Can Soccer dethrone Hockey as Canada's national game?

[Keegan]

Just look at what has happened in the past 10 years to the game in this country... now imagine another 10 years with pro clubs. Its happening folks and some of the most brilliant people in this country and jumping on it. While the CFL basks in its numbers the NFL is creeping into Toronto bit by bit and that is a bullet to the head because there is no way in hell the CFL will be able to compete once it is actually head to head with the big boys. Imagine if an EPL team was suddenly in Toronto..

[finchster]

Just look at what has happened in the past 10 years to the game in this country... now imagine another 10 years with pro clubs. Its happening folks and some of the most brilliant people in this country and jumping on it. While the CFL basks in its numbers the NFL is creeping into Toronto bit by bit and that is a bullet to the head because there is no way in hell the CFL will be able to compete once it is actually head to head with the big boys. Imagine if an EPL team was suddenly in Toronto..

I think a NFL team in Toronto is unlikely, but that's a different debate for another day .

[Redcoatsforever]

I think we as soccer supporters should focus on the fact that sport in general is on the rise, and rather than trying to beat out football or hockey or any other sport for the lion's share of tunnel-visioned one-sport followers, just focus on putting out the best possible soccer atmosphere and performance. People who like sports in general like soccer, football, and hockey, and will follow all three if they're attractive.

[kj52]

Team sport fans also follow many individual sports as well, we are a multi-sport country even though the mainstream sports media continues to spend most of it's efforts on hockey.

[Stan10]

Would hockey be as popular in Canada if TSN or the Fan 590 didn't dedicate 90% of their coverage to that sport? I think not.

At the high school that I teach at there isn't even a hockey team because only 11 kids showed up for the try-outs while there were over 30 for the soccer and basketball tryouts, the time is coming.

[Keegan]

Would hockey be as popular in Canada if TSN or the Fan 590 didn't dedicate 90% of their coverage to that sport? I think not.

At the high school that I teach at there isn't even a hockey team because only 11 kids showed up for the try-outs while there were over 30 for the soccer and basketball tryouts, the time is coming.

This... and to add to that my old high school had a tradition dating back 100 years of football and homecoming... the football program was cut a few years ago and soccer is the homecoming event now

[killgod]

Just look at what has happened in the past 10 years to the game in this country... now imagine another 10 years with pro clubs. Its happening folks and some of the most brilliant people in this country and jumping on it. While the CFL basks in its numbers the NFL is creeping into Toronto bit by bit and that is a bullet to the head because there is no way in hell the CFL will be able to compete once it is actually head to head with the big boys. Imagine if an EPL team was suddenly in Toronto..

You talk as if Toronto is the centre of the universe.... I thought Torontonians only did that.

Toronto doesn't care about the CFL now, let alone with better options in play here. Doesn't matter however, the rest of the nation still loves the CFL and I don't see that changing for a long while.

Lastly, don't buy into the rumours about an NFL team in Toronto, it's just silly attention seeking reporting and it's simply not happening. The last time it was seriously considered the Canadian Gov't said we're not interested. Consider the lack of a NFL stadium (Rogers Centre isn't really an option and is a poor setup for football) and the fact that the NFL, much like the NBA, has players who mostly only care about riches, won't be interested in living in Canada because of our taxes and lack of exposure to the US. It's just not realistic or a good idea IMO.

[Keegan]

You talk as if Toronto is the centre of the universe.... I thought Torontonians only did that.

Toronto doesn't care about the CFL now, let alone with better options in play here. Doesn't matter however, the rest of the nation still loves the CFL and I don't see that changing for a long while.

Lastly, don't buy into the rumours about an NFL team in Toronto, it's just silly attention seeking reporting and it's simply not happening. The last time it was seriously considered the Canadian Gov't said we're not interested. Consider the lack of a NFL stadium (Rogers Centre isn't really an option and is a poor setup for football) and the fact that the NFL, much like the NBA, has players who mostly only care about riches, won't be interested in living in Canada because of our taxes and lack of exposure to the US. It's just not realistic or a good idea IMO.

UFC broke through and is in Toronto now... money talks and demand pressures, it only makes sense for there to be a team in Toronto and it will happen... one day.

[paul-collins]

Would hockey be as popular in Canada if TSN or the Fan 590 didn't dedicate 90% of their coverage to that sport? I think not.

At the high school that I teach at there isn't even a hockey team because only 11 kids showed up for the try-outs while there were over 30 for the soccer and basketball tryouts, the time is coming.

Canadians don't connect sports and school in any meaningful way. Hockey may exist in parallel with school but it's a coexistence rather than a symbiosis.

Look at NCAA vs CIS to see what I mean.

[killgod]

UFC broke through and is in Toronto now... money talks and demand pressures, it only makes sense for there to be a team in Toronto and it will happen... one day.

I'd wager that Canada will win the World Cup first.

[red card]

You have to break it down by region. In the GTA, it already has.

At the participatory level yes; but not as a spectator sport where footy is far behind. The tv ratings are plain to see - pointy ball whether it is the CFL or NFL is the 2nd most popular sport in Canada. Day-to-day media coverage reflects this and sports talk radio reflects this. More GTA people watch the Argos on tv than probably 4 TFC or EPL matches combined. This didn't happen overnight and that's why while footy interest will ascend in our lifetimes, it isn't going to the 2nd most popular sport in Canada by 2080. Baseball is in a wobbly 3rd place. Basketball gets lots of media coverage but its tv ratings aren't too higher than footy.

Demographics cuts both ways as our population is aging. Senior population should double to 25% of Canada by 2036. These people aren't going to be changing their sport viewing habits too radically.

[finchster]

Canadians don't connect sports and school in any meaningful way. Hockey may exist in parallel with school but it's a coexistence rather than a symbiosis.

Look at NCAA vs CIS to see what I mean.

Bingo, school sports are largely meaningless.

When communities support soccer clubs the same way Canadians support CHL hockey teams, then you might have something. JR hockey miles ahead of professional soccer in Canada still.

[Redcoatsforever]

UFC broke through and is in Toronto now... money talks and demand pressures, it only makes sense for there to be a team in Toronto and it will happen... one day.

You know that when the CFL looked like it might collapse the NFL propped it up, right?

And that the NFL shows CFL games in the USA on their networks?

They have no interest in Canadian expansion, the NFL is a full league. They have no interest in relocation, the two leagues have the same respect for one another that Harvard and McGill have had in creating both versions of football. Why would the top national football organization of America want to undermine the national football organization of another country when they already have maximum revenue from TV and merchandise in that country?

If anything, the Bills home games in T.O. would become more expensive because of cross-border travel and customs and so on.

As far as all this talk of "dethroning" other big time sports in Canada goes, for the average sports fan who watches hockey and football, and may be developing an interest in soccer, does it really seem like the best way to get their viewership by saying "We want to threaten the leagues you know and love"?

[gigi riva]

I believe Soccer will overtake Baseball in Participation and Spectator sport within 5 years. As far as the cfl goes I am avid follower of the the CFL (Go Riders ) So I would love to see Both Sports on par. Someone made a good point look how far Soccer has come in 10 years here in Canada. Just think now we have 3 pro teams and hopefully more to come were the sport will go.

P.S. Of course you guys remember when Canada won the Gold Cup in 2000. I often wonder what will happen if Canada would have won that with teams LIKE TFC, Whitecap, Impact and F.C Edmonton were present I think we would have seen a majoe explosion and maybe qualification in World Cups of 2006, or 2010..

[finchster]

Quick question to the people old enough; I was 14 during the 2000 Gold Cup and I wasn’t knowledgeable about the business of soccer in Canada at the time obviously. If someone told you after the Gold Cup how soccer in Canada and North America would develop in 10 years, what would be your honest reaction?

We haven’t developed enough, we developed how you expected, or it would be a major pipe dream? I mean, I see a major difference from 2005-now and I think now the mood has changed drastically.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Quick question to the people old enough; I was 14 during the 2000 Gold Cup and I wasn’t knowledgeable about the business of soccer in Canada at the time obviously. If someone told you after the Gold Cup how soccer in Canada and North America would develop in 10 years, what would be your honest reaction?

We haven’t developed enough, we developed how you expected, or it would be a major pipe dream? I mean, I see a major difference from 2005-now and I think now the mood has changed drastically.

What we have now would have very much been seen as a (P/p)ipe dream back in 2000. The prevailing opinion on the Voyageurs board at that point was that MLS was not going to accept Canadian teams and anyone suggesting that three Canadian teams would emerge over the next decade or so that would provide almost all of the players for a successful U-17 WC qualification would probably have been met by abusive posts and basically would have had their sanity questioned.

Personally I hoped it was all going to unfold much as it has at that point and always believed the latent interest in the sport was there for the NASL boom of the late 70s and early 80s to be repeated and actually sustained the second time around but didn't really expect it to happen because of the sheer scale of up front financial investment required at a time when there was still a serious question as to whether MLS would be able to survive. A perfect storm of factors had to unfold just right to get an SSS in Toronto with no Argos involvement so things easily could have gone in another direction.

[jpg75]

Domestic club ball is light years ahead of what anyone would have thought. As BBTB mentioned most, if not everyone, believed that MLS would never come north so we're really lucky to now (soon) have 3 teams with full academies. It bodes really well for the future and should position us back to where we were in the run-ups to the 1982 thru 1994 (minus the 1990 campaign) WCQ campaigns going forward.

Internationally i think we're behind where most thought. Holger Osiecks technical plan should have seen us fielding a team full of 1st division players by now (his words), players being funnelled through the NTC's and National Youth teams before going on to elite European teams and that hasn't happened. Also, we had a strong core of under-23 players that had a successful run at the 1997 U20WC and that core group failed to qualify for the 2000 Sydney Olympics and then failed to help us qualify for the 2002, 2006 and 2010 World Cups. Then the defections of our top players along the way and it's been a snowball of failure since then.

[red card]

Based on avg attendance in the past 3 seasons, the CFL is the #7 sports league in the world. In terms of footy leagues, only the Bundesliga, Premier League and la Liga out do it.

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/finance-biz/business-intelligence/global-attendances/

This article failed to include U.S. college leagues but another article says the SEC & Big Ten football conferences have higher avg attendance than the NFL. And the Big 12, Pac 10, ACC and Big East football conferences have higher avg attendance than the Bundesliga. So, a bit too many people on this board underestimate the power of all types of pointy ball in North America and in particular the CFL.

[Watchmen]

There's really no reason why the CFL and soccer couldn't co-exist. They both have a large portion of their games at a time of year when there's no hockey, and they're both (for the most part) once a week events. Currently a lot of media in the summer spends the beginning/end of the week discussing the CFL, but they'll always admit that during the summer they're struggling for topics to discuss. Soccer could easily help fill that void, without detracting from current CFL coverage.

As it stands, I'd just like to see soccer over take the NBA in media discussions. I don't know what it's like in other parts of the country, but last week the mere rumour of the NBA returning to Vancouver caused the local radio guys to drop everything and spend the entire day discussing it and how much they'd love to see it return. Never mind that it was an utter failure the first time around, that they'll admit that they hated dealing with the NBA players, and that the players openly admitted to hating it here. This time it would be different! (naive reasons for why are then given). Meanwhile, they rarely seem to talk about the Whitecaps other then to say that there's a real buzz about them and that they're really looking forward to MLS.

[Macksam]

At the participatory level yes; but not as a spectator sport where footy is far behind. The tv ratings are plain to see - pointy ball whether it is the CFL or NFL is the 2nd most popular sport in Canada. Day-to-day media coverage reflects this and sports talk radio reflects this. More GTA people watch the Argos on tv than probably 4 TFC or EPL matches combined. This didn't happen overnight and that's why while footy interest will ascend in our lifetimes, it isn't going to the 2nd most popular sport in Canada by 2080. Baseball is in a wobbly 3rd place. Basketball gets lots of media coverage but its tv ratings aren't too higher than footy.

Demographics cuts both ways as our population is aging. Senior population should double to 25% of Canada by 2036. These people aren't going to be changing their sport viewing habits too radically.

How so? TFC's paid attendance is higher than the Argos for starters. As for GTA people watching the Argos more, are you sure about that? Do you have a link breaking down the Argos' TSN ratings by region? I would be very interested in seeing whether even half the Argos numbers are from people within in the GTA, or mostly from the opposing team's regions.

[ThiKu]

He was talking in general terms, Macksam. Not just Toronto FC v. Toronto Argos! Wow...

[Macksam]

He was talking in general terms, Macksam. Not just Toronto FC v. Toronto Argos! Wow...

He was also talking about the GTA specifically.

[masster]

It is very disappointing that a stupidly written headline with no relevance to the article itself can completely scew the debate that ensues. If you have not noticed, the headline has been changed to the much more appropriate..."Has soccer's time come in Canada." Looking at the facts put out in the article, the answer is obviously yes. What TFC and the Vancouver Whitecaps have showed, is that you CAN make money off soccer in Canada. I would suggest that both of those teams are making more money than even the most profitable CFL franchise.

If there is money to be made, investors will follow. And when they do, this will lead to the kind of development for the game in this country that we all want. That is the main point that should be taken from this soccer focused business article.

[killgod]

It is very disappointing that a stupidly written headline with no relevance to the article itself can completely scew the debate that ensues. If you have not noticed, the headline has been changed to the much more appropriate..."Has soccer's time come in Canada." Looking at the facts put out in the article, the answer is obviously yes. What TFC and the Vancouver Whitecaps have showed, is that you CAN make money off soccer in Canada. I would suggest that both of those teams are making more money than even the most profitable CFL franchise.

If there is money to be made, investors will follow. And when they do, this will lead to the kind of development for the game in this country that we all want. That is the main point that should be taken from this soccer focused business article.

I believe that even up till now (or the season before, cannot recall the figures I looked at), only TFC and LA is profitable in the MLS. The rest lost 0-3 Million. Many team values are rapidly climbing so owners could sell and recoup all their losses, but from an operations perspective MLS clubs are not making money, let alone out doing CFL clubs. However, CFL clubs only make a few million themselves.

[killgod]

How so? TFC's paid attendance is higher than the Argos for starters. As for GTA people watching the Argos more, are you sure about that? Do you have a link breaking down the Argos' TSN ratings by region? I would be very interested in seeing whether even half the Argos numbers are from people within in the GTA, or mostly from the opposing team's regions.

As mentioned earlier in the thread by myself, the Labour Day Classic will draw 1+ Million viewers with an average season viewership of 807,000 on TSN for the 2010 season.

TFC might draw 150,000 for their matches. It's not even close right now. The Argos TV viewers are likely lower based upon popularity, but it's still 5:1 on TFC easily.