Can Soccer dethrone Hockey as Canada's national game?

[argh1]

When soccer even gets close to the fan support that Major Junior and Jr A hockey gets it'll dethrone hockey.

Soccer is doing it from the pros down where hockey does it from the bottom up.

Major Jr will draw over 6 million this year and Jr A about 3 million.

Will be interesting to see how the GTA greets the Mem Cup this year in Mississauga.

The U-16 at the Canada Games last week played in front of 10,000 in Halifax

High School Football draws large crowds 5-6,000 for Provincial Championhsips and CIS if you remember the Vanier Cup compared to the CIS Soccer title in Toronto.

Yes soccer is growing and I hope it becomes a fan favourite but still a generation or way to go.

[jpg75]

"People in Canada don't want to watch soccer."

"But people in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal do, and that is a huge factor"

Yes, but when you put these two statements next to each other, the latter is more accurate.

Yes, you are less wrong then he is. Unlike what Joe says people in Canada do watch soccer, alot of them are from the big 3 urban centres, but their numbers are not as overwhelming as some make them out to be. There's a growing niche of Soccer fans right now and it bodes well for the future (as long as the momentum continues and something stupid doesn't happen to ruin it), but it's not like a tsunami of demographics is going to thrust it into the national spotlight any time soon.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Lots of talk, no evidence, and what makes the soccer numbers more pathetic is that they were on the national broadcaster which has a wider available viewing audience than TSN. I for one do not get TSN, my basic satellite package does not include it.

The page this article is on has several examples. Actually, pick the worst CFL rated game (Argos) and it still outrates TFC by 500k. I purposely tried to pick a normal week (no CFL playoffs, Labour day etc) Use them and there is no comparison.

Little love for Toronto FC on television -- yet

Chris Zelkovich 08/12/2010

The CBC had better be right about Major League Soccer.

The people's network recently jettisoned the Raptors because it felt ratings weren't quite good enough to justify those weekend time slots. On the other hand, it expressed deep and abiding love for Toronto FC, which would give its left halfback to get the kind of ratings the Raptors drew.

Witness Saturday's poor draw, the latest in a series of poor ratings for the MLS club.Since its inception, the Toronto team has been a major hit at the gate and a semi-disaster on television.

But this isn't a case of the CBC not realizing that ratings aren't calculated like golf. Low numbers are bad, not good, in the TV game.

The CBC's faith in TFC stems from its belief that adding two more teams in Canada over the next two years will ignite interest in MLS. A Toronto team that barely draws flies on television will see ratings soar once it has more Canadian rivals in Vancouver and Montreal is how the CBC sees it.

It could happen. But it also could be a repeat of what we saw when there were two NBA franchises here: Apathy.

Stay tuned.

Meanwhile, the CFL continues to dominate the summer ratings, though a near perfect game and a late playoff run by the Toronto Blue Jays helped their numbers soar.

Here are the most-watched sports events on English-language television over the weekend, according to BBM Canada overnight ratings:

1. CFL, Blue Bombers at Tiger-Cats, Saturday, TSN: 858,000

2. CFL, Roughriders at Alouettes, Friday, TSN: 853,000

3. CFL, Stampeders at Lions, Saturday, TSN: 795,000

4. MLB, Rays at Blue Jays, Sunday, Sportsnets: 760,000

5. CFL, Argonauts at Eskimos, Friday, TSN: 649,000

6. MLB, Rays at Blue Jays, Saturday, Sportsnet: 493,000

7. Auto racing, NASCAR Sprint Cup, Sunday, TSN: 448,000

8. MLB, Rays at Blue Jays, Friday, Sportsnet: 446,000*

9. PGA, Bridgestone Invitational final round, Sunday, Global/CBS: 339,000

10. NFL, Bengals vs. Cowboys, Sunday, TSN: 305,000**

11. PGA, Bridgestone Invitational third round, Saturday, Global/CBS: 255,000

12. Auto racing, NASCAR Nationwide, Satuday, TSN: 182,000

13. MLB, Red Sox at Yankees, Sundady, TSN2: 164,000

14. MLS, Chivas at Toronto FC, Saturday, CBC: 134,000

* 3 channels only

** Ratings for NBC not calculated

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Lots of talk, no evidence, and what makes the soccer numbers more pathetic...

You have to wonder whether this guy is actually a soccer fan? That's the sort of phrasing somebody like Bob McCoun would use in this context. By way of a reality check if the numbers were really so pathetic would TSN have even answered Don Garber's phonecalls let alone negotiate a six year contract?

http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/story/?id=353868

When soccer even gets close to the fan support that Major Junior and Jr A hockey gets it'll dethrone hockey.

If you read back through the thread I think you'll find that the consensus earlier on was that there is no real competition with hockey given it is a winter sport, while soccer is a summer sport, hence why the focus shifted over to the CFL as the main contender to one day be dethroned.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Don't shoot the messenger, argue the facts...you can't, so you attack me.

TSN needs content and they're also hoping they can spin gold with a property that no one else wants. There is nowhere to go but up. They're hoping the Canadian triumvirate will catch fire when they give it the ol' TSN treatment. Ask yourself why they didn't get TFC alone before this?

I really don't know if they can make it work or not but they are going to have to figure out a way to get Joe Sixpack interested because without the triumvirate derbies it could be slim pickins.

Funny you mention Bob McCown because I've recently become a devotee of his show. He has a good sports business sense and knowledge and I like how he pretends to know nothing about soccer to suck in gullible people like yourself.

[redhat]

Don't shoot the messenger, argue the facts...you can't, so you attack me.

TSN needs content and they're also hoping they can spin gold with a property that no one else wants. There is nowhere to go but up. They're hoping the Canadian triumvirate will catch fire when they give it the ol' TSN treatment. Ask yourself why they didn't get TFC alone before this?

I really don't know if they van make it work or not but they are going to have to figure out a way to get Joe Sixpack interested because without the triumvirate derbies it could be slim pickins.

You're absolutely correct sir.

[Redcoatsforever]

I for one find it a bit rich to see anybody who says something positive about the CFL get skewered, I also think that people here need to recognize an important fact:

When you continually tell fans of other sports that soccer is "the sport of tomorrow" or "the next big thing", it irritates the hell out of them. Everyone has been hearing about soccer's potential for years, but they only ever seem to see U8 teams playing it in their hometown. When we as soccer fans tell people that we want to displace the CFL, they don't like it, when you go further and call Canadian football or American football "pointyball", they really don't like it.

There are many types of football, and they can all coexist just fine, I have never heard someone who actually likes the CFL for the content of the game berate soccer outright. Everyone I know who likes football only goes after soccer when someone talks about how much better than football it is, and insults their favourite sport. I like the CFL, I think it's an excellent model (as of late) to work off of in developing our own league for soccer here in Canada, but with precious few opportunities for professional athletes of any stripe to stay in Canada and make a living, the last thing we should be trying to do is set Canadian leagues against one another, or to tear the only successful one we have to the ground because it isn't "our game".

Case in point, FC Edmonton have avoided Eskimo game nights like the plague in their scheduling. Whether or not FCE will succeed remains to be seen, but this is a smart move.

Finally, BBTB, stop "reminding" people that they're on a soccer board. We get it, you like soccer better than other sports, and so do most others here. It's kind of a prerequisite, and you're only being facetious. It's hurting the discussion.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Don't shoot the messenger, argue the facts...you can't, so you attack me.

TSN needs content and they're also hoping they can spin gold with a property that no one else wants. There is nowhere to go but up. They're hoping the Canadian triumvirate will catch fire when they give it the ol' TSN treatment. Ask yourself why they didn't get TFC alone before this?

I really don't know if they can make it work or not but they are going to have to figure out a way to get Joe Sixpack interested because without the triumvirate derbies it could be slim pickins....

TSN's investment goes well beyond the 6 year contract when you follow the money. Pending CRTC approval TSN are going to be owned by Bell Canada. The Whitecaps shirt sponsor deal with Bell is part of the richest sponsorship package in MLS. You don't spend that sort of extra cash on something you see as extra filler content. As for the Joe Sixpack stuff you overlook the fact that there already is a large soccer loving demographic out there in cities like Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal that doesn't necessarily coincide with that normally catered to through hockey and CFL coverage. Converting them into MLS fans is the key challenge for TSN but by putting games on in prime evening timeslots they have a much better shot of doing it than was the case with CBC's sporadic Saturday afternoon coverage.

[Joe MacCarthy]

I for one find it a bit rich to see anybody who says something positive about the CFL get skewered, I also think that people here need to recognize an important fact:

When you continually tell fans of other sports that soccer is "the sport of tomorrow" or "the next big thing", it irritates the hell out of them. Everyone has been hearing about soccer's potential for years, but they only ever seem to see U8 teams playing it in their hometown. When we as soccer fans tell people that we want to displace the CFL, they don't like it, when you go further and call Canadian football or American football "pointyball", they really don't like it.

There are many types of football, and they can all coexist just fine, I have never heard someone who actually likes the CFL for the content of the game berate soccer outright. Everyone I know who likes football only goes after soccer when someone talks about how much better than football it is, and insults their favourite sport. I like the CFL, I think it's an excellent model (as of late) to work off of in developing our own league for soccer here in Canada, but with precious few opportunities for professional athletes of any stripe to stay in Canada and make a living, the last thing we should be trying to do is set Canadian leagues against one another, or to tear the only successful one we have to the ground because it isn't "our game".

Case in point, FC Edmonton have avoided Eskimo game nights like the plague in their scheduling. Whether or not FCE will succeed remains to be seen, but this is a smart move.

Finally, BBTB, stop "reminding" people that they're on a soccer board. We get it, you like soccer better than other sports, and so do most others here. It's kind of a prerequisite, and you're only being facetious. It's hurting the discussion.

Amen to everything you said but if you really want to get the so called soccer morons to go crazy start talking baseball. Especially how well it is doing with growth and using new technologies to attract younger bigger audiences.

For too long here, I've read about people denigrating other sports to try and raise soccer and frankly it's pathetic, especially when the evidence (ratings) shows otherwise. Usually no one is crazy enough to mention hockey and it's usually baseball they denigrate. The funny thing is I see a symbiosis between the CFL and Canadian soccer. There are quite a few mutual fans. Perhaps it has something to do with both being so kicked around like the CFL was in the late 80s and 90s. It's great to see them shoving it in some media's faces.

As far as soccer and other sports are concerned as Rodney King said "Can't we all just get along"

[Fort York Redcoat1555362293]

Potential and a toonie will get you a double double, who cares.

Soccer in Canada is fighting many battles. Total apathy within the general viewing population and a fragmented market within those who are interested in the sport who prefer auld country allegiances.

I think MLSE is buying several double-doubles with money they saw in TFC. While I agree that TFC viewing numbers are miniature we're comparing it to programing that's been instilled for years. The attention the sport is getting is unprecendant and scoffing the rate of growth is towards ignorant. To expect "dethroning" viewing numbers is also naive in the first decade as far as I'm concerned.

But I'm not confused over the rivalry that borders on animosity between CFL fans and supporters of our game. They are in direct competition of each other and if you don't hear much from the CFL side it's because they don't need or want to know anything until the day they can't watch their gridiron on tv. THEN you'll hear the animosity in their voice when they talk of our game,

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

...if you really want to get the so called soccer morons to go crazy...

After getting this shot in with more Bob McCoun type phraseology he predictably tries to take claim the moral high ground. Here's something to ponder. What would the response have been to someone raising their head above the parapet and suggesting that soccer would eclipse hockey in youth participation terms within the space of a generation back in the 1970s before Pele arrived at the Cosmos? Even afterwards for that matter? Almost certainly would have been called crazy, a moron etc with much ranting and raving about how that could never happen in Canada. For all the outcry it would have provoked it still wound up happening.

[Macksam]

Lots of talk, no evidence, and what makes the soccer numbers more pathetic is that they were on the national broadcaster which has a wider available viewing audience than TSN. I for one do not get TSN, my basic satellite package does not include it.

The page this article is on has several examples. Actually, pick the worst CFL rated game (Argos) and it still outrates TFC by 500k. I purposely tried to pick a normal week (no CFL playoffs, Labour day etc) Use them and there is no comparison.

This post has too much irony in it.

Your first paragraph is laughable. You're the only person to my knowledge using the CBC's reach as an argument. Considering everyone else has stated that the CFL saw a surge in ratings after that league swtiched from CBC to TSN, you for some reason conveniently leave that bit of information out of your post. It seems like your argument uses evidence of convenience, nothing more.

As for the ratings, you have to break it down by region for it to mean anything in this context. Show me how many of those Argos ratings come from within the GTA. You should try again with your "evidence".

The star article is also nothing more than excrement written by a CFL fanboy. There are too many variables he fails to take into consideration.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Participation or daycare?

I always get a laugh out of these participation numbers as if they suddenly happened. Growing up in the 70s where in many places in Canada there was no minor soccer programs, soccer was played inter scholastically. I played school soccer not minor soccer. I played minor baseball and football because they weren't played at elementary schools in my area, in fact, believe it or not, hockey was not in the schools in my area at that time. It was not in the schools because it was in the community.

BBTB you can attack me personally all you want but that doesn't change the facts of the argument. Participation numbers have been high for a long time but that doesn't necessarily correlate to a viewing fanbase (at least it hasn't up to now)

[paul-collins]

TSN's investment goes well beyond the 6 year contract when you follow the money. Pending CRTC approval TSN are going to be owned by Bell Canada. The Whitecaps shirt sponsor deal with Bell is part of the richest sponsorship package in MLS. You don't spend that sort of extra cash on something you see as extra filler content.

Bell's advertising spending is deliberately local, and totally unrelated to TSN's move. The "synergistic" model you're imagining is more in line with Roger's MO.

Still a lot of cash spent, though. In Vancouver Bell sees soccer as a growth opportunity. There's no debating that.

[paul-collins]

But I'm not confused over the rivalry that borders on animosity between CFL fans and supporters of our game. They are in direct competition of each other and if you don't hear much from the CFL side it's because they don't need or want to know anything until the day they catch watch their gridiron on tv. THEN you'll hear the animosity in their voice when they talk of our game,

Wait until the Ivor Wynne stadium is rebuilt and there are no permanent CFL lines painted! Then you'll see where the real competition is.

At this stage, the heavy competition is about infrastructure. I'd wager a guess that if a balanced model of infrastructure investment comes about, the real battle for viewers will crop up. Until then, whoever gets to paint the lines gets to look like the important sport in the casual viewers' eyes.

[Joe MacCarthy]

It seems like your argument uses evidence of convenience, nothing more.

As for the ratings, you have to break it down by region for it to mean anything in this context. Show me how many of those Argos ratings come from within the GTA. You should try again with your "evidence".

The star article is also nothing more than excrement written by a CFL fanboy. There are too many variables he fails to take into consideration.

If you want to argue try using facts. I laid out the numbers, I proved the point, you try and do the same.

Buddy the writer isn't a CFL beat writer (in fact he used to follow the Habs IIRC) and he used BBM stats, so where's yours? What does breaking it down by region have to do with it? Evidence of convenience? Who's the fanboy? Try facts instead of opinion and I'll consider your argument.

You don't like the facts and a couple of you zealots have gone postal. The truth hurts, live with it.

I haven't said for one second that TSN televising the triumvirate won't be successful. I don't know, but I do know that televising regular soccer in Canada has been not very successful so far.

[Macksam]

Amen to everything you said but if you really want to get the so called soccer morons to go crazy start talking baseball. Especially how well it is doing with growth and using new technologies to attract younger bigger audiences.

More irony, it's actually the other way around. Baseball and other sports fans in general slag soccer. A good example of this is that terrible article you sighted. Is irony the theme today?

[amacpher]

Would hockey be as popular in Canada if TSN or the Fan 590 didn't dedicate 90% of their coverage to that sport? I think not.

TSN didn't exist when I was growing up and hockey was just as huge.

[jpg75]

Chris Zelkovich analyzes sports on TV, the numbers, the job sportscasters are doing and generally what is going on in terms of Sports coverage. I quite enjoy his The Good, The Bad and The Ugly break down of the weeks coverage. He is relatively unbiased and calls it as he sees it.

[Joe MacCarthy]

More irony, it's actually the other way around. Baseball and other sports fans in general slag soccer. A good example of this is that terrible article you sighted. Is irony the theme today?

Get serious, soccer means nothing to them and about the article I (the word is cited) exactly what in it wasn't true? He actually tries to minimize the damage that the numbers show for TFC.

Do you have any facts aside from your opinion, because attacking the validity of that article isn't making you look too good.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

BBTB you can attack me personally all you want but that doesn't change the facts of the argument.

Only one of the two of us has been using words like "boor" and "moron" in this thread and it hasn't been me. Conventional wisdom back in the 70s would have been that youth soccer couldn't possibly eclipse youth hockey in participant numbers because this is Canada and hockey is the Canadian game. Having done so attitudes amongst the younger generation about where soccer fits into the grand scheme of things in Canadian society are different from those over 40 years of age and how that unfolds in coming decades remains to be seen. As things stand MLS has a less than stellar playing standard. When/if that changes with better player development things that appear ridiculous to people at the moment such as MLS ratings more closely matching those of the World Cup amongst people who already know and love the game could become reality. People are investing tens of millions into soccer not out of altruism but because they think it could be the next NASCAR. A niche sport that eventually goes mainstream allowing those who got in on the ground floor to make a massive return on their investment.

[Joe MacCarthy]

TSN didn't exist when I was growing up and hockey was just as huge.

Ironically, I've been listening to the Fan590 regularly for the past year and if the Bobcat had his way there would be less hockey talk, he's sick of it. But the quote about TSN and Fan590 is totally laughable.

[Fort York Redcoat1555362293]

I really don't know if they can make it work or not but they are going to have to figure out a way to get Joe Sixpack interested because without the triumvirate derbies it could be slim pickins.

So you never said the tsn broadcast won't be popular. You said you didn't know. Fantastic.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Only one of the two of us has been using words like "boor" and "moron" in this thread and it hasn't been me. People are investing tens of millions into soccer not out of altruism but because they think it could be the next NASCAR. A niche sport that eventually goes mainstream allowing those who got in on the ground floor to make a massive return on their investment.

It is what it is and I call 'em as I see 'em. To paraphrase Ric Flair "To beat the pompous boor you have to be the pompous boor"

And apparently you haven't been following sports too closely lately, Nascar's run with the big boys is over, just like the dot coms of the 90s.

[Macksam]

Get serious, soccer means nothing to them and about the article I (the word is cited) exactly what in it wasn't true? He actually tries to minimize the damage that the numbers show for TFC.

Do you have any facts aside from your opinion, because attacking the validity of that article isn't making you look too good.

Is that your opinion? Your hypocritcal posts don't make you look too good.

I can cite Rome and Mcclown as pathetic baseball guys that bash soccer. Vice versa, you can't do the same.

If you want to argue try using facts. I laid out the numbers, I proved the point, you try and do the same.

Buddy the writer isn't a CFL beat writer (in fact he used to follow the Habs IIRC) and he used BBM stats, so where's yours? What does breaking it down by region have to do with it? Evidence of convenience? Who's the fanboy? Try facts instead of opinion and I'll consider your argument.

You don't like the facts and a couple of you zealots have gone postal. The truth hurts, live with it.

I haven't said for one second that TSN televising the triumvirate won't be successful. I don't know, but I do know that televising regular soccer in Canada has been not very successful so far.

Typical protectionist attitude. You're afraid of how things are changing, and going to continue changing, you adamently try to cite stuff to prove a point. How are you going to feel when TFC outdraw the Argos in both ratings and paid attendance by the end of the decade?