Can Soccer dethrone Hockey as Canada's national game?

[Joe MacCarthy]

So you never said the tsn broadcast won't be popular. You said you didn't know. Fantastic.

Can you read? I said I don't know but I have my doubts. You still haven't come up with any facts to discredit the numbers. Still waiting...

Jpg just gave you Chris Zelkovich's bio, so your CFL fanboy bs is discredited, come up with some facts.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Is that your opinion? Your hypocritcal posts don't make you look too good.

Don't attack me attack my numbers, you and BBTB can't so you go after me. Fine and dandy.

[Macksam]

Don't attack me attack my numbers, you and BBTB can't so you go after me. Fine and dandy.

How did I go after you?

As fr BBTB, you did that to yourself when you had the audacity to suggest that soccer guys are the pathetic ones with the baseball bashing when there is a lot more evidence to suggest it's the other way around. To even suggest that makes you look like a joke and a half.

[jpg75]

I'd just like to point out that i'm happy just having a team in MLS and seeing Vancouver and Montreal join us. I sure as hell hope the league continues to grow and that the ratings pick up and match the enthusiasm in the stands, but I don't think anyone should be taking the recent success of MLS and Soccer in NA for granted. **** can happen and the rug can be pulled out from under you at any time. Look at the US economy, they're $14 Trillion in debt! If things don't bounce back and credit starts getting tightened the first thing to go is always entertainment. Let's stand before we walk.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Typical protectionist attitude. You're afraid of how things are changing, and going to continue changing, you adamently try to cite stuff to prove a point. How are you going to feel when TFC outdraw the Argos in both ratings and paid attendance by the end of the decade?

As of yet you have posted no facts only opinion. Could TFC outrate and outdraw the Argos yup, could happen, but as of right now attendances are virtually identical and TV ratings aren't even close (refer to the article that you refuse to accept)

Because you are so good at giving opinion with no fact, how about telling me where this growth in ratings is going to happen. How old is TFC (going on 5?) have the ratings grown? No. When TSN shows TFC vs RSL will the fans of the Impact and Whitecaps watch? I wouldn't bet the farm on that but we'll have to wait to find out.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Don't attack me attack my numbers, you and BBTB can't so you go after me. Fine and dandy.

In reality the person who has been making direct personal attacks in this thread has been the person who has written stuff like this.

To paraphrase Ric Flair "To beat the pompous boor you have to be the pompous boor"

Beyond that where exactly is this stunning analysis that you think you have provided in this thread? A league that has been entrenched for decades and which still gets way more extensive coverage in the mainsteam media and significantly better broadcast timeslots gets significantly better ratings than one that arrived on the scene as recently as 2007 and we are supposed to see that as some kind of setback rather than what would always have been expected? TSN gave MLS a six year deal because industry insiders clearly saw the numbers as very promising under the circumstances. If the numbers genuinely were pathetic Gol TV would have got the contract because nobody else would have been interested.

[Joe MacCarthy]

you did that to yourself when you had the audacity to suggest that soccer guys are the pathetic ones with the baseball bashing when there is a lot more evidence to suggest it's the other way around.

You've been here since 2007 and say that? That can't be right. Irrational hatred of baseball is the number one sport around here possibly lessened by the absence of our good Dutch friend.

[Joe MacCarthy]

In reality the person who has been making direct personal attacks in this thread has been the person who has written stuff like this.

I called you a pompous boor because you are a pompous boor and everyone here knows it and now someone is lecturing you back for a change and you don't like it. Live with it. You trying to play the victim now is laughable.

A league that has been entrenched for decades and which still gets way more extensive coverage in the mainsteam media and significantly better broadcast timeslots gets significantly better ratings than one that arrived on the scene as recently as 2007 and we are supposed to see that as some kind of setback rather than what would always have been expected?

And why is that? Because soccer is a niche sport in Canada and most people don't like it. Simple as that. That will all change if and when people start watching, until now they haven't.

Love to stay and argue but I gotta go to work so get your shots in now. My reply is in the article I posted, those facts are all that are warranted.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I called you a pompous boor because you are a pompous boor and everyone here knows it and now someone is lecturing you back for a change and you don't like it. Live with it. You trying to play the victim now is laughable.

So you are the person who has been making direct personal attacks in this thread not me and you had no right to pretend otherwise in previous posts. To claim that most people in Canada dislike soccer is absurd. Look no further than last year's World Cup ratings. It is MLS that is still a league with niche appeal not the sport in general.

[paul-collins]

He'd never get away with that on a hockey board!

[Keegan]

Kind of an aside from this argument but one thing I need to add in is that being a soccer fan in this country is becoming more of the "cool" thing to do and that is a major advantage. If you tell someone you were at a TFC game on the weekend everyone wants to hear about it.... Argos, not so much.

It really is everywhere, if you walk around the Eaton centre for example Toronto FC gear is front and centre while if you are looking for gridiron you are more likely to find NFL gear than Argos. I am a huge blackhawks fan and we just made a trade for Chris Campoli literally while I was reading this... I search Chris Campoli on google and one of the first images is him and his girlfriend in Toronto FC gear... the change is obvious for all to see, regardless of what the numbers say. With two more MLS teams who knows how much football will explode but I think if you listen to the most knowledgable people in this country they will tell you its going to be HUGE.

[paul-collins]

I remember the slow death of the Rough Riders, living in Ottawa at the time, and Toronto's CFL vibe has always felt similar to me. CFL is very strong across the left half of the nation, and the TiCats folks seem to be going through a renaissance. Montreal's move onto McGill campus was also a stroke of genius.

But I do think MLSE has started on the right foot in Toronto. I'm excited to see if Vancouver and Montreal can duplicate the success in soccer.

[CanadianSpur]

Interesting debate on here but any attempt to compare CFL rating with MLS/TFC rating is comparing apples to oranges.

CFL is an 8 team league with a footprint covering most of Canada. MLS is represented in only one market by one team. No matter what anyone's opinion is on the longterm prospects for soocer it would miraculous if the CFL did not dominate the ratings. CFL has seen great growth thanks in large part to the coverage provided by TSN. CFL should continue to grow but the upside is limited as it already has great ratings. Given the current humble MLS presence, soccer's growth potential is very high. TSN now has a vested interest in the growth of MLS so we should expect improved coverage including improved highlight packages and additional programming beyond match coverage. Will soccer overtake CFL? Who knows. Will it close the gap? Almost assuredly.

[red card]

Nearly all types of soccer ratings really don't match up well with the CFL. Only some late stage World Cup matches in 2010 finally started approaching CFL numbers. And the WC 2010 final number of 5 million+ finally made it to the big leagues. But week-to-week EPL numbers are mostly in TFC territory - sub 100k. With the Champions League final on Saturday afternoon this year - will be interested to see if it can generate numbers similar to major Saturday afternoon sports matches.

With each World Cup, the numbers are improving across the Cdn soccer tv landscape but the gains are incremental rather than HUGE. Yes, soccer has more room to grow than the CFL especially since it has the leverage to international exposure. But CFL ratings have grown more than soccer ratings in the past 5 years.

So, soccer could be like basketball, lots of buzz and treated as a major pro league sport by the media and Cdns generally but the ratings for MLS and of other leagues have a hard time going above 200k. So, it becomes a la Olympics where WC & Euros generate major numbers but on a day-today basis, there is a huge fall off.

Another scenario is that ratings for European club matches and WC become/approach big time status while MLS ratings languish because there is so much soccer to watch on tv. Why watch an inferior MLS product especially when the local team isn't playing. Basically MLS needs to mature and follow more of the principles of world football leagues if they don't want to be choice #3 or 5 or no choice at all unless the local team does good.

[Joe MacCarthy]

^^That sums it up pretty well, IMO

[CanadianSoccerFan]

Only some late stage World Cup matches in 2010 finally started approaching CFL numbers. And the WC 2010 final number of 5 million+ finally made it to the big leagues. .

Not true. Games were in the million viewer range (similar to the CFL) right from the start without counting hundreds of thousands streaming on-line. The only games that slipped down to 600K were the 7 am kick-offs.

https://mediasales.cbc.ca/content/msmcontent.aspx?folderid=1705&contentid=18830&locale=4105

[Macksam]

As of yet you have posted no facts only opinion. Could TFC outrate and outdraw the Argos yup, could happen, but as of right now attendances are virtually identical and TV ratings aren't even close (refer to the article that you refuse to accept)

Because you are so good at giving opinion with no fact, how about telling me where this growth in ratings is going to happen. How old is TFC (going on 5?) have the ratings grown? No. When TSN shows TFC vs RSL will the fans of the Impact and Whitecaps watch? I wouldn't bet the farm on that but we'll have to wait to find out.

Attendances are vitrually identical? How about you give us a link with actual paid attendance for the Argos for starters. Also, I don't refuse to accept your article. I'm just asking you to show me one that breaks it down by region so we can actually see how many in the GTA watch the Argos. Let's take it a step further, let's see how many of that 500 000 are from the coveted 18-35 demographic that sports marketers love to go after. I don't think you would like the results in all honesty when you break it down where it matters most.

[finchster]

Let's take it a step further, let's see how many of that 500 000 are from the coveted 18-35 demographic that sports marketers love to go after.

Here is an article refering to the sucess of the CFL to get younger viewers to tune in.

CFL 'definitely going in the right direction'

Friday, November 26, 2010

DAVID PARKINSON

When Mark Cohon became commissioner of the Canadian Football League in 2007, he made it an immediate priority to target a younger audience. Three seasons later, the numbers suggest this isn't your father's CFL any more - or not exclusively your father's, anyway.

This season's television ratings show that CFL's audience is growing overall, and continuing to grow younger. Average viewership in the coveted 18-34 age group was 163,000, up 13 per cent on a comparable basis from a year earlier. Total audience, all ages, was up 5 per cent, the league said.

That key 18-34 group now accounts for 20 per cent of the CFL's total audience, double that of 2007. While the league's biggest audience still lies with the over-35 set, the demographic shift under Cohon is the strongest evidence that his marketing strategy is on track.

"They're definitely going in the right direction," said sports marketing consultant Mark McConnell of Flow Experience Inc. in Toronto.

"From a sponsor standpoint, would they like to see that next generation of fans? Absolutely."

Much credit for these inroads can be traced back to a controversial deal with TSN that predated Cohon: a five-year, roughly $80-million contract struck in 2006 by predecessor Tom Wright for exclusive television and digital rights for Internet, mobile and video-on-demand. The deal took effect in 2008 and includes a TSN-held option for an additional year, which would take it to the end of 2013.

Critics at the time slammed the league for giving away too much for too little, but both the league and sports-marketing experts agree that the partnership has delivered what the CFL needed: stronger branding, a bigger and younger skewing audience, and a growing sponsorship base.

The partnership has been a boon for TSN too. CFL broadcasts are their most watched property, with an average viewership of more than 800,000, exceeding the average of 714,000 watching TSN's National Hockey League broadcasts.

"TSN has been a great partner for us," Cohon said in an interview this week. "We've worked very closely with them in making sure that they're marketing us properly, not just during [CFL] broadcasts but throughout all their broadcasts, and they've made us their number one priority. I think that's brought more people into our game."

The per-game audience on TSN is up an astounding 133 per cent from less than 350,000 in 2007, although the league itself points out that this is an apples-to-oranges comparison. In 2009, BBM Canada, the company that compiles television ratings, switched from using monitors attached to TV sets to portable people meters (PPMs) - devices that are carried by survey participants and pick up signals from television broadcasts they are watching, regardless of where they may be. That change caused live-sports ratings to surge, since many fans habitually watch these events with friends or at bars and restaurants.

Still, the CFL says, the increase in numbers has been a boon to advertising and sponsorships, as PPMs have uncovered a larger audience watching its games. This year - the first full season under PPM - revenue from national sponsor partnerships has jumped 29 per cent.

However, after taking big leaps in 2008 and 2009, the pace of growth in the 18-34 share of game viewership has shown signs of slowing; it climbed a modest 1 percentage point in 2010. Sports marketing experts point out that youth participation in football in Canada is declining, and younger football fans tend to be more drawn to the glitter and fame of the National Football League. And, as many other sports leagues and businesses are discovering, that demographic is consuming information and entertainment in a perplexingly different way than their parents did.

"It's a real struggle for every sports organization to appeal to the next generation of fans," said Cheri Bradish, a professor of sports management at Brock University. "This cohort is totally different."

Meanwhile, the league is occasionally still sending mixed signals about which audience it is most interested in courting - as with its marquee Grey Cup halftime show. After experimenting with younger, non-Canadian pop acts such as the Black Eyed Peas a few years ago, the league is going with a pair of homegrown senior citizens - Randy Bachman and Fred Turner - as the entertainment for this Sunday's intermission. The choice is a head-scratcher for marketing experts.

"You are first and foremost concerned with your core fans ... [but] those sorts of promotional entertainment values are more important for [attracting] fans teetering on the fringes," Bradish said.

Three years into his five-year term, Cohon will give his annual Grey Cup week state-of-the-league address Friday. He'll paint a portrait of a league that has recast itself as a healthy, stable business.

On the sponsorship side, the league has focused on reducing its number of sponsors but extracting a larger financial commitment from each. The CFL now has 23 national sponsorship partners, about half as many as it did three years ago, but the average size of each sponsorship deal has risen 34 per cent over that time.

Royalties from CFL-licensed merchandise are up 150 per cent in the past three years. Reported attendance in stadiums league-wide has been holding steady throughout the decade (the per-game average dipped 5 per cent this season to 27,146, partly due to the B.C. Lions' temporary move to the smaller Empire Field). Plans are in place for a new Ottawa team to begin play in the 2013 season, and a successful regular-season game in Moncton this year has opened the door for a possible expansion into Atlantic Canada.

All eight teams have stable ownership, while six of the eight are either break-even or profitable. But the two that aren't - Toronto and Hamilton - get to the heart of perhaps Cohon's biggest failing: He still isn't winning over the country's biggest population and business base, southern Ontario.

The East Division semi-final game this month featuring Toronto and Hamilton attracted an average TV audience of 1.2 million, barely half the 2.1 million who tuned in to the West Division semi-final later the same afternoon.

"It's their biggest challenge, without a doubt," said Brian Cooper, a Toronto-area sports marketing executive. "This is a tough market to break."

"Southern Ontario is Mission Critical for us," Cohon said. "Toronto and southern Ontario is the media capital of the country and the corporate capital of the country. What I've said to our team is, let's play to our strengths. We are very strong with small business owners, with young families a little above the average income in Canada, and we're going to continue to focus on them. I'm not as worried about focusing on the Air Canada Centre crowd."

"I would be naive to say we don't have more work ahead of us in southern Ontario. But the future is brighter in southern Ontario, because of the changes that have been happening over the last few years."

******

Average television audience for a Canadian Football League game is 807,000, better than TSN draws for a National Hockey League game. So far, more than 11 million people have watched the four CFL playoff games on cable. Last Sunday, a record TV audience of 2.54 million people viewed the West final between Saskatchewan and Calgary, and 1.7 million watched Montreal beat Toronto, including 600,000 in French on RDS. The key 18-34 age group now represents 20% of overall viewership, an increase of 13% over last year. TSN's five-year contract for about $16-million annually? A bargain. Record viewership is anticipated for Sunday's Grey Cup rematch between the Roughriders and Alouettes. During Mark Cohon's term as commissioner, growth in sales of licensed merchandise is up 150% since 2007. Growth in the average size of a sponorship deal is up 35%. NFL-attuned Southern Ontario remains a tough hurdle for the league, but there isn't a single CFL franchise talking bankruptcy these days.

I don't think anyone is denying there are issues in southern Ontario, but other than that the CFL is a very healthy league. Also, like I have been saying, Mark Cohan is one of the best damn sports execs in the business.

[grigorio]

Here is an article refering to the sucess of the CFL to get younger viewers to tune in.

I don't think anyone is denying there are issues in southern Ontario, but other than that the CFL is a very healthy league. Also, like I have been saying, Mark Cohan is one of the best damn sports execs in the business.

Interestingly enough I'm in my mid twenties and don't know a single person in my age demographic or older that watches the CFL. I might tune in to one quarter of the Grey Cup but that's about it and I think same thing applies to practically evreyone I know... Makes it more difficult for me to comprehend these millions and millions of people watching.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Here is an article refering to the sucess of the CFL to get younger viewers to tune in. I don't think anyone is denying there are issues in southern Ontario, but other than that the CFL is a very healthy league. Also, like I have been saying, Mark Cohan is one of the best damn sports execs in the business.

Still no GTA related breakdown, however. I don't think anyone questions that there are parts of Canada where the CFL continues to be very popular and is likely to be the top summer/fall sport for a very long time so not sure what is actually achieved by posting articles like that. What is being argued is that in the largest cities that have attracted the vast majority of immigrants in recent decades the demographics are very different and the popularity of soccer as a sport is already highly comparable to the popularity of the CFL and a high quality domestic soccer league (MLS still has a long way to go in that regard) could easily eclipse the CFL in that context over the next few decades. The reason I argued earlier that this isn't a zero sum game is that I don't think the emergence of TFC significantly impacted the Argos because the sports appeal primarily to different groups of people. I must have met dozens of people through supporting TFC and can only think of one guy who could be sensibly described as a direct CFL to MLS convert. The bigger problem for the Argos is that people in southern Ontario from within their core demographic seem to lean more heavily towards the NFL than is the case in other parts of the country. I suspect proximity to NFL cities might have a role to play in that. It's easy to drive down to Buffalo or Detroit to watch a game. There are some very influential people in the GTA doing what they can behind the scenes to get an NFL team into Toronto. That rather than the emergence of soccer is the main existential threat to the CFL in the years ahead.

[Joe MacCarthy]

An older article but still relevant - JM

Toronto's disinterest in CFL an urban myth

Chris Zelkovich Nov 10 2006

The time has come to debunk an urban legend that's been hanging around for some time.

Interest in the Canadian Football League, the legend goes, is restricted mainly to those who live in places like Corner Gas' Dog River and bear strong resemblances to Hank, that fictitious village's official idiot.

Football fans living in the Toronto area are far too sophisticated to care about the likes of the Toronto Argonauts, the legend says, and are focused more on the National Football League.

It's a good legend, but there's one problem with it: Like all urban myths, it's not true.

A look at detailed television ratings shows Argonauts games are substantially more popular than any NFL match-up among Toronto-area viewers.

But they also show that if the Argos don't win the East final on Sunday, CBC will have trouble improving on the 3.2 million viewers who watched last year's Grey Cup game.

According to BBM Nielsen Media Research ratings, the seven Argo games aired over the past two months averaged 138,000 viewers in the Toronto area. NFL games carried by Global and TSN averaged 97,700.

Both averages indicate a lot of interest, but certainly no lack of interest in the Argos.

It should be noted this is an unscientific poll. The fact there were only seven Argo games compared with 31 NFL games means there's much room for error.

Since American network ratings aren't tracked in Canada, nobody knows how many viewers are watching NFL Sunday night games on NBC instead of TSN.

But since only eight Sunday night games were played as of last Sunday, the difference wouldn't significantly alter the outcome.

There are many other factors that could warp the numbers a bit. The CFL is at the end of the season and the NFL is just starting, for example.

Two Argo games were on Saturday afternoons when ratings are at their lowest, while the NFL has a more viewer-friendly schedule.

Regardless, based on those numbers, it's time those CFL-haters started admitting the old league isn't just a prairie thing.

This doesn't come as a surprise to Reginald Bibby, a University of Lethbridge sociologist who has been tracking Canadians' sports interests for years. Bibby's studies have consistently shown interest in the CFL is higher than interest in the NFL.

And he always felt the media underestimate the CFL's power in Southern Ontario. Neither does it come as a surprise to the league.

``In the west, next to the NHL, the CFL is the most popular by a long shot," says Chris McCracken, the league's vice-president of broadcasting and media assets. ``In the east, we're on par with baseball and the NFL."

But there is a downside to the ratings. They show there's little interest here in the rest of the league among Toronto-area football fans. Even if you factor in the number of 10 p.m. and Saturday afternoon games, interest here is basically limited to the home team.

The 24 non-Argo games played since Sept. 1 regularly outdrew the NFL nationally, but averaged only 40,000 viewers in Toronto. That's less than half of what the NFL drew here.

So if the Argos lose Sunday, the CBC won't be able to count on all those Toronto fans who helped push the Grey Cup ratings over 4 million the last time they were in the final.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Attendances are vitrually identical? How about you give us a link with actual paid attendance for the Argos for starters.

I gave you a link with the official Argo attendance. Anyone who knows David Braley knows he doesn't paper the house. I can't speak to what Cynamon and Sokolowski did but Braley does not operate that way. Braley is trying to rebuild the franchise like he did the Lions. That was not a good year for attendance, I think this year will be better.

If you want information get off your ass and find it yourself. I've proven my points with links and others here have disproven your misinformation with links, so don't be so f'n lazy and do some research on your own. You're making blanket statements and others are proving them wrong. Thank you fellow posters.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The 24 non-Argo games played since Sept. 1 regularly outdrew the NFL nationally, but averaged only 40,000 viewers in Toronto. That's less than half of what the NFL drew here.

This snippet doesn't surprise me and could be used to generate a very different spin by a writer with a different agenda. The Argos clearly still have a bit of a following (pre-Blue Jays they were very much the team people followed in the GTA in the summer/fall months after all) but wider interest in the league is lukewarm at best. Pretty much the picture I'd expect.

Move away from where there is a local CFL team in southern Ontario and I suspect interest drops away even more. I have never met anybody in London, Ont who has described themselves as a fan of a particular CFL team and have never heard people talk about it much beyond the Grey Cup maybe. Completely different story with the NFL and NHL, where people tend to back specific teams and will wear the merchandise and those leagues are daily conversation topics with a lot of people. Big change over the last 20 years or so has been that interest in the Blue Jays, which used to be very high, in that sort of regard has dwindled away particularly among the younger generation.

Part of that maybe is that as cable TV and the internet have grown it has been much easier to tune certain sports out and follow other interests. There was a time when channels like CBC could dictate what people watched to a large extent and forged a single coherent nation state oriented culture in the process (at least if the French English language divide is set aside). Twenty years ago I used to watch the Leafs and Blue Jays quite a bit because of that but now with digital cable and soccer webstreams available 24/7 from around the world I could barely even name a single player on either roster.

One thing I noticed a couple of years ago that I found interesting at the time was that Don Cherry criticized Mo Edu on Coach's Corner over goal celebrations. Definitely no coincidence that a TFC player features first in his short clip of soccer goal celebrations but nobody on the TFC messageboards at the time even seemed to notice let alone care.

Different groups follow their own interests nowadays largely oblivious to each other in other words and regardless of what Don Cherry thinks there is nothing unCanadian about showing a bit of emotion when celebrating a goal like this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZYhIEKf6Jk

or like this.

[Fort York Redcoat1555362293]

Can you read? I said I don't know but I have my doubts. You still haven't come up with any facts to discredit the numbers. Still waiting...

Jpg just gave you Chris Zelkovich's bio, so your CFL fanboy bs is discredited, come up with some facts.

Yes and I assume you can as well. Nothing I said was discredited and my intent was never to "discredit" your facts. The facts you so desperately cling to are of the past. That's not where my interest (or most of us in this thread) lies but in the future.

Also: CFL fanboy bs?

[Macksam]

Here is an article refering to the sucess of the CFL to get younger viewers to tune in.

Like BBTB has pointed out, I was referring to young viewers in the GTA.

According to BBM Nielsen Media Research ratings, the seven Argo games aired over the past two months averaged 138,000 viewers in the Toronto area. NFL games carried by Global and TSN averaged 97,700.

Thank you for validating exactly what I thought. The actual Argos viewership in the Toronto area is similar to what Toronto FC gets on their bests days. That is a worrying sign if I were the Argo's owner considering a 4 year old franchise has almost caught up to the Argos with regards to TV viewership in the Toronto area. If we can find out what the demographic of that 138 000 is, that would prove my second point as well. Thank you Joe.

Granted, I'm using the assumption TFC gets all their TV viewerhip from the Toronto area which isn't true but will suffice for this argument.

I gave you a link with the official Argo attendance. Anyone who knows David Braley knows he doesn't paper the house. I can't speak to what Cynamon and Sokolowski did but Braley does not operate that way. Braley is trying to rebuild the franchise like he did the Lions. That was not a good year for attendance, I think this year will be better.

If you want information get off your ass and find it yourself. I've proven my points with links and others here have disproven your misinformation with links, so don't be so f'n lazy and do some research on your own. You're making blanket statements and others are proving them wrong. Thank you fellow posters.

No one has proven me wrong. I was just asking you to provide relevant information (Argos viewership in the GTA), and when you finally did, you proved my point. It was like you were delaying your inevitable defeat.