Can Soccer dethrone Hockey as Canada's national game?

[Macksam]

At the participatory level yes; but not as a spectator sport where footy is far behind. The tv ratings are plain to see - pointy ball whether it is the CFL or NFL is the 2nd most popular sport in Canada. Day-to-day media coverage reflects this and sports talk radio reflects this. More GTA people watch the Argos on tv than probably 4 TFC or EPL matches combined. This didn't happen overnight and that's why while footy interest will ascend in our lifetimes, it isn't going to the 2nd most popular sport in Canada by 2080. Baseball is in a wobbly 3rd place. Basketball gets lots of media coverage but its tv ratings aren't too higher than footy.

Demographics cuts both ways as our population is aging. Senior population should double to 25% of Canada by 2036. These people aren't going to be changing their sport viewing habits too radically.

That's because it will be the first by that time.

I believe that even up till now (or the season before, cannot recall the figures I looked at), only TFC and LA is profitable in the MLS. The rest lost 0-3 Million. Many team values are rapidly climbing so owners could sell and recoup all their losses, but from an operations perspective MLS clubs are not making money, let alone out doing CFL clubs. However, CFL clubs only make a few million themselves.

The Roughriders, the most profitible team probably, only make a couple hundred thousand in profit annually.

[killgod]

The Roughriders, the most profitible team probably, only make a couple hundred thousand in profit annually.

The posted a 3.1M profit last season. http://sports.nationalpost.com/2010/06/19/roughriders-announce-record-profit/

We get it, you hate on the CFL. Move on.

[TFCRegina]

The posted a 3.1M profit last season. http://sports.nationalpost.com/2010/06/19/roughriders-announce-record-profit/

We get it, you hate on the CFL. Move on.

Yes, and they routinely lost money prior to 2007. The Riders are the CFL in one sense, and when their power wanes, the CFL wanes. More people watch when the Riders do well. It's "Canada's Team."

I remember the 90s, when they would just give tickets away.

[jonovision]

Not sure what the point is turning this into a CFL-bashing thread. Its had it troubles over the years, but it is very healthy right now everywhere except southern Ontario, and is really the only example of a successful Canadian professional league in any sport. We really should be looking at what teams and the league have been doing right.

[killgod]

Yes, and they routinely lost money prior to 2007. The Riders are the CFL in one sense, and when their power wanes, the CFL wanes. More people watch when the Riders do well. It's "Canada's Team."

I remember the 90s, when they would just give tickets away.

You're right, but as mentioned the league is thriving right now and you (might?!) get a new building as well, which could further those incomes.

My main argument when I hopped in this thread is that the CFL is much stronger right now and that most people realize (especially in the GTA ) ...and are completely oblivious to it's current successes because the Argos suck and play in that awful giant tomb.

CFL revenues are growing and TSN has to re-up in 2 years. Add in the Ottawa and East coast markets, so basically an additional game every week to televise and I simply don't see the league going back to losing money for a while. Cohon is doing us proud. The MLS is in for a fight if it wants to overcome the CFL in standing.

P.S. Please don't talk about the 90's, Hamilton was worse than you guys were and I had season tickets for 7 of those dreadful years.

[TFCRegina]

You're right, but as mentioned the league is thriving right now and you (might?!) get a new building as well, which could further those incomes.

My main argument when I hopped in this thread is that the CFL is much stronger right now and that most people realize (especially in the GTA ) ...and are completely oblivious to it's current successes because the Argos suck and play in that awful giant tomb.

CFL revenues are growing and TSN has to re-up in 2 years. Add in the Ottawa and East coast markets, so basically an additional game every week to televise and I simply don't see the league going back to losing money for a while. Cohon is doing us proud. The MLS is in for a fight if it wants to overcome the CFL in standing.

P.S. Please don't talk about the 90's, Hamilton was worse than you guys were and I had season tickets for 7 of those dreadful years.

God I hope not, we have a million other practical things it could be spent on. Like roads, hospitals, teachers, etc.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

There's really no reason why the CFL and soccer couldn't co-exist....

Like any sweeping generalization there are exceptions to the trend but for the most part the CFL and soccer appeal to different demographics. As a spectator sport as opposed to a recreational activity soccer still appeals primarily to first and second generation immigrants, while the CFL is more of a pre-WWII arrival mainstream demographic sort of thing. That means it isn't necessarily a zero sum game where MLS and the CFL is concerned. In the absence of MLS I had near zero interest in the CFL and I suspect most hardcore CFL fans wouldn't suddenly start watching soccer if they lost their team/league. In my experience (this applies primarily to southern Ontario) the North American major sports leagues that the relatively recent immigrant soccer demographic often do tend to pay close attention to are usually more the NFL and NBA than the NHL and especially the CFL although it varies a lot between different immigrant communities where basketball is concerned.

[gigi riva]

I have no problem with Soccer and the CFL co existing. Hell in the U.K you have Rugby League or Union and Soccer co existing and there does not seem to be a problem As a soccer fan of more than 35 years I would love to see a Pro League here in Canada similiar to the NASL or USL with teams in St John's NFLD, to Victoria BC. Will it work ?:confused: I do not know . bUT hOPEFULLY some of Canada's brightest will get on Board and make it work:)

[Avram Grant]

I was referring more to this

"With a negative birthrate, declining death rates, and an aging population, immigration is the sole contributor to Canada’s population increase"

And besides rare circumstances most of those immigrants are coming from football countries, just look at the registration numbers between the two sports

This is actually a big misconception. The vast majority of immigrants to Canada (and especially the GTA) today come from China, the Indian subcontinent and the Philippines - definitely not places with a serious footballing tradition. When people talk about Canadian immigrants from footballing cultures they're really referring to the big wave of southern European immigrants that arrived in the decades after WWII and that has now basically subsided.

I actually think this shift bodes well for future support of the national team, because if these new Canadians and their children become interested in soccer they'd - at least in theory - be more likely to support Canada than the Old Country.

[Macksam]

The posted a 3.1M profit last season. http://sports.nationalpost.com/2010/06/19/roughriders-announce-record-profit/

We get it, you hate on the CFL. Move on.

I don't hate on anything, especially not the CFL. However, the truth is the Argos are going to continue a steady downward decline as Toronto FC and the rest of MLS gains in popularity in Canada's most populated cities.

[Cheeta]

This is actually a big misconception. The vast majority of immigrants to Canada (and especially the GTA) today come from China, the Indian subcontinent and the Philippines - definitely not places with a serious footballing tradition. When people talk about Canadian immigrants from footballing cultures they're really referring to the big wave of southern European immigrants that arrived in the decades after WWII and that has now basically subsided.

I actually think this shift bodes well for future support of the national team, because if these new Canadians and their children become interested in soccer they'd - at least in theory - be more likely to support Canada than the Old Country.

Pretty much will echo everything you've written. Not saying immigration from footie mad nations isn't happening anymore, in fact we're seeing a bit of a resurgence of European immigration in Manitoba these days, it just seems that a greater portion of the "immigrats of colour" who are arriving on these shores are coming from locations without an especially strong footballing tradition.

You would think demographics weren't on the CFL's side but just look at the crowds in the stands. A LOT of teenage kids up there. A lot. And the CFL isn't a corporate seat driven entity (like say the NHL for example). Sure it's a gate driven enterprise but the engine of that enterprise is very much commuity based. There's a lot of grass-roots commitment and emotional investment being made by those people in the stands and the seriousness of that investment gets handed down generation to generation. Just like in soccer.

All that being said, I firmly believe round-ball footie is on the ascendancy and is a serious threat to the CFL's long term future.

[Trident]

No.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

This is actually a big misconception. The vast majority of immigrants to Canada (and especially the GTA) today come from China, the Indian subcontinent and the Philippines....

Far from convinced that there is a "vast majority of immigrants" from the areas listed but even if there is it probably should be pointed out that soccer is the most popular sport in China and in the almost complete absence of cricket there are plenty of people from the Indian subcontinent that can be expected to gravitate towards our sport as well in much the same way as has happened with immigrant communities from the Caribbean where cricket is also traditionally the most popular sport.

[TFCRegina]

China's most popular sport is soccer. If they can ever get their corruption problems figured out and their development programs going, watch out.

[finchster]

Yes, and they routinely lost money prior to 2007. The Riders are the CFL in one sense, and when their power wanes, the CFL wanes. More people watch when the Riders do well. It's "Canada's Team."

I remember the 90s, when they would just give tickets away.

Yeah, but you can't compare the 1990's with anything that is happening today in Canada. Edmonton almost lost the Oilers because of ownership, a poor economy, and a weak dollar back then. All Canadian NHL teams (minus Toronto and Montreal to a lesser extent) were in financial dire straits and if things kept the same we would only have Toronto and Montreal in the NHL today; even the Vancouver Canucks were losing millions of dollars.

Everyone talks about the Leafs being the biggest and most profitable team in the NHL, that is only a recent phenomenon of the last 5 years with a salary cap and a strong Canadian dollar. In 2000 the New York Rangers, Detroit Red Wings, Phildelphia Flyers and Boston Bruins were all more valuable and profitable than the Toronto Maple Leafs; now the Leafs are top by a large margin. Yes the CFL had hard times in the 1990's, but the 90's were a hard time for all professional sports in Canada.

Today the CFL under Mark Cohan, who is one of the best sports execs in the business, is leading the CFL in a progressive manner and their next TV deal with tsn is expected to be huge. The CFL is currently paid 16 million dollars a season for TV rights and the MLS is paid very little for its tv rights. To put it simply, this isn't your fathers CFL and the MLS is not even close to catching the CFL currently.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

....To put it simply, this isn't your fathers CFL and the MLS is not even close to catching the CFL.

Despite now having comparable or larger season ticket bases in Toronto and Vancouver with Montreal a year away from doing the same? That's the largest three media markets that effectively cater to at least 60% of the national population with the CFL and MLS at a comparable level. You sound almost offended at the idea that soccer could ever eclipse the CFL. You do realize you are posting on a soccer board don't you? Some of us on here are soccer fans first and foremost who want to see our sport at the top, where it arguably very much belongs given it is the world's greatest sport bar none.

In global terms hockey, curling and the CFL barely even register with most people. To achieve meaningful success in international terms soccer and to a lesser extent basketball are the team sports that actually truly matter on a global scale. Given we are living in what Marshall McLuhan described as the "global village" it is not surprising that global sports like that are rising to prominence even in countries where they were not initially the most popular team sport. That's a process that is only likely to move in one direction, in my opinion.

[finchster]

Despite now having comparable or larger season ticket bases in Toronto and Vancouver with Montreal a year away from doing the same? That's the largest three media markets that effectively cater to at least 60% of the national population with the CFL and MLS at a comparable level. You sound almost offended at the idea that soccer could ever eclipse the CFL. You do realize you are posting on a soccer board don't you? Some of us on here are soccer fans first and foremost who want to see our sport at the top, where it arguably very much belongs given it is the world's greatest sport bar none.

Yeah, I forgot I am posting on a soccer board BBTB, thanks for reminding me. I guess that’s why I was confused in Kiev when I saw these two teams, one team in yellow and one team in red, kick around a round ball instead of a pointy one and no one was wearing helmets . Stop with the, “you realize you are on a soccer board” nonsense, I have seen you pull this card out numerous times before and it is getting tiresome.

I agree that soccer in North America has a higher growth potential, but the CFL is far ahead of MLS in Canada currently. The CFL is far ahead of MLS currently for a variety of reasons; one of the best execs in the business in Mark Cohan, a better TV deal, a soon expiring TV deal which re-negotiated is expected to be much larger (currently 16 million a year between 8 teams), teams not bleeding money, and a salary cap that is 40% larger. I could go on and on but you get the point.

No one can look to the 1990’s era CFL and apply it today because the realities of professional sports in Canada in the 1990’s are far different today. It isn’t “your fathers CFL” because that CFL had to deal with a terrible recession, a weak dollar and horrible mismanagement with a poorly executed expansion plan. Not that I think expanding to the USA was wrong, but their application of this plan was terrible.

Nothing I have stated is incorrect and we can debate the possibilities of soccer’s rapid ascension in popularity, but I am merely stating fact, the CFL currently is far ahead of MLS from a business standpoint. Until there is a major change in TV ratings for MLS this will be the case. There was an old saying about the Los Angeles Kings, “Los Angles has 20,000 hockey fans and when they are all at the game no one is watching them on TV”. Soccer may have a global following, but turning that following on to the MLS product and clubs hasn’t translated yet. This is the key to push the MLS over the CFL, but this takes time and huge sums of money for promotion. Having the MLS on TSN next year is a step in the right direction as everything they touch seems to turn to gold. I wouldn’t be surprised if the next Canadian MLS TV deal was more valuable than the next USA MLS TV deal for that reason.

But thanks for putting words in my mouth and creating straw man arguments like you usually do. Please feel free to attack any of the business related statements I have made that illustrates the CFL is ahead of MLS in this country, or the 1990’s was a totally different era for sports in Canada and meaningless today, otherwise everything you said is irrelevant.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Worth noting that he completely ignored my point about the relative number of season ticket holders in Vancouver, Toronto and in a year's time Montreal. In the three largest metropolitan areas where there is the highest proportion of first and second generation immigrants (almost 50% of people in Toronto were born overseas for example) things can be very different culturally from the Prairies where the CFL is at its strongest so it is far from unreasonable to envisage MLS overtaking the CFL in popularity in that context. Given Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal set the agenda of the national media to a greater extent than Edmonton, Winnipeg, Calgary and Regina that may be all it takes to shift the emphasis in sports coverage by national broadcasters and then interesting things could start to happen elsewhere, which are realistically out of reach right now.

[Joe MacCarthy]

You do realize you are posting on a soccer board don't you? Some of us on here are soccer fans first and foremost who want to see our sport at the top, where it arguably very much belongs given it is the world's greatest sport bar none.

In global terms hockey, curling and the CFL barely even register with most people. To achieve meaningful success in international terms soccer and to a lesser extent basketball are the team sports that actually truly matter on a global scale. Given we are living in what Marshall McLuhan described as the "global village"

McLuhan? Nice segue to irrelevancy.

There is only one basic problem with your arguments. People in Canada don't want to watch soccer. It's as simple as that and unlikely to change. Wouldn't the introduction of a new franchise be the impetus for curiosity? How were the ratings of TFC in the first year when they should have been good, if people were interested? The ratings don't lie, people don't watch soccer in Canada on a normal basis.

You can put all the pompous boor spin you want on it but you can't hide from the cold hard truth. Canadians don't like to watch soccer on television (on a regular basis)

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

...People in Canada don't want to watch soccer...

Hard to believe this was posted on a soccer board. Are you actually a soccer fan or is it only the national team angle that draws you here? The ratings during the World Cup prove otherwise so that's an absurd statement. People in Canada love to watch high quality soccer in that context. The key stumbling block right now is that MLS is still about AAA in quality in North American sports terms. There is vast potential for growth as the quality of play rises in MLS due to the investment currently being made in academy teams. The likes of MLSE, the Saputo family and Greg Kerfoot wouldn't be investing tens of millions if they didn't see scope for a huge upside financially over the medium to long term.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Potential and a toonie will get you a double double, who cares.

And if you had read my post you would have seen that I went to great pains to point out watching soccer on a regular basis not one off special events.

Do people tune into CBC's coverage of bobsleigh in huge numbers on a Saturday afternoon in the same numbers as they do when it's the Olympics, don't think so.

Did soccer take off (like my favourite Dutchman said it would) when almost a million watched our U19 girls in Edmonton, nooo.

Soccer in Canada is fighting many battles. Total apathy within the general viewing population and a fragmented market within those who are interested in the sport who prefer auld country allegiances.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Think your views are still very much shaped by the way things appeared to be on the surface 5 to 10 years ago when the Lynx were struggling to draw anything even vaguely resembling a crowd and even Vancouver and Montreal were struggling to make much headway. Before TFC started up there was a real question as to whether they would be able to draw much of a crowd. From what I can see it's the second generation who grew up with an exposure to soccer through their parent's "auld country allegiances" that have tended to really embrace the team as their own and have been willing to buy season tickets in Argos sort of numbers. That's a demographic that has plenty of growth potential hence why TSN have jumped on the bandwagon.

[Macksam]

McLuhan? Nice segue to irrelevancy.

There is only one basic problem with your arguments. People in Canada don't want to watch soccer. It's as simple as that and unlikely to change. Wouldn't the introduction of a new franchise be the impetus for curiosity? How were the ratings of TFC in the first year when they should have been good, if people were interested? The ratings don't lie, people don't watch soccer in Canada on a normal basis.

You can put all the pompous boor spin you want on it but you can't hide from the cold hard truth. Canadians don't like to watch soccer on television (on a regular basis)

But people in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal do, and that is a huge factor.

[jpg75]

Some people in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal do....

[Macksam]

Some people in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal do....

"People in Canada don't want to watch soccer."

"But people in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal do, and that is a huge factor"

Yes, but when you put these two statements next to each other, the latter is more accurate.