Whitecaps 2012 Roster Dance

[Lord Bob]

My only sure cuts are Harris, Thorrington, and Cannon: their salaries are out of whack with their contributions. I'd welcome Thorrington and especially Cannon back if they were willing to sign for minimum wage ($44,000) but they probably wouldn't. If Cannon didn't return pluck up somebody off the NASL tree like Jeff Attinella or Lance Parker. Nanchoff is an automatic cut if he graduates from Generation Adidas and an automatic keep if he doesn't. Barbara is also a tempting cut, but given his injury problems this year and his NASL performance I'd be inclined to give him one more season unless I needed his money. And while I like Bonjour a lot, we can't have both him and O'Brien kicking around on six-figure contracts and O'Brien looks better.

I'd be reluctant to go around signing too many Residency kids too early. Bear in mind that as soon as they sign an MLS contract their NCAA eligibility is gone forever, and if these guys wind up not being good enough for professional soccer this could literally ruin their lives. That's why I'm fine with keeping Brian Sylvestre as the third goalkeeper over Callum Irving, even though I think Irving is superior: Irving can go to Kentucky, play for a few years in a decent program, return for USL PDL every summer, and we can track his development, compare it to the other excellent Residency keepers like Marco Carducci and Nolan Wirth, and see who deserves what.

For that reason, I might hold off on signing McKendry, who I really like but is sort of on the fence as a professional. I'd still sign Fisk if I could, though; he has an agent so there's no point in worrying about his NCAA status.

I'm not prepared to give up on all the DPs. I couldn't care less about Miller, whose signing I didn't like to begin with; if he's cut that's fine. But Robson has played excellently, in better leagues than MLS, very recently. Everybody will have a bad few months and Robson's weren't terrible. Given his reputation as a captain and excellent leader in superior teams than Vancouver I'm not worried about his arm-waving; Jay DeMerit is an extremely vocal leader as well out of the same mold. I'd certainly keep him if he wanted to say. Bear in mind what a DP is: each team is entitled to have three of them. They can't all be elite MLS players: some of them will be merely good ones, preferably with unique talents or pedigree that command a higher price.

Players like DeMerit and Camilo are certainly movable if the right opportunity came along but there's no problem keeping them.

I'd be fine going into January with a roster like this:

GK: Knighton, Sylvestre

DF: DeMerit, Lee, Rochat, Harvey, O'Brien, Mitchell (maybe Klazura)

MF: Robson, Koffie, Teibert, Alderson, Davidson, Salgado, Watson (maybe Nanchoff)

FW: Clarke, Barbara, Mattocks, Camilo (maybe Miller)

[Yohan]

I don't think Miller deserves to be Jarju'd quite yet. While his production has been disappointing, remember that some players take a while to get used to MLS, and with some rest and proper off season, I think Miller could still be productive in MLS

[Macksam]

I'm not prepared to give up on all the DPs. I couldn't care less about Miller, whose signing I didn't like to begin with; if he's cut that's fine. But Robson has played excellently, in better leagues than MLS, very recently. Everybody will have a bad few months and Robson's weren't terrible. Given his reputation as a captain and excellent leader in superior teams than Vancouver I'm not worried about his arm-waving; )

[Grizzly]

I have a hard time seeing what it was in either of Miller or Robson's careers that inspired Vancouver to make them DPs especially Miller. I think they are both classic cases of guys with bigger names than accomplishments. Both are guys who have spent their whole careers in 2nd tier leagues. Robson was a fairly decent SPL and Championship midfielder but that should not qualify him as a DP though to be fair his DP wage is not huge either at close to $600 000.

Miller at $1.2 million is perplexing, the only time he ever put up big scoring numbers were two (of his three) seasons with Rangers in league where much of the opposition was vastly inferior to his club. His other accomplishments are two 10 goal seasons in the Championship which while not bad certainly does not scream DP. 5 goals in 15 games in the Turkish Super Liga was decent but there are also a few bad years in these same leagues and one poor season in the EPL. Where does one get a DP out of that especially at 32?

There is really something wrong when you have 2 British DPs and your best British player (and arguably best 2 British players) is a career USL/NASL guy.

In light of that I would really enjoy hearing another interview with Lenarduzzi where he could explain once again or better yet be questioned about his opinion that one can not go after established Canadian players because they are too expensive to bring back. Would it really cost $600 000 let alone $1.2 million to sign Iain Hume who has put up some similar numbers to Miller in his career?

[Soro17]

In light of that I would really enjoy hearing another interview with Lenarduzzi where he could explain once again or better yet be questioned about his opinion that one can not go after established Canadian players because they are too expensive to bring back. Would it really cost $600 000 let alone $1.2 million to sign Iain Hume who has put up some similar numbers to Miller in his career?

You won't hear that interview. Everytime Bobby is interviewed by Vancouver media, about 10 seconds is spent on the current Caps and then the rest of the interview is spent reminiscing about the Soccer Bowl and playing against Pele.

[Soro17]

.

I'd be fine going into January with a roster like this:

GK: Knighton, Sylvestre

DF: DeMerit, Lee, Rochat, Harvey, O'Brien, Mitchell (maybe Klazura)

MF: Robson, Koffie, Teibert, Alderson, Davidson, Salgado, Watson (maybe Nanchoff)

FW: Clarke, Barbara, Mattocks, Camilo (maybe Miller)

I'd be curious to see a front pairing of Salgado and Mattocks. I'm not convinced that Salgado is most effective as a winger, plus I prefer RT out there.

Given that Miller is likely gone and the need to maintain a Highland-balance of sorts, shall we start the Barry Ferguson as DP rumour? He checks all the boxes....

[Lord Bob]

I have a hard time seeing what it was in either of Miller or Robson's careers that inspired Vancouver to make them DPs especially Miller. I think they are both classic cases of guys with bigger names than accomplishments. Both are guys who have spent their whole careers in 2nd tier leagues. Robson was a fairly decent SPL and Championship midfielder but that should not qualify him as a DP though to be fair his DP wage is not huge either at close to $600 000.

And also answering Macksam's question in the Montreal Impact thread, which is off the rails enough as it is:

So, you think the Scottish Prem and Championship are better than MLS? If so, to what extent?

I do think the Championship is somewhat better than MLS. Not overwhelmingly but somewhat, and of course because there's no promotion/relegation in MLS some teams might get relegated horribly if they were in the Championship while others would do quite well. And in that league, just last season, Robson was captain, team MVP as voted by the supporters, and generally a highly-regarded player who was perceived as playing at a very high level.

Now, is that worth being a DP? There were thirty DPs in MLS this past season. Thirty! For nineteen teams! A designated player doesn't have to be a David Beckham/Landon Donovan-level talent to cover the bet; that hasn't been the case for some years now. Taking the MVP of a decent Championship team and asking him to be one of the thirty best players in MLS doesn't seem like a bad bet to me.

I'm not trying to defend Miller here whose signing, as I've said, I didn't like at the time.

[Macksam]

And also answering Macksam's question in the Montreal Impact thread, which is off the rails enough as it is:

I do think the Championship is somewhat better than MLS. Not overwhelmingly but somewhat, and of course because there's no promotion/relegation in MLS some teams might get relegated horribly if they were in the Championship while others would do quite well. And in that league, just last season, Robson was captain, team MVP as voted by the supporters, and generally a highly-regarded player who was perceived as playing at a very high level.

Now, is that worth being a DP? There were thirty DPs in MLS this past season. Thirty! For nineteen teams! A designated player doesn't have to be a David Beckham/Landon Donovan-level talent to cover the bet; that hasn't been the case for some years now. Taking the MVP of a decent Championship team and asking him to be one of the thirty best players in MLS doesn't seem like a bad bet to me.

I'm not trying to defend Miller here whose signing, as I've said, I didn't like at the time.

Interesting point. I guess it also comes down to style of play. Yesterday, if anybody watched the San Jose/ LA game, which was awesome by the way, they would have seen fast-paced, possession-based soccer, very akin to French Ligue 1, where the majority of plays were creatively built up through the mid field. I'm guessing Championship teams are similar to lower level Prem sides where a mix of long balls and plays utilizing the flanks are the basis for most attacks. Even though he played in the Championship, which is better overall, Robson might continue to have a hard time adjusting to MLS' faster, possession based style of play considering his problem last season was slowing down all of Vancouver's rushes.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

I do think the Championship is somewhat better than MLS. Not overwhelmingly but somewhat, and of course because there's no promotion/relegation in MLS some teams might get relegated horribly if they were in the Championship while others would do quite well.

I think teams like Toronto and Chivas would have a hard time staying out of the relation zone in League 1 in England. Having watched a lot of live matches the past few years I don't see the top MLS teams being much better than the top teams in League 1.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

I'm guessing Championship teams are similar to lower level Prem sides where a mix of long balls and plays utilizing the flanks are the basis for most attacks. Even though he played in the Championship

Not really, if you look at some of the teams coming out of the Championship the past few years there are a lot of team playing technically strong football. Teams that are able to play the ball on the ground and play attacking football. It's not all about direct, long ball football.

[maccaliam]

^ I disagree. I've watched a bit of league 1 in England and it's pretty ****. TFC is seriously garbage, but some of the top MLS sides would not only get promoted from League 1, but wouldn't look out of place in the Championship. Remember, a lot of English Championship football is utterly crap, and can be painful to watch too.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

^ I disagree. I've watched a bit of league 1 in England and it's pretty ****. TFC is seriously garbage, but some of the top MLS sides would not only get promoted from League 1, but wouldn't look out of place in the Championship. Remember, a lot of English Championship football is utterly crap, and can be painful to watch too.

I'm just going of the matches I watched live in person the past few year. The teams in League 1 aren't **** and can play football much better than a lot of teams in the MLS. There is also not that much difference between teams in league 1 an the championship. The past two years you have seen teams go straight from League 1 to the premiership. Football in the Championship is a lot better than you give it credit for. I would kill to see a standard as high as the Championship in Toronto.

[Grizzly]

MLS teams for the most part would do fine in The Championship. Where they would have difficulty competing in The Championship over a full season would be in the team depth category. We shouldn't overrate the quality of players in The Championship and while some players are more suited to one league/style than another it can't be ignored that an awful lot of Championship players have transferred to MLS and not looked even like average MLS starters, often due to a lack of technical ability. However, that being said, there are not the massive drops in ability in Championship squads between the starters, the first choice subs and the depth players that there are in MLS. In a short series of games I think MLS teams would do just fine against Championship teams, in a long season when injuries and suspensions started to hit they would probably struggle.

[maccaliam]

I'm just going of the matches I watched live in person the past few year. The teams in League 1 aren't **** and can play football much better than a lot of teams in the MLS. There is also not that much difference between teams in league 1 an the championship. The past two years you have seen teams go straight from League 1 to the premiership. Football in the Championship is a lot better than you give it credit for. I would kill to see a standard as high as the Championship in Toronto.

As would I in some cases, but in others, the level of the championship and league 1 is pants - much like Toronto. IMO, sometimes Championship footy is fantastic, but sometimes it's total crap - a lot like the MLS. I enjoy watching the English lower leagues, I just don't think it is always better than MLS, as you seem to.

EDIT: Grizzly's assessment fits with much of what I believe about both leagues.

[Macksam]

MLS teams for the most part would do fine in The Championship. Where they would have difficulty competing in The Championship over a full season would be in the team depth category. We shouldn't overrate the quality of players in The Championship and while some players are more suited to one league/style than another it can't be ignored that an awful lot of Championship players have transferred to MLS and not looked even like average MLS starters, often due to a lack of technical ability. However, that being said, there are not the massive drops in ability in Championship squads between the starters, the first choice subs and the depth players that there are in MLS. In a short series of games I think MLS teams would do just fine against Championship teams, in a long season when injuries and suspensions started to hit they would probably struggle.

That's what I'm thinking the case is for Robson.

I think this discussion points out one valuable thing, we need more French Ligue 1 players in MLS.

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

Rennie talked on the radio today about his thoughts on Miller and Robson's future with the club: more or less expects them to be back.

Hard to really gauge the situation from the comments, but I have a feeling there will be a lot of evaluating and reflection in terms of how to approach the situation.

If we cut them both we will have struck out on 3 DP signings in a row.

The other side is keep one or both of them, I am leaning more and more to maybe keeping one, I see Robson as a guy that can still be effective if he isn't whining. Miller is just useless off the ball, and has minimal pace and creativity on the ball.

I think next year if Robson was kept he should be played deeper just in front of the DM, His pace is gone and he does not get back, but he can feed long balls all day from where Koffie/Watson had been prowling. Someone was talking of trying Camilo out in the AM role after putting up 8 assists and showing some ability to play with his head up.

So a prelim mid of

------Rochat

Robson----Koffie

-------Camilo

Could be effective if not Camilo there upgrade at the AM spot, either way i see Robson being effective if he can hang back and just use that left foot all day. In this narrow Diamond it allows Robson to play deep-lying playmaker, Koffie can push up and Rochat can cover, and distribute. Barry's pace wouldn't be exposed either as he'd have the RB over lapping and taking the wing

[tmcmurph]

I hope it was just talk. I've seen enough of both. At least Robson is only on 600k a year so some could make a case to keep him but constant long ball for an entire season would make me want to commit hari-kiri with a dull butter knife. Their best years are behind them and they have underestimated the level of athleticism in MLS. MLS may not be as technically good but most teams will run your ass off.

We have to cut our losses. Loan them out and see if anyone wants to keep them. Save face for the club and player with the old "we've been given an offer and decided to accept it" routine.

[nolando]

Whitecaps FC Part Ways with Sylvestre, Ulisses, and Barbara

VANCOUVER, BC - Vancouver Whitecaps FC announced today that the club will not exercise their options on goalkeeper Brian Sylvestre, midfielder Tiago Ulisses, and striker Etienne Barbara. Roster changes will not be reflected prior to December 2, following the league's Roster Freeze.

Sylvestre, 19, leaves Whitecaps FC after making a total of four appearances during the past two seasons with the club's MLS Reserve League side. The native of Hollywood, Florida, also made five appearances for Whitecaps FC U-23 during last year's United Soccer Leagues Premier Development League campaign. Sylvestre originally joined the club in February 2010.

Ulisses, 23, moves on after initially signing with the Blue and White last August. During his brief spell in Vancouver, the native of São Paulo, Brazil, started two matches for Whitecaps FC reserves.

Barbara, 30, leaves Whitecaps FC after joining the club last January. The native of Pietà , Malta, made two substitute appearances in MLS, plus two further appearances in this year's Amway Canadian Championship for Vancouver. The striker also started six matches for the "˜Caps reserves in 2012.

http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=4509399

Wow - Ulisses is a bit of a headscratcher if you ask me.

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

Whitecaps FC Part Ways with Sylvestre, Ulisses, and Barbara

VANCOUVER, BC - Vancouver Whitecaps FC announced today that the club will not exercise their options on goalkeeper Brian Sylvestre, midfielder Tiago Ulisses, and striker Etienne Barbara. Roster changes will not be reflected prior to December 2, following the league's Roster Freeze.

Sylvestre, 19, leaves Whitecaps FC after making a total of four appearances during the past two seasons with the club's MLS Reserve League side. The native of Hollywood, Florida, also made five appearances for Whitecaps FC U-23 during last year's United Soccer Leagues Premier Development League campaign. Sylvestre originally joined the club in February 2010.

Ulisses, 23, moves on after initially signing with the Blue and White last August. During his brief spell in Vancouver, the native of São Paulo, Brazil, started two matches for Whitecaps FC reserves.

Barbara, 30, leaves Whitecaps FC after joining the club last January. The native of Pietà , Malta, made two substitute appearances in MLS, plus two further appearances in this year's Amway Canadian Championship for Vancouver. The striker also started six matches for the "˜Caps reserves in 2012.

http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=4509399

Wow - Ulisses is a bit of a headscratcher if you ask me.

Ulisses must of said he wanted to go back to Brazil. Rennie dropped the ball on that after he said he won't play till he learns english. Why not Rennie learn a bit of whatever they speak in Brazil Portuguese? Spanish? Like come on the guy probably was oozing potential came from Botafogo. Seems like that comment from Rennie put a fork in the road.

Things it does do is open up 2 INT spots and 2 Off Budget spots.

[youllneverwalkalone]

^Not that Botafogo.

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

^Not that Botafogo.

Oops, lol just assumed there was one of them in Brazil. Damn, well my point is somewhat moot.

[Danny Boy]

Rennie dropped the ball on that after he said he won't play till he learns english

When did he say that? I don't recall hearing that anywhere. From what I'm reading, it was more of a trial situation due to the fact they got him so close to the end of the transfer window. So they were forced to sign before having a good look.

Either way he was touted as more of a defensive midfielder and that's not what the Caps need right now. They need a lot more creativity and someone who can direct the traffic. Someone who can complement Robson and Koffie in Rennie's preferred 4-3-3.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Here is how I would do it.

Get rid of one keeper, they are too similar. I think Cannon is a good as Knighton or vice versa, they are both competent and probably MLS quality. So pick one as starter and sign a younger but solid talent to sub him. For money, keep Knighton for what it is worth.

We need a decent sub for Harvey and hope for health from the three centre mids worth playing.

I'd keep the mids as well, including Robson, he started well and has a lot of talent and pace is not lacking either. Let him play closer to the other mids and lets play in the mid more.

Up front you have to keep Camilo and dump Miller, who was off from day one. Hassli was better in many ways. Keep the Jamaicans. Play Camilo where he can do most damage, inside not out. Meaning change the damn system and stop playing two outside players and Mattocks, he is not a target man nor a classic striker, he does not have a good shot and cannot jump for absurb balls indefinitely. He holds up poorly. Mattocks is an athlete and should be subbing for someone more solid. If coach does not believe in Salgado then let the kid go, he is too young to be on the bench.

Give Rennie another year.

Convince him the season actually does last 8 months and suggest he sign a few players to cover those missing or let go. Let him play his way and stick to it, I am fine with that. As long as he does not cop out midseason or start questioning himself or expressing his self-doubt onthe pitch. He probably needs a new, experienced assistant as all year he looked like no one he trusted ever said a word to him.

As is, when you get improved results and the learning curve is upwards, don't fiddle too much. Build on what you have. We were a goal and Demerit not getting injured from being in the next playoff round.

[nolando]

Here is how I would do it.

Get rid of one keeper, they are too similar. I think Cannon is a good as Knighton or vice versa, they are both competent and probably MLS quality. So pick one as starter and sign a younger but solid talent to sub him. For money, keep Knighton for what it is worth.

We need a decent sub for Harvey and hope for health from the three centre mids worth playing.

I'd keep the mids as well, including Robson, he started well and has a lot of talent and pace is not lacking either. Let him play closer to the other mids and lets play in the mid more.

Up front you have to keep Camilo and dump Miller, who was off from day one. Hassli was better in many ways. Keep the Jamaicans. Play Camilo where he can do most damage, inside not out. Meaning change the damn system and stop playing two outside players and Mattocks, he is not a target man nor a classic striker, he does not have a good shot and cannot jump for absurb balls indefinitely. He holds up poorly. Mattocks is an athlete and should be subbing for someone more solid. If coach does not believe in Salgado then let the kid go, he is too young to be on the bench.

Give Rennie another year.

Convince him the season actually does last 8 months and suggest he sign a few players to cover those missing or let go. Let him play his way and stick to it, I am fine with that. As long as he does not cop out midseason or start questioning himself or expressing his self-doubt onthe pitch. He probably needs a new, experienced assistant as all year he looked like no one he trusted ever said a word to him.

As is, when you get improved results and the learning curve is upwards, don't fiddle too much. Build on what you have. We were a goal and Demerit not getting injured from being in the next playoff round.

I agree with a lot of this. I suspect Caps will be losing Lee which is another big replacement. Richards is gone to England already but I wouldn't mind seeing another Carribean-style player with speed and creativity in his place, preferably someone who can overlap well with whomever is playing RB.

[Danny Boy]

Here is how I would do it.

Get rid of one keeper, they are too similar. I think Cannon is a good as Knighton or vice versa, they are both competent and probably MLS quality. So pick one as starter and sign a younger but solid talent to sub him. For money, keep Knighton for what it is worth.

We need a decent sub for Harvey and hope for health from the three centre mids worth playing.

I'd keep the mids as well, including Robson, he started well and has a lot of talent and pace is not lacking either. Let him play closer to the other mids and lets play in the mid more.

Up front you have to keep Camilo and dump Miller, who was off from day one. Hassli was better in many ways. Keep the Jamaicans. Play Camilo where he can do most damage, inside not out. Meaning change the damn system and stop playing two outside players and Mattocks, he is not a target man nor a classic striker, he does not have a good shot and cannot jump for absurb balls indefinitely. He holds up poorly. Mattocks is an athlete and should be subbing for someone more solid. If coach does not believe in Salgado then let the kid go, he is too young to be on the bench.

Give Rennie another year.

Convince him the season actually does last 8 months and suggest he sign a few players to cover those missing or let go. Let him play his way and stick to it, I am fine with that. As long as he does not cop out midseason or start questioning himself or expressing his self-doubt onthe pitch. He probably needs a new, experienced assistant as all year he looked like no one he trusted ever said a word to him.

As is, when you get improved results and the learning curve is upwards, don't fiddle too much. Build on what you have. We were a goal and Demerit not getting injured from being in the next playoff round.

Agree about the goalkeeping. They need a capable back up to push Knighton to the next level.

As for Harvey, Rochat needs to be the starting LB even though he did a decent job at CM. its RB where we need cover. YP Lee may not be back and Klazura isnt the answer. i think the Caps need to make a play for either Peters or Hainault in that position.

Unfortunately you can't keep both Jamaicans as Burnley already has Richards. I'm more torn with the Miller situation, I think he actually brings a better work rate and an unselfishness than that of Camilo. I see more of a Mattocks vs Camilo situation in terms of who is the first string striker. I think that we need a proper target man and that's where Miller becomes expendable. Maybe Salgado can be groomed into that role as he has the size strength and skill to succeed but it sounds like they like him on the left where he had success earlier this year. I'd like to see Teibert finally make a play for starting on the left.