Can Soccer dethrone Hockey as Canada's national game?

[paul-collins]

You maybe need to have tried to extract registration money from recent immigrants from countries in the Middle East, Balkans and Latin America to understand the difference in mentality on what is and isn't a lot of money. Once the full season number starts to move into three figures you can usually pretty much forget about anyone other than those born and raised in Canada and better off western countries like the UK in my experience. The good thing about soccer and one of the major reasons for the registration boom is that it is usually possible to find ways to avoid that ($190 for 12 1 hour house league games is a complete rip off, in my opinion) although in the winter months it might mean playing futsal on a hardwood floor rather than playing at a fieldturf bubble sort of facility.

If I were to change your recent immigrants quote to "lower income participants" would you mind? I'm not sure where they come from plays all that much into your point TBH. Where I live we have lots of the ME immigrants and their levels of participation are similar in both sports - but they can afford it.

It's a fair point, though - there is sticker shock because of the large up-front cost. My point was simply that the cheapness of soccer is illusory if you're trying to keep your kid active year round.

On the fees: it was for 15 weeks, not 12, which is still expensive. An example that would be closer to your home is that in London the HL registration is about $150 for the Norwest Optimist club, whereas West London Minor Hockey registration is $495 for Novices (only $350 for Tykes - up to 6). Again, the per-session cost comes down for each, and improves things a bit for soccer, but it's still a bit of a wash.

As for lump sum costs being an issue, that's something hockey associations can - and will have to - address to keep their registration up. Our ringette association does that by allowing half-registrations for learn to play / skills development / house league. We also have an equipment loan program.

Anyway, my feeling is that comparing participation while not accounting for hours spent skews the numbers toward the summer-vacation-oriented programming which is lower commitment than what is done during school year, and so does not give a full picture as to the health of the registration numbers. I'd love to see soccer continue its growth but I think it needs to find ways to increase individual commitment (time per week; time per year) while keeping the recreational numbers up. If there isn't enough time spent on the pitch, there isn't enough skill development occurring for the game to remain interesting as the kids age.

[paul-collins]

"Still Close To Our Hearts"

Michael Adams, President of Environics

Globe and Mail, March 16 2011 p A17

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/hockeys-still-close-to-our-hearts/article1943150/

Are Canadians still connecting with hockey? In a word, yes. And the connection remains powerful. Environics periodically invites Canadians to rate the importance of various national symbols. Eight in 10 Canadians rate hockey as an important national symbol (close to bilingualism but way ahead of the Queen).

Hockey’s persistence as a national symbol is not a result of “old Canadians” clinging to an increasingly irrelevant pastime. In a survey we completed last year, 49 per cent of those born outside Canada say they watch hockey at least occasionally, as compared with 64 per cent of those born in Canada. Immigrants disproportionately name team sports other than hockey as their favourites, but 24 per cent of immigrants cite hockey as their top team sport (putting the game in a dead heat with soccer, at 23 per cent). Seventy-four per cent of immigrants agree with 77 per cent of the Canadian-born that “hockey is part of what it means to be Canadian.”

[Richard]

As long as it isn't NHL style hockey then I might agree, and I am a landed immigrant. International hockey I enjoy, but the bump and grind, head shots and fighting in the NHL put me right off.

[Joe MacCarthy]

the bump and grind, head shots and fighting in the NHL put me right off.

As opposed to the spitting, spearing, slashing and slew footing of international hockey. Holy Euro hockey sucks with alliteration Batman!

[jpg75]

^ You forgot diving Joe.

[Richard]

Say what you like there is a vast difference between the way international hockey is played and the NHL 'game'.

[Macksam]

Say what you like there is a vast difference between the way international hockey is played and the NHL 'game'.

I'm a soccer fanatic first and foremost, but there is no league/competition of any sport that can compare to NHL playoff hockey. It's some of the best stuff you can watch on TV. The UEFA Champion's League doesn't even hold a candle to it, and that's probably the second best competition out there. Saying you prefer "international hockey" just makes it seem like you're provoking.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Saying you prefer "international hockey" just makes it seem like you're provoking.

I don't find it provoking. I think he prefers his violence to be insidious and cowardly vs the North American mano a mano. If he's not seeing what happens behind the play in Euro hockey I would question his astuteness as an observer.

Personally, I'd rather have a punch to the face and see it coming and have a chance to react rather than a slew foot where I fall backwards and crack my skull. But I'm weird that way.

I had to cover a CIS game a number of years back and there was little hitting and/or defense. It was like an All-Star game, 9-8 final score, devoid of drama or intensity. I still remember it 20 some odd years later as the most boring game I've ever seen. By the way I love CIS hockey, just that particular game was brutal.

[Richard]

So you need hits to the head, goons fighting and brutality - what some call mano a mano - to make the game exciting. Then it's not the hockey you find exciting - go watch cage fighting, at least they don't pretend the bloodletting is anything but bloodletting, you should find it very exciting and manly.

[Keegan]

So you need hits to the head, goons fighting and brutality - what some call mano a mano - to make the game exciting. Then it's not the hockey you find exciting - go watch cage fighting, at least they don't pretend the bloodletting is anything but bloodletting, you should find it very exciting and manly.

That is so blown out of proportion its ridiculous. Thats the nature of the game not to be typical but it is what is it is.

[finchster]

International ice is far too big it leads to useless shots and less offence. Compared to the NHL, international hockey is VERY BORING and it is also dirty in a more subtle way.

Some people think that NHL ice is too small and leads to more injuries and dangerous plays. The action is enjoyable but players are so big now it might be time to think about changing the size of the rinks for player safety. The best solution is to use Finnish ice size. Finland does not conform to international or NHL sized ice rinks, they use their own size which is in the middle of both international sized ice and NHL sized ice.

This is one reason I believe Finnish players can adapt to international and NHL sized ice quiet easily compared to Russians who come to North America, or Canadians and American teams on international sized ice.

NHL 200ft (60 m)|85ft (26 m)

Finnish 200ft (60 m)|92ft (28 m)

International 200ft (60 m)|100 ft (30m)

If the NHL switched to international ice I would stop watching, if they made a change I would be open to experimenting with Finnish ice size. Finnish players are known for playing ‘like North Americans’ so I think this sized ice would still have plenty of hits and rough play but in a safer environment.

Anyway, combining soccer and hockey together here…

Anyone ever watch Bandy? It is a traditional Russian sport that is like ice hockey but played with a ball and with soccer like rules. It is going to be a demonstrator sport in the 2014 Olympics it is pretty cool game from the few games I have watched.

[jpg75]

^ Total agreement, the NHL is an exciting game for a reason and the International ice surface is ridiculously oversized. I've been advocating to anyone who will listen in this type of conversation that the solution is bump the size to 200X90. The argument is that it's too expensive to renovate arenas to international ice, but with a 90 foot wide rink all you have to do is add 2.5ft on either side which is roughly one row of seats. The comeback is that it's the most expensive seats in the rink. Well, if you move the expensive seats (Platinum) back one row and then the next (Gold) back one more you end losing one row of the least expensive (Red) lower bowl seats.

By the way, Bandy is played on an enormous surface, something like 250X150 or something like that. During the lockout Ak Bars Kazan and all their NHL stars played a game against a Bandy team and got their butts kicked - they couldn't keep up.

[Richard]

That is so blown out of proportion its ridiculous. Thats the nature of the game not to be typical but it is what is it is.

That's the nature of the game? That's why I have no interest in NHL hockey.

[paul-collins]

Yes, soccer is so much more genteel.

[Richard]

^ In general, it is.

[argh1]

In general soccer as much as I love it is far from over taking hockey as a spectator sport............but others will disagree..........

From my little hick province of NB attendance last night Fri March 19 for hockey.

Attendance last night UNB vs StFX 3650

Saint John Sea Dogs vs Cape Breton Screaming Eagles 6250

Moncton Wildcats vs PEI Rocket 5755

Jr A Woodstock Slammers vs Summerside Western Capitals 900

Now I now big city folk will poo-poo the lower levels of hockey. But really when will soccer equal these numbers in hickville?

Is soccer getting those numbers at the CIS, U-20, or even CSL levels?

[Richard]

It will, just be patient, especially if the NHL insists on continuing down the path of self destruction.

[Keegan]

It will, just be patient, especially if the NHL insists on continuing down the path of self destruction.

The NHL was A LOT more violent in the day some of the scenes of goonery from back then make todays guys look like angels

[Joe MacCarthy]

It will, just be patient, especially if the NHL insists on continuing down the path of self destruction.

Why does that sound like a quote from 1975?

[Joe MacCarthy]

Put-up or shut-up time for soccer in Canada

BRUCE DOWBIGGIN Globe and Mail Mar 20, 2011

Even to the jaundiced eye, the Major League Soccer debut of the Vancouver Whitecaps on Saturday was a joyous thing. With a sold-out, chanting crowd in the jewel box of Empire Field and captured by TSN on a sunny spring afternoon (hey, it’s Vancouver), the newly minted heroes thrashed Toronto FC 4-2. If this is the future of soccer in Canada, bring it on.

The problem is we’ve been here before – in Vancouver, especially. The Whitecaps have won championships, then had their horse shot out from under them when leagues folded. The history of soccer in Canada is a smoking battlefield littered with the corpses of people who thought, “Here, now... Soccer!”

Why should we think this time will be different? Well, soccer is not balkanized to the far end of the TV dial, seen by zealots alone. The sparring partners of Canadian sports TV – TSN and Rogers Sportsnet – have gone all-in on the MLS relaunch, grabbing national MLS rights (TSN) and individual team rights (TSN, Sportsnet). They’re also going to rumble over rights to Montreal’s club, which graduates to MLS next season.

Last summer, CBC cast its lot with soccer by devoting acres of time to the World Cup in South Africa. While rights payments range anywhere from significant to puny, it gives evidence of some growth. MLS is also weaning itself off the David Beckham quick-fix formula, producing homegrown stars to market.

Toronto FC has worked a formula of bandbox stadium and slick marketing to gain a foothold in Toronto’s competitive sports market. Meanwhile, corporations, governments and sponsors have jumped on soccer hoping to benefit from the assumed multicultural buzz. The prospectus is promising.

Except … despite the TV ratings success of the World Cup there was no concurrent bump for MLS ratings. Toronto FC hovered in mediocre levels for national programming. There are signs that the novelty of an underachieving team at BMO Field in downtown Toronto has peaked (Vancouver’s thrashing of them Saturday is ominous). Vancouver and Montreal promise to have devoted followings in the stands their first few years, but will it translate into a larger population or TV audience?

For its huge participant base and the alleged grooviness of soccer in a country that fetishizes multiculturalism, we’ve had 40 years for the sport to move into mainstream and it hasn’t happened. As one simple example, TSN chose British play-by-play announcer Luke Wileman. Why, in all the years of Canadian soccer, has no young person emerged as the definitive TSN voice of the game in Canada?

It’s a small thing, but then Canadian soccer needs all the small things to go right. One thing is certain, it’s soccer’s put-up-or-shut-up moment in this country.

[Bertuzzi44]

The NHL was A LOT more violent in the day some of the scenes of goonery from back then make todays guys look like angels

This is very true. People are just more sensitive to it now. Also, we know more about head injuries, etc.

You think people weren't getting concussions back in the day? ESPECIALLY the many years NHLers DIDN'T WEAR HELMETS! No way.

I think the easy answer to this thread is "no".

[finchster]

This is very true. People are just more sensitive to it now. Also, we know more about head injuries, etc.

You think people weren't getting concussions back in the day? ESPECIALLY the many years NHLers DIDN'T WEAR HELMETS! No way.

I think the easy answer to this thread is "no".

I posted this question in another forum, so I will ask it here.

How many people growing up played a sport, ‘had your bell rung’ and your coach said walk it off?

Chances are you finished the game and you got sick later. I am sure the majority of people who have ever played a sport had a concussion once, and if you are of a certain age it wasn’t diagnosed.

I don’t believe there are more concussions in hockey; more research of concussions in the last 5-10 years led to more people being diagnosed. David Krejci of the Boston Bruins missed 2 weeks with a mild concussion (6 games), chances are 10 years ago he would have played in those two weeks and missed one or two games with ‘the flu’. Players are being diagnosed with concussions and kept out of the lineup for one week or two weeks, this did not happen even 5 years ago. In the 1990’s you had to be F’ed up to miss games with a concussion, now you have a mild one and you are out for a few days.

One thing that always strikes me is when someone states, “It is only a matter of time before someone dies on the ice.” Truth is players have already died on the ice playing hockey, at the NHL level and various lower levels not to mention all the near misses throughout history. Someone who states that obviously lacks any historical knowledge of hockey.

I don’t buy the argument hockey is more violent now than in the past, this youtube generation insures every act no matter how insignificant will never be forgotten and watched at will. 50 years ago when Gordie Howe slashed someone, that event was forgotten as soon as the news paper was thrown away, if the reporter choose to report it. That doesn't mean steps shouldn't be taken for player safety, but in sports there is always a risk you can get hurt or worse.

[Joe MacCarthy]

TFC has become a tough ticket to sell

GARETH WHEELER, QMI Agency

TORONTO - Looking for something to do Saturday afternoon?

Were you thinking about buying tickets and heading to BMO Field for Toronto FC’s home opener but assumed the game would be sold out?

If so, then good news as there are plenty of tickets available. The once hot ticket in town continues to cool off.

You want to go to the game with a buddy to see your Reds take on the Portland Timbers? No problem. Two tickets together are readily available.

Is your four-person family interested in a day out? What about you and five friends? And if you’ve got an even bigger party — think the Brady Bunch minus Alice — eight tickets together are still available. Ticketmaster.ca shows a wide array of tickets can be purchased in sections 104-to-106 in the $51.00 to $75.50 range.

The surprising number of tickets available has to be alarming to a club coming off four consecutive years of announced sell-outs for their home opener. Sources say ticket sales have been a massive struggle for the 2011 season. It appears the inferior on-field product and steep ticket price increases have finally caught up with them.

A poor performance in Vancouver in a 4-2 loss to the expansion Whitecaps on Saturday does little to whet the ticket-buying appetite.

And the thought of a rebuild for the team that has next to no team success is unbearable.

Toronto FC has long bragged about having a substantial waiting list in the thousands for season tickets. Yet it appears the ‘list’ may have been more smoke and mirrors than anything else, or those waiting for tickets have also soured on the team and the price tag. Many educated soccer fans who gave the Toronto team a chance from Day 1 have long since turned away.

For the first time since its inception, there has been a real push by Toronto FC to sell tickets this off-season.

Marketing dollars have been spent advertising half-season and single-match tickets.

Year 5 branding became essential after the club rode a wave of discontent during its season-ticket campaign. Fan protests against the club didn’t help public perception; a failing team with always be a tough sell in Toronto for every team not named the Maple Leafs. And despite Toronto FC essentially giving season- ticket holders Saturday’s game for ‘free’, overall rates of renewal are considered disappointing from where the team was at a short time before.

BMO Field was expanded before last season with the north-end stands.

The new stands were regularly far from full and virtually empty during CONCACAF Champions League matches.

Despite its on-field struggles, Toronto FC has always been able to lean on its superior attendance and stadium experience. With the prior waning, it’s clear the honeymoon is over for Toronto’s sweetheart club. Supporters may have unparalleled passion in the city, but the ticket isn’t Teflon.

Toronto FC’s box-office concerns may be only temporary, with MLS on the rise in Canada. Saturday’s game against the Whitecaps on TSN was the most watched MLS match ever in Canada television, attracting an average audience of 289,000 viewers.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

TFC has become a tough ticket to sell

GARETH WHEELER, QMI Agency

TORONTO - Looking for something to do Saturday afternoon?

Were you thinking about buying tickets and heading to BMO Field for Toronto FC’s home opener but assumed the game would be sold out?

If so, then good news as there are plenty of tickets available. The once hot ticket in town continues to cool off.

You want to go to the game with a buddy to see your Reds take on the Portland Timbers? No problem. Two tickets together are readily available.

Is your four-person family interested in a day out? What about you and five friends? And if you’ve got an even bigger party — think the Brady Bunch minus Alice — eight tickets together are still available. Ticketmaster.ca shows a wide array of tickets can be purchased in sections 104-to-106 in the $51.00 to $75.50 range.

The surprising number of tickets available has to be alarming to a club coming off four consecutive years of announced sell-outs for their home opener. Sources say ticket sales have been a massive struggle for the 2011 season. It appears the inferior on-field product and steep ticket price increases have finally caught up with them.

A poor performance in Vancouver in a 4-2 loss to the expansion Whitecaps on Saturday does little to whet the ticket-buying appetite.

And the thought of a rebuild for the team that has next to no team success is unbearable.

Toronto FC has long bragged about having a substantial waiting list in the thousands for season tickets. Yet it appears the ‘list’ may have been more smoke and mirrors than anything else, or those waiting for tickets have also soured on the team and the price tag. Many educated soccer fans who gave the Toronto team a chance from Day 1 have long since turned away.

For the first time since its inception, there has been a real push by Toronto FC to sell tickets this off-season.

Marketing dollars have been spent advertising half-season and single-match tickets.

Year 5 branding became essential after the club rode a wave of discontent during its season-ticket campaign. Fan protests against the club didn’t help public perception; a failing team with always be a tough sell in Toronto for every team not named the Maple Leafs. And despite Toronto FC essentially giving season- ticket holders Saturday’s game for ‘free’, overall rates of renewal are considered disappointing from where the team was at a short time before.

BMO Field was expanded before last season with the north-end stands.

The new stands were regularly far from full and virtually empty during CONCACAF Champions League matches.

Despite its on-field struggles, Toronto FC has always been able to lean on its superior attendance and stadium experience. With the prior waning, it’s clear the honeymoon is over for Toronto’s sweetheart club. Supporters may have unparalleled passion in the city, but the ticket isn’t Teflon.

Toronto FC’s box-office concerns may be only temporary, with MLS on the rise in Canada. Saturday’s game against the Whitecaps on TSN was the most watched MLS match ever in Canada television, attracting an average audience of 289,000 viewers.

Time for a market correction on the insane ticket prices.

[Richard]

It would appear that the perceived value is way below the ticket asking prices. Not good business, a major rethink is in order.