12 years. I can live with certain lack of mobility from his part and/or a reduced degree technical efficiency. So to me, he starts in central defense come world cup qualifying.

But the rest of the back line, I am not crazy about and the reason is precisely for what you mentioned, namely, an inability to play the ball out and forward with some quality and effective distribution. Without that, we cant construct, sustain possession, and have a good buildup to create scoring chances. Way way too many lateral and back passes, not enough confidence on the ball and not enough athleticism

Edgar, I have never been a fan of his precisely for this reason. Even going back to the U20 days. Not strong enough on the ball nor technically solid and doesn't pass well. We already have Mckenna back there who is of the same makeup but is much better and reliable at what he does and is a commanding presence with experience and leadership. We needs someone more comfortable on the ball than Edgar, to be paired with McKenna. I see no other choice than Hainault.

Klukowski, I followed his career closely since his days at Lille as academy product. He got some very good very good reviews at the time and had some promise. But i recall a feature article in French written about him ten years ago when he had just started his pro career at La Louviere. I posted it and translated here. The piece went to great length about his game, his background and his career. The interviewer asked him about his transition to left back position and whether he preferred central D. His response was along the lines that he was happy for the opportunity to play on the outside but that he really saw himself and preferred the central defense role or central role in the long term. And if you look at his stature and build, you can see why. Someone in Europe decided to convert him to to half back and that might be why he never progressed to better clubs and leagues. At the highest levels of the game, you need more agility and versatility from that role and he is not build for that unless its in a second division club or secondary league. He played defensive midfield in Victoria and Argentina for our U 20. Right now, were it not for the concern over lack of experience, i would have no doubt that Morgan should be starting in that role in WCQ. He is more built for that role. And, i think that the door is now a little more opened up for him. We need players who can better support the attack at the half back positions and still be defensively reliable.

Strait. Is not playing at high enough level IMO. and i have not seen anything of note from him.

[Gian-Luca]

Just watched the game on tape delay, the last 10 minutes without sound as I couldn't take Gerry & Craig any longer. Everything is either "Canada's domimating" or "Canada's complete crap" when Dobson calls a game, there seems to be no middle ground, no nuances, no shades of grey, etc. They were making it sound like Armenia had about 95% possession or something that we were played off the park. Too many individual mistakes from a rusty team (always a case with this Feb. friendlies played after just one practice together in the previous four months and some players like Atiba not really properly game-fit - though some of the individual mistakes from the likes of Klukowski can't be so easily dismissed - hopefully he was just having a rotten day and this is not the start of a downward trend for him), but the team was nowhere near as bad as they were making it out to be. Frankly, this was a pretty even game until the turning point mid-way through the 2nd half, which was Canada not being awarded a 100% free kick on the edge of the box, which was not only an obvious foul, but actually a 2nd yellow and therefore a sending off. A minute later Armenia scores the winning goal. After that it seemed to go fairly downhill for us and the lack of cohesion started to show somewhat.

My only other comment is to agree that I too would like Hart to shake things up a bit and try something different, particularly in these friendlies to see what works, which might just be starting two strikers for once (or using two for most of the game, not just the last 10 minutes. That's what these friendlies should be used for. As it is, the only real experiment seemed to be using Ledgerwood in central midfield, which isn't exactly going to get top marks for cutting edge creativity.

[CanadasBest]

I'm dumbfounded by this performance. I think this might have been one of the worst performances I have ever seen by Canada. Armenia was going to be a tough match. Only the US and Mexico in CONCACAF are ranked higher than Armenia. But the individual performances were crap.

We did not want to win today. There was no passion, there was no heart, and there certainly is zero leadership on this team.

[ditty]

I think in any context, this was a poor performance. I don't think we were set up well against this opponent and then there were many poor individual performances.

I think in this match, Hutch should clearly have been playing in the holding spot with JDG. We needed everything he offers in that spot; ball winning, passing, mobility getting forward. Those qualities in the holding spot were going to mean more to us than what he might offer in an attacking spot. From the start I thought he wouldn't have enough influence on the game playing where Hart put him today. Also, I think one of our attacking players on the bench today would be a better fit for this game in the front 4 than Legerwood was in the holding spot. I was interested to see how'd he look in the spot he plays week in and week out in but I still think his level of play is just overall below this level.

Tos Ricketts is a work in progress and he does add something to this team. But, unless he is given the space and service to go at defenders out wide, he isn't a guy who's going to keep possession and combine to break teams down. Today was Exhibit A. He had 2 or 3 good runs down the right side, then Armenia wised up, cut off his service and space, and, like Simpson as well to be fair, he wasn't a factor. I still see his role as an effective sub where his qualities make the biggest difference late in games. None of our attacking players were a factor but his lack of technique was exposed. Someone mentioned earlier than Ricketts has more skill than Occean. I think this game proved the opposite.

If we're going to play a lone striker, and that guy is gonna be as isolated as Jackson was today, we are much better off throwing a Haber or a Friend up there since most of our danger came from set pieces. For a 4-2-3-1 to work, you need possession and you need a back four, particularly the wide players, who can hit an early ball to feet. Those FBs also need to get forward and there was none of that today. I really thought Hart needed to change his tactics in this regard at halftime but he didn't.

This was only one game, a one-off with no real camp before or after. But it was a poor performance and I will disagree with Gian-luca and say I felt we were well and truly played off the park today. We scored our goal on a well taken corner, though a free header by a guy who come WCQ again, will be wearing several Central Americans in these situations. Nobody in CONCACAF is going to let Kevin McKenna get a free header from a corner. I think we started brightly largely because our opponent seemed to have done zero scouting on us. After 15 minutes, they sorted it out and I think a 4-0 or a 5-1 scoreline would have been just. I was surprised because some of these Euro friendlies against similar stature or better opponents have brought some of our best stuff, i.e. vs Ukraine, Greece, etc.

[ditty]

I am a tried and tested supporter of our Soccer program; however, losing to Armenia offers little to be happy about. They are one of the minnows of UEFA and i actually find it embarrassing that we were beaten so convincingly.

Well, you're the only person I've seen or heard today not singing the praises of Armenia and talking up their Euro qualifying run. I don't know if you watched the match, but based on today, I can understand why they finished ahead of Slovakia (who made the knock out stages of the last WC) and pushed Ireland and Russia all the way. They looked the part.

[Keegan]

Great point about Hutch not being in the holding spot killing us. We need Hutchinson in that holding spot no question, there were so many times when I wished he was there yesterday.

[ray]

Firstly, I'll say I thought Canada did the best they could resisting Armenia and not giving away too many chances. Ricketts looked good in the first half and his speed may offer a useful option on the right side.

Secondly, this is not nearly enough at this level. Canada lack the skills to keep possession when faced with pressure on the ball. Armenia gave them a lesson on how to work the give-and-go and making quick decisions as they easily ran through Canada. I was left with a sense of foreboding of what is to come this summer: Canada being run ragged, but this time in conditions of heat and humidity that aren't conducive to running. Without the ball we can't use the likes of Simpson and Ricketts, and it doesn't matter whether it is Jackson, Friend or someone else up front.

This was a pretty good Canadian side we put out. The insertion of the North American based players is not going to make a great deal of difference. JDG2 and even Hoilett Jr. can only do so much when we give away possession and can't get it back.

Realistically I think we were always looking at 2018 and beyond and this loss emphasizes it.

[Califax]

Well, you're the only person I've seen or heard today not singing the praises of Armenia and talking up their Euro qualifying run. I don't know if you watched the match, but based on today, I can understand why they finished ahead of Slovakia (who made the knock out stages of the last WC) and pushed Ireland and Russia all the way. They looked the part.

+1

[redhat]

My only other comment is to agree that I too would like Hart to shake things up a bit and try something different, particularly in these friendlies to see what works, which might just be starting two strikers for once (or using two for most of the game, not just the last 10 minutes. That's what these friendlies should be used for. As it is, the only real experiment seemed to be using Ledgerwood in central midfield, which isn't exactly going to get top marks for cutting edge creativity.

Unfortunately I don't think Hart is capable of doing that. And I'm trying to be positive about the first 10 minutes, and accepted the excuses about the rain, lack of practice times, lack of available players, off-games for Klukowski, etc. etc. I didn't think the match was THAT bad, but if we should have realistic expectations, the current team needs a lot of improvement to say the least.

[Ruud]

I think the consensus is that we don't have the coaching to bring this team together. Hart has done his best, but since 2007 I don't think we've ever been satisfied with the way this team has taken shape. I like Hart, but we NEED a coach to figure out how to beat teams, not just get the players to show up for Canada. It seems like Hart is around because he's convinced the lads to show.

I'd have some guys on speed dial - Boris, some US coaches (where is Arena?), Hiddink (unlikely), Gullit (possibly) - maybe Aaron Winter can pull some strings for us.

Look, we can criticise the guys all we want for the performance on the pitch, but their qualities are what they are. If there was someone better to bring in besides Edgar, please let us know. Some for most of the others. But it is time that we get a coach that can maximize our talents - play like NZ or something, which was good enough to get them past Oceania and a playoff.

I see Hart's firing (assuming we have someone waiting in the wings) as the next and only possible solution.

[JOGAKANATA]

Canadas problem is the team has a low balance of technical ability and athleticism. Alot guys are to slow and alot can't play a proper pass.

[romurra]

Wow! Hey, welcome back!

Thanks, Gianluca...still read the boards regularly but rarely post. Canada has the potential of improving the way Australia and Japan have the past 20 years but it's going to take a complete overhaul of the CSA, higher level coaching across the system, developing better players, better funding sources and much more time and effort for these changes to actually happen.

At best, this current squad under Stephen Hart may make it to the Hex but without past/future defectors such as Junior Hoillet, Jonathan deGuzman and an improvement in coaching, tactics and player selection I really don't see this team getting anywhere near the World Cup.

I'd love to see Canada get there but this current squad doesn't give me any confidence that they will...quite bluntly, they just aren't good enough and need about 3 or 4 other teams above them ie. Honduras, Costa Rica, Jamaica and even Panama to stink up the joint for them to have a chance of getting to Brazil. If somehow things turn around and this team gels, you will not find a happier Canadian fan. :-)

[Yohan]

Unfortunately I don't think Hart is capable of doing that. And I'm trying to be positive about the first 10 minutes, and accepted the excuses about the rain, lack of practice times, lack of available players, off-games for Klukowski, etc. etc. I didn't think the match was THAT bad, but if we should have realistic expectations, the current team needs a lot of improvement to say the least.

Hart just does not motivate the team well enough, nor does he instill mental toughness.

I get that the weather sucked really bad and it's hard to concentrate when you're getting pelted in the face by some strong rain, but one team, Armenia, battle through the weather while Canada just folded.

[Gian-Luca]

Unfortunately I don't think Hart is capable of doing that. And I'm trying to be positive about the first 10 minutes, and accepted the excuses about the rain, lack of practice times, lack of available players, off-games for Klukowski, etc. etc. I didn't think the match was THAT bad, but if we should have realistic expectations, the current team needs a lot of improvement to say the least.

I wouldn't accept the excuse about the rain personally. The off-game for Klukowski isn't so much an "excuse" but simply a fact that I doubt even he would disagree with, and he is part of the team we put out there. He gave away the penalty and gave away the ball that led to dangerous scoring chances which could have made it worse. The winning goal was also scored from a corner that had resulted by a give-away by Hutchinson. In both cases the players had off-days (moreso Klukowski than Atiba, and of the two, Atiba we can probably write off as an aberration caused by barely having played recently, whereas hopefully this was just a bad day period for Klukowski, as we've never seen him play anywhere near that poorly). In my view, most of Armenia's goals and good chances came from our sloppy giveaways, rather than their brilliant play, and most of that came from one player. I don't want to drag his name through the mud anymore, but I'm less concerned about that (if he continues to play like that again we will simply see another player selected - De Jong, Morgan, Jazic etc.) than I am about not creating all that many chances, that's why I'd like us to try some experimenting here to see if something else will click offensively.

[The Beaver]

Not much more to add, but I must admit I am a bit perplexed by all those hunting for Hart's head. I am not saying he is a brilliant tactician or anything--he ain't!--and I quite applaud the idea of injecting some imagination into what we are doing, but on this day, and perhaps on every day, the core problem we face is that we don't have the horses to play brilliant, effective football. Or, if we do, then those lads yesterday have got some splaining to do. Armenia made one major shift in tactics, and it was not genius by any stretch. As soon as they could see that we were determined to give the ball away cheaply, and often, they decided to apply pressure. Come the second half they would push three guys up to put direct pressure on our defensive line. Now, if we could pass effectively out of the back line AND if our midfielders and strikers could receive such a pass without coughing it up easily, then we could have made them pay for such a tactic. We could have exposed them, killed them on the counter.

We've been slamming the defensive line, and they were mostly poor, but our midfield was giving up the ball FIRST, and I wonder if Kluka's abysmal performance had something do with being frustrated at having to deal with Armenian attacks caused by give-aways in our midfield. Seems lame, but I wonder. (Mind you, he was really terrible. So weird from him.) DeGuzman was pretty good, to be fair. Hutch was awful. At times he was a liability. It was painful. Simpson never really got into the game, but he was not great.

Movement off the ball in the first 20 minutes was pretty darn good. Then we started getting lazy, and gave the ball away, and then they seized on our weakness and made us pay. Like G-L said, most of their chances came from our give-aways.

We got some work to do. If we can learn from this loss--and there was plenty to take away--then we will be stronger next game. In my mind, THAT will be the real test for Hart. Can he learn from this sort of game--when there is so much to learn from it--and make improvements next go around?

God help us.

[Wingback6]

yes. is what i was going to get to. I am good with Mckenna back there. He has always been steady and reliable every time i have seen him play for the past 12 years. I can live with certain lack of mobility from his part and/or a reduced degree technical efficiency. So to me, he starts in central defense come world cup qualifying.

But the rest of the back line, I am not crazy about and the reason is precisely for what you mentioned, namely, an inability to play the ball out and forward with some quality and effective distribution. Without that, we cant construct, sustain possession, and have a good buildup to create scoring chances. Way way too many lateral and back passes, not enough confidence on the ball and not enough athleticism

Edgar, I have never been a fan of his precisely for this reason. Even going back to the U20 days. Not strong enough on the ball nor technically solid and doesn't pass well. We already have Mckenna back there who is of the same makeup but is much better and reliable at what he does and is a commanding presence with experience and leadership. We needs someone more comfortable on the ball than Edgar, to be paired with McKenna. I see no other choice than Hainault.

Klukowski, I followed his career closely since his days at Lille as academy product. He got some very good very good reviews at the time and had some promise. But i recall a feature article in French written about him ten years ago when he had just started his pro career at La Louviere. I posted it and translated here. The piece went to great length about his game, his background and his career. The interviewer asked him about his transition to left back position and whether he preferred central D. His response was along the lines that he was happy for the opportunity to play on the outside but that he really saw himself and preferred the central defense role or central role in the long term. And if you look at his stature and build, you can see why. Someone in Europe decided to convert him to to half back and that might be why he never progressed to better clubs and leagues. At the highest levels of the game, you need more agility and versatility from that role and he is not build for that unless its in a second division club or secondary league. He played defensive midfield in Victoria and Argentina for our U 20. Right now, were it not for the concern over lack of experience, i would have no doubt that Morgan should be starting in that role in WCQ. He is more built for that role. And, i think that the door is now a little more opened up for him. We need players who can better support the attack at the half back positions and still be defensively reliable.

Strait. Is not playing at high enough level IMO. and i have not seen anything of note from him.

Nice to see someone else focus on the CB to FB switch here... basically.. .I missed the game (working) but playing with essentially 4 CB's and a centre midfield that is as weak as ours... can we really be surprised by the result???

I noticed people mentioning we left our strikers isolated... wouldn't happen if we had proper fullbacks to overlap... and I have a suspicion that Kluk might have looked poor because the majority of the flank play had to come from his side... as it must have been either Straith or Edgar at RB and they aren't exactly wingers... but this is guess work ofcourse.

[ThiKu]

@The Beaver - I don't think the players got "lazy" I think Armenia just started playing to their capabilities. Keep in mind they had an excellent Euro qualifying tournament. Armenia was a bit better than I thought....but not by much. Though I did predict a tie - couldn't have guessed Kluka would play as poor as he did nor the CM.

[The Ref]

I think it is time we get a reputable, experienced and high profile coach for our men's team. Otherwise the question of is it the coach or is it the players, will go on and on.

[BearcatSA]

I watched the game with the sound off for almost the entire match. After a bright start, with Ricketts looking dangerous on the right, the Aremians got back into the match and in the end were clearly the better team with much of the momentum. We began to struggle defensively in closing guys down in dangerous areas, as evidenced by the first goal but also in coping with their midfield build up play as the game progressed. Don't know how an off the pace Hutchinson would have been any better in the holding role, but I guess I'll just leave that argument at that.

[adrenaline11]

[guppy]

I've said this elsewhere, and I think others have said it, essentially, but basically I see it as they are a step behind .. that's why all the back passing and unable to link with the forwards; soon as they try moving the ball out of their half they come under pressure and they can't stay a step ahead of it: a player receives the ball and is under pressure before he has decided what to do with it. So he ends up hurrying to get rid of it. Maybe with a better lineup they can cope better with pressure ... I don't know. Probably better than the Armenia game. But I believe this is the whole story. Whether they can somehow get a bit more time to make plays .. this is part talent, sure, but I can't help but think these players could have a better idea what they are going to do before they have to do it or be in better places on the field, so they have another split second to do something with the ball that isn't panic-driven.

[VAddona]

I've said this elsewhere, and I think others have said it, essentially, but basically I see it as they are a step behind .. that's why all the back passing and unable to link with the forwards; soon as they try moving the ball out of their half they come under pressure and they can't stay a step ahead of it: a player receives the ball and is under pressure before he has decided what to do with it. So he ends up hurrying to get rid of it. Maybe with a better lineup they can cope better with pressure ... I don't know. Probably better than the Armenia game. But I believe this is the whole story. Whether they can somehow get a bit more time to make plays .. this is part talent, sure, but I can't help but think these players could have a better idea what they are going to do before they have to do it or be in better places on the field, so they have another split second to do something with the ball that isn't panic-driven.

+1; I think this is all exactly right on.

[The Beaver]

@The Beaver - I don't think the players got "lazy" I think Armenia just started playing to their capabilities. Keep in mind they had an excellent Euro qualifying tournament. Armenia was a bit better than I thought....but not by much. Though I did predict a tie - couldn't have guessed Kluka would play as poor as he did nor the CM.

No, you're right: lazy is not the right word. They became "complacent", or at least that is how it seemed to me. To be clear, we started giving the ball away cheaply BEFORE they started applying the significant pressure we saw from then in the second half.

[Ruud]

I don't disagree with the analogy of being a step behind - but given that reality, you have to be that much better in tactics to beat your opponent.

The fact is that being one step behind is the reality for many teams - Australia, US, NZ, England (against much better opponents). The tactics have to fit the team. And if we play a finesse on the ground game, we need to be able to move the ball like the dutch, and find ways of breaking down teams, or beating off side traps and cross-overs etc. There was none of that the other day. How often did our defenders make cross-overs?

The linking up from defense to midfield was fine - if there is pressure on the mids (which there was), then a few long balls over the top should push them back. Something has to give. If we don't have the mids to work around the pressure, then they need to release more quickly to forwards, or the wing-backs have to join the attack. Our mids also need guys to distribute to, and that seems very lacking with us - maybe it's the problem with our wing-backs? Perhaps a poster I read is correct in that guys like Morgan can bring some speed to the team coming from the back.

In any event, a team that isn't getting scoring chances game after game needs to look seriously at its tactics. Our defense may have been much stronger in the past because we absorbed attacks, then hit on the counter. And while I like the idea of having a passing game, maybe we should just plug the midfield, hold back and bide our time like the old days.

Onwards.